Current v1.13 Development Discussion

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I agree that Arabia is too stable - they survive and flourish far past the Seljuk and Mongol invasions in something like 80% of my games.

I think part of the problem is that the Seljuks almost never invade Jerusalem, which means they never suffer an auto-collapse for not having any Core cities, even if their core shifts from Arabia to Mesopotamia (in a few of my games, the Arabians never research Philosophy, but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule). That, plus the ultra-high religious unity bonus they get from their UP and Theocracy, is probably why they do so well.

I propose a modified version of Chep's suggestion about Jerusalem - let them keep it as part of their core while it is still centered around Mecca, but when it shifts to center around Baghdad, make it Historical. That way, as long as the core has shifted, the Seljuks will almost always collapse them (in my experience, they always manage to take Baghdad and Damascus, and are then defeated by an Arabian counter-offensive).
 
Does everyone share my observation that Arabia is generally too stable and too powerful?

If so, what should be done about it? Reduce tech rate, unit production ...? They shouldn't survive the Seljuk and Mongol invasions in any case.

I think it is well enough. In true history, if Arabs did well in their politics, a well-organized country can surely deal with tribal hordes - by diplomacy or army. Seljuks would be a formidable opponent but not impossible. The true test is Mongols.

How about give conquerors some exp or great general, like SoI did?
 
If you really want to destabilize Arabs, add Shia Islam.
There is no need to introduce another religion. Barbarian Buyids should be able to destabilize Arabs relatively early, before any Seljuks or Mongols.

In later years (right when the Ottomans spawn) Mansa Musa event could deal a sever blow to Arab economy, if they survived by then...
 
Does everyone share my observation that Arabia is generally too stable and too powerful?

If so, what should be done about it? Reduce tech rate, unit production ...? They shouldn't survive the Seljuk and Mongol invasions in any case.

I confirm. They are stable and powerful. I think that Egypt's indepedence stabilise them.
Some proposals:
*make Temple of Solomon to expire by banking (-50% research rate)
*reduce cape from shrines to 15
This will reduce maximum shrine income from +160 to +90

Others:
*reduce stability modifiers, Arabia should be shaky to unstable at full extend (Maghreb, Spain, Egypt, Arabia, Mesopotamia, Iran) (this will cause a frastrating abolishment of many cities trying to catch the 40% goal, but new states will be your muslim allies, so it's fine)
*add one more seljuk stack near Jerusalem. They will probably not take it, but it is historical to claim it.
*Arabia shouldn't enjoy stability from religious unity. Gameplay-wise it is overpowered, historically, it represents Shia and percecution of other religions
 
In later years (right when the Ottomans spawn) Mansa Musa event could deal a sever blow to Arab economy, if they survived by then...

Is there currently any effect of a Great Merchant running a trade mission, other than the gold boost to the originating civ? It could be interesting to give the target civ a (smaller) gold lump sum, coupled with a hike in inflation. Something else to consider when opening borders, perhaps.
 
I confirm. They are stable and powerful. I think that Egypt's indepedence stabilise them.
Some proposals:
*make Temple of Solomon to expire by banking (-50% research rate)
*reduce cape from shrines to 15
This will reduce maximum shrine income from +160 to +90

Others:
*reduce stability modifiers, Arabia should be shaky to unstable at full extend (Maghreb, Spain, Egypt, Arabia, Mesopotamia, Iran) (this will cause a frastrating abolishment of many cities trying to catch the 40% goal, but new states will be your muslim allies, so it's fine)
*add one more seljuk stack near Jerusalem. They will probably not take it, but it is historical to claim it.
*Arabia shouldn't enjoy stability from religious unity. Gameplay-wise it is overpowered, historically, it represents Shia and percecution of other religions


Why do you want to nerf them so badly? Would a strong Arabs make we players impossible to win? You can always abandon UHV. AI is weak enough.
 
Hello, historical mod?

Also, I'd rather have an historically strong Turkey as opponent.
 
Why do you want to nerf them so badly? Would a strong Arabs make we players impossible to win? You can always abandon UHV. AI is weak enough.

The shrines aren't only about Arabia. The shrines overpower anyone who controls them, so they need nerf.

As far as Arabia expansion stability it is more historical. Moors, Iran/Persia, Egypt, India broke off Arabia. So seing muslim brothers to break off you is more historical when you try to reach the 40%.

Abandoning religious unity is to balancise their UP. When an other civ percecutes a religion it recieves temporary instability and a period of anarchy in the city. Arabia shall experience some mallus. Historically, Shia and Sunni Islam among with other minor religions coexist, so it makes sence.
 
I am planning to nerf shrines for quite a while now, but it will take some time until I can implement the necessary changes. Making the ToS expire with an earlier tech is a good intermediate solution though.

Just wondering, what exactly does this entail?
It currently only affects the Roman conquerors for Anatolia and the Levant (Mespotamia isn't a Roman target area anymore), which only happen when the Roman conquest of Greece has been successful, and the Greek conquerors for Persia, which only happens after the Greek conquest of Mesopotamia has been successful.

"Successful conquest" means that no other major civ may have cities in the target area, and only less than half of them may be independent. Every conqueror event has a ten turn period in which it can occur, the first one where the condition is met triggers the event. If all turns have passed no event occurs.

This is meant to avoid illogical situations where the conquerors control disconnected territories because an intermediate conqueror event has been repelled, and to allow players to defeat conquerors and one point and not having to face them again further inland, which doesn't make sense.
 
please don't reduce their tech rate pre-renaissance as they really need it for their UHV (on higher difficulty levels this one is already almost impossible).

They have a high stability bonus from the religious unity their UP gives, so maybe they could do with a slightly smaller core (although...it already is only Mekka, Baghdad, Damasc and Jerusalem, right?) Maybe make Jerusalem historic after it flips to them.

higher cost for units could work, but as usual the important part for the human player usually is that initial conquest, so maybe giving them 1 additional camel archer at start for 10% higher unit costs is an option (or something like that)

We can also just change their UP so that they don't automatically remove other religions on conquest. I think it's already been discussed that the caliphates did not massacre non Muslims as they went but instituted a tax instead on them to encourage conversion.

That, and it doesn't make sense to remove religions like Christianity or Zoroastrianism from those regions when they still have a presence there today, however minor.
 
New commit:
- increased Arabian unit and city upkeep and unit cost
- increased Turkish unit and city upkeep
- reduced Turkish unit costs
- Arabian UP does not remove foreign religions anymore
- Temple of Solomon expires with Banking
- additional Seljuk conquerors against Arabia
- Seljuks also target Jerusalem
 
It is.
 
Are we supposed to not be able to convert to Zoroastrianism? I understand that it's significance in world history declined after Persia but if the religion made it's way to all cities in an empire, the player should still be able to convert to it.

What I mean is that if Zoroastrianism spread to a civ like Babylon, with only one city and that one religion, the player should be able to convert to Zoroastrianism, no?
 
You can convert if at least one city has it present, same as any other religion. Unless you're running Pantheon or Secularism as your Religion Civic - then you can't have a state religion at all until you switch to something else.
 
It is, actually. You just need to use the scroll bar. Same as if, for whatever reason, you want to switch to no state religion without running Pantheon or Secularism.
 
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