Nvidia GeForce

Urgh. What a load of rubbish. I cannot understand how this company ever came to be popular.

Their products draw more power, have unstable drivers, and work with fewer motherboards than any of their competitors. Why the haven't they gone bankrupt?

I wish they would hurry up and die, and I feel this is the natural response to owning any their graphics processors.

The latest drivers work for DirectDraw, but caused Blue Screen of Death and spontaneous restarts in Direct3D and OpenGL. What bloody use is that?

Before blaming Nvidia, I updated my motherboard BIOS and installed the latest versions of DirectX and AGP drivers. This didn't help. Nothing helped. The graphics card drivers were just completely defunkt.

Microsoft BSOD pointed the finger at nv_disp.dll (primary graphics driver).

So I downgraded to version 6.13 (8/2002) and now it passes basic OpenGL and Direct3D tests (i.e. DXDIAG) - proving that my problems are definately being caused nvidia driver problem and nothing else.

However, the old drivers don't work in Unreal Tournament. There's texture tearing (Direct3D) and render device errors (OpenGL).

Each download is big. I really don't want to embark on trial and error to find the best version released between 2002 and 2005!

I also heard that the latest Nvidia graphics hardware don't work at lower refresh rates, so you need to check monitor specifications before purchase. The only explanation for limited range of support, is that they use cheaper components.

From what I can tell, NVidia..

1. Fail in keeping to AGP specifications (require extra power)
2. Fail to maintain industry standard VESA specifications for refresh rates etc.
3. Fail to release stable drivers
4. Fail to make quality products

Fans are quick to blame motherboard manufacturers, but it's not their fault that NVidia cannot produce parts to industry specifications, and it's not their place to bend over backwards to accomodate shoddy hardware.

Notice also how there's no comeback: There's nobody to complain to, because NVidia don't assemble the devices. Agents stick the NVidia chips to a PCB, put the card in a pretty box, and bundle NVidia drivers. Beyond build quality, they haven't any input so they too are blameless. Having everyone blameless is just a farce.

Also, they recently won a technology award for SLI. Didn't I see that on the Voodoo2 about a decade ago?

At least with 3dfx you could be sure the cards worked. So I wonder, has anyone enjoyed owning a GeForce? Has NVidia lost the edge?

stormbind said:

Urgh. What a load of rubbish. I cannot understand how this company ever came to be popular.

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Easy. They made and sold great products. Not only in the video card line, but also by producing one of the hottest selling chipsets for motherboards: nForce

stormbind said:

Their products draw more power, have unstable drivers, and work with fewer motherboards than any of their competitors. Why the haven't they gone bankrupt?

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Works with fewer motherboards? What on earth are you basing that on?

stormbind said:

I wish they would hurry up and die, and I feel this is the natural response to owning any their graphics processors.

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Your wish is unlikely to happen anytime soon. Right now, I wish I had a 6600 GT or a 6800 Ultra.

stormbind said:

The latest drivers work for DirectDraw, but caused Blue Screen of Death and spontaneous restarts in Direct3D and OpenGL. What bloody use is that?

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Bad luck for you.

stormbind said:

Before blaming Nvidia, I updated my motherboard BIOS and installed the latest versions of DirectX and AGP drivers. This didn't help. Nothing helped. The graphics card drivers were just completely defunkt.

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I'm still trying to figure out what card you have, but alas, it is nowhere to be found in your thread!

stormbind said:

So I downgraded to version 6.13 (8/2002) and now it passes basic OpenGL and Direct3D tests (i.e. DXDIAG) - proving that my problems are definately being caused nvidia driver problem and nothing else.

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You do know that depending on the card you are using, sometimes upgrading the drivers wont give you any performance gain, right? For example, on the GeForce Ti200, the best drivers for it are still the 31.xx (or something like that, it's been years since I last used the card). The latest drivers usually have updates for the more recent cards, while the older cards don't always react positively to the newer drivers.

stormbind said:

However, the old drivers don't work in Unreal Tournament. There's texture tearing (Direct3D) and render device errors (OpenGL).

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Have you tried using third party drivers? Eg: Omega.

stormbind said:

Each download is big. I really don't want to embark on trial and error to find the best version released between 2002 and 2005!

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Roughly 20 MB, yes. ATI offers roughly the same size download for each of their driver sets.

stormbind said:

I also heard that the latest Nvidia graphics hardware don't work at lower refresh rates.

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Source?

stormbind said:

1. Fail in keeping to AGP specifications (require extra power)

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Well then ATI must fail at that, too.

stormbind said:

2. Fail to maintain industry standard VESA specifications for refresh rates etc.

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Source?

stormbind said:

3. Fail to release stable drivers

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Actually, nVidia has been known to keep up with stable driver sets and constant updates. ATI, on the other hand, has been thoroughly criticized for having horrid driver support and updates - this is now changing since ATI is getting their act together and releasing constant updates. They still don't beat nVidia's driver support yet.

stormbind said:

4. Fail to make quality products

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Ah, I see. This is why the 6600 and 6800 are more popular than their ATI counterparts right now. It much be because they fail to make quality products.

stormbind said:

Fans are quick to blame motherboard manufacturers, but it's not their fault that NVidia cannot produce parts to industry specifications, and it's not their place to bend over backwards to accomodate shoddy hardware.

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You're going off on a tangent.

stormbind said:

Also, they recently won a technology award for SLI. Didn't I see that on the Voodoo2 about a decade ago?

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You mean 6 years ago? nVidia bought 3Dfx out years ago and purchased the technology with it. SLI is made possible to us (consumers) again because of the new PCI Express bus interface. It brings performance possibilities to an unheard of new high.

stormbind said:

At least with 3dfx you could be sure the cards worked. So I wonder, has anyone enjoyed owning a GeForce?

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Has NVidia lost the edge? [/QUOTE]
3Dfx had its fair share of problems. Yes, they may have been the top card manufacturer in the past, but they were far from perfect. I absolutely loved my GeForce Ti200. When I bought it, it ran my games at a decent speed and gave me incredible shading textures for the time. It even ran Morrowind at quite impressive framerates. It is the best graphics card I have ever owned right behind my 9800 Pro.

stormbind said:

Has NVidia lost the edge?

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Well let's see. They have produced the top selling graphics cards for this season, including the 6600 GT, which was just released in AGP form. They are releasing the nForce4 chipsets on various motherboards, which includes SLI capabilities with PCI Express, among other various enhancements. They just signed an agreement with Intel to use nForce technology on Intel systems, which is excellent news for performers. Have they lost their edge?

Dude you need to try ATi Linux drivers. After that experience, I promise you would change your opinion. For ATi there is no such thing as x.org.

Jeratain said:

You're going off on a tangent.... Not only in the video card line, but also by producing one of the hottest selling chipsets for motherboards: nForce

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Oh, the irony

Jeratain said:

I'm still trying to figure out what card you have, but alas, it is nowhere to be found in your thread!

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That's because I have four different GeForce cards, which I think gives me a fairly well-rounded opinion. I also have four different 3Dfx cards with which to draw comparisons. You?

Jeratain said:

Works with fewer motherboards? What on earth are you basing that on?

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The findings of millions of GeForce users! I am not alone. Try a Google search for nv4_disp.dll

Jeratain said:

For example, on the GeForce Ti200, the best drivers for it are still the 31.xx (or something like that, it's been years since I last used the card). The latest drivers usually have updates for the more recent cards, while the older cards don't always react positively to the newer drivers.

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And there you have it.

NVidia bundle all drivers into one package, so that they appear to be supporting all cards, when in reality, they provide after-sales support spanning a laughable 6 to 12 months.

I can use the latest drivers for DirectDraw, but for 3D, the card in this particular machine passes diagnostics with releases upto 6.14.10.5x - and nothing newer - that release has some bugs in Advanced Direct3D settings that can cause the system to freeze.

As I pointed out, I'm having problems getting the cards to power Unreal Tournament. The game crashes with Direct3D and OpenGL, which is only a tiny improvement over locking the PC.

What am I expected to do if this driver release turns out to be incompatible with Painkiller?

Do you think I'm going to buy another GeForce because NVidia failed to keep my previous one updated?

When I worked in technical support, some years ago, good buying advice for laptops was to lookup a model from 10 years earlier - phone the vendor, and see if they still provided replacement batteries for it. The result would clearly demonstrate the quality of after-sales support and the anticipated re-sale value of your investment.

What are the results when applying a similar test to NVidia? As you pointed out, older cards don't work consistently with current driver releases.

Jeratain said:

Bad luck for you.

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Pretty much what NVidia will be telling GF6800 users in about 12 months time.

Comraddict said:

Dude you need to try ATi Linux drivers. After that experience, I promise you would change your opinion. For ATi there is no such thing as x.org.

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For me, there is no such thing as x.org - have you never read my opinions of that outmoded protocol?

stormbind said:

That's because I have four different GeForce cards, which I think gives me a fairly well-rounded opinion. I also have four different 3Dfx cards with which to draw comparisons. You?

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Four? Well obviously you thought that they were well-performing cards, otherwise you wouldn't have been foolish enough to purchase so many nVidia products. It may be an oligopoly in the video card market, but it surely isn't a monopoly. Not then and not now.

I have had, and still have, 3 Voodoo cards, 4 GeForce cards, and 2 ATI cards. The Voodoo Banshee was possibly the worst card I had worked with. The GeForce 4 I had was crapper than my GeForce 3 Ti200, but that was for other reasons. Other than that, no problems with any of the cards.

Your problem doesn't seem to be with the hardware itself, rather the driver support offered to you. My question to you is, how are you installing your drivers? Are you simply just installing the new ones on top of the old ones? Are you uninstalling the old ones and then installing the new ones? Or are you going the proper route and uninstalling the old drivers, using a program such as DriverCleaner to wipe all of the extra DLLs that may cause conflicts, and then installing the new drivers? It makes a huge difference.

Also, don't take what I said earlier out of context. Newer drivers may improve how your card handles the latest DirectX, OpenGL, or whatnot, but it wont necessarily improve overall performance for your card. This is why some people choose to stick with older drivers. Some of the newer ones can add fluff that will actually decrease the framerate performance of their cards, and they don't want that.

This is also why many people use the Omega drivers or other 3rd party software and swear by them. Give it a shot for one of your cards.

If those don't work, find out what your problem is by going to http://www.guru3d.com/ and seeing what everyone else's consenus is on that card. They will go over the very best drivers for the particular card, and any work-arounds for your product.

If you're still not satisfied? Buy an ATI card.

Irregardless, millions of people don't just go and buy nVidia for no reason. And you'd be surprised at how much praise nVidia gets for its driver support compared to companies like ATI.

Jeratain said:

Four? Well obviously you thought that they were well-performing cards, otherwise you wouldn't have been foolish enough to purchase so many nVidia products.

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Not really - you prejudge too easilly. One is PCI and there really is limited choice in that market. I'll be selling it soon.

I want to give away the AOpen 440MX I'm currently messing with, but I want to provide it with working drivers.

My favourite is a GF3, which is probably the best chip NVidia ever produced. It's almost identical to GF4Ti in specifications and performance.

I also have 4x 3dfx cards (including a Banshee), 3x S3 cards, and 0x Ati - I did try to acquire a Radeon but was ripped off, so I think I can be excused for not owning it. Have previously owned a number of other cards including one from Matrox who provide excellent drivers - NVidia could learn a lot from them.

Jeratain said:

The Voodoo Banshee was possibly the worst card I had worked with.

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For me, the 3Dfx Banshee was a fine product. Difficulties arrise from there being at least five different versions but end users try to force the same reference drivers on them all - which is obviously not going to work consistently. The actual hardware was essentially a Voodoo3. One of the components even responds 'vodoo3' when queried. Dunno why it's spelled with one o

Incidentally, the Banshee has a higher resale value than Voodoo3. Paired with the current task, a properly installed Banshee will churn out 120fps or more in high detail. This GeForce can't even do 1fps

Jeratain said:

Your problem doesn't seem to be with the hardware itself, rather the driver support offered to you.

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That is my conclusion, also. But NVidia provide the drivers - even the 3rd party ones.

Jeratain said:

My question to you is, how are you installing your drivers?

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The NVidia uninstall claims to remove all files, profiles and registry entries.

I started with the newest drivers. 3D acceleration caused a Windows Stop Error! They did that even when trying the very simple DXDIAG utility.

I removed those, and installed the version on CD. These sucked as they lacked decent desktop controls, but they passed the DXDIAG 3D text. They failed when trying UT.

The currently installed drivers (specified earlier) are the most recent drivers that work with this card under DXDIAG (Direct3D 7,8,9). Given the features supported and compatibility, they are the best drivers found so far. UT actually started (640x480x16) with these, but the output was too dark. I increased resolution but it instantly crashed and has refused to use Direct3D ever since. This was a clean install of UT 4.36

Checking Atari (publishers of UT) technical support doesn't help much. They do highlight the GeForce256 as being a particularly rubbish piece of hardware, and suggest to use Software Rendering. Those were never considered rubbish when new, so it's probably another case of horrible driver support - reinforcing my desire to see NVidia burried.

Jeratain said:

Newer drivers may improve how your card handles the latest DirectX, OpenGL, or whatnot, but it wont necessarily improve overall performance for your card.

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The newest drivers cause a Windows Stop Error. This isn't a case of seeking performance.

Download Driver Cleaner and install it. Don't run it yet.

Download the latest nVidia drivers, or, if you know that they don't work for a fact, roll back one or two versions, which can be found at http://www.guru3d.com or by Googling for older drivers. Do not install the drivers yet - just save it on your desktop for the time being.

Uninstall the previous version of nVidia drivers by going to the control panel and using the uninstall option.

Reboot your computer into safe mode. Run Driver Cleaner. Follow the instructions and remove all traces of files for the nVidia drivers.

Reboot in normal mode. Run the nVidia drivers set and set them up as you normally would. Reboot as directed and hopefully you should be set. If it still doesn't work, then, as I said, check the forums on Guru3d and just do a quick search for the issue you are having with the card. If you don't find it, make a post describing your issue and people will help you out.

stormbind said:

For me, there is no such thing as x.org - have you never read my opinions of that outmoded protocol?

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I'm talking about x.org as in x.org vs. xfree86 , not about X11.

That has made things worse. I now get a General Protection Fault with what were the working drivers. And DXDIAG fails with:

Test failed at step 8 (creating 3D device): HRESULT = 0x887602eb (error code)

If you compare an old GeForce to 3dfx, S3, ATi, or Matrox... the GeForce comes out by far the worst product due to weakest driver support.

Product reviews don't take this into account. With NVidia, it's like you lease the card - and when the lease expires, it stops working.

Just to give my opinion, I bought my Computer in October 2002, over 2 eyars ago, and I have an NVidia GeForce4 64MB. Ok, its not the best Video Card, but, 2 years ago, it was probably the best i could get, the 128 was too pricy.

I have never had a single problem with mine. In fact, my computer has worked very well, one or 2 minor problems in over 2 years.

So, I dunno where you get this info, but from my experience, my GeForce has worked just fine. Granted, its old, but hey, it works!

I have now posted on guru3d - it's not hard to find my thread.

However, reading in that forum.. my jaw has just hit the floor. People on that site are happy with 90fps (1024x768x32) in Unreal Tournament. That's utterly abysmal performance!!

RealGoober said:

Just to give my opinion, I bought my Computer in October 2002, over 2 eyars ago, and I have an NVidia GeForce4 64MB. Ok, its not the best Video Card, but, 2 years ago, it was probably the best i could get, the 128 was too pricy.

I have never had a single problem with mine. In fact, my computer has worked very well, one or 2 minor problems in over 2 years.

So, I dunno where you get this info, but from my experience, my GeForce has worked just fine. Granted, its old, but hey, it works!

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It's quite obvious where I get the information from - 3D diagnostics!

Does yours work with 3D acceleration? Mine works fine on the desktop and in Civ3. It's specifically 3D that causes problems.

Umm, well, i don't have any 3D Games, so I wouldn't know.

Could you link me up with a tester? You have peaked my curiousity with this, I am interested in knowing if my Graphics Card does work as it should. I have yet to find a problem with it, it plays Movies, and non-3D Games just fine.

There's a DirectX Diagnostic utility in Windows. It's very simple, and it works for me with some drivers (not the most recent ones).

You can find it at: Start Menu > Run > DXDIAG

http://www.futuremark.com/products offer 3DMark as a much better 3D diagnostics & benchmark utility but it's a big download. There are free downloads. Note: GeForce4 are fully DirectX 8.1 compliant, so I don't know if the newest version works. 3DMark2001 definately should work though.

The only way to see if your GF4 does what I'm claiming mine won't, is to acquire a copy of Unreal Tournament (1999). It's an oldie but still good game - shouldn't be more than a few dollars in a 2nd hand store

stormbind said:

However, reading in that forum.. my jaw has just hit the floor. People on that site are happy with 90fps (1024x768x32) in Unreal Tournament. That's utterly abysmal performance!!

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90 fps is utterly abysmal?

Did you know that a 6800 Ultra gets 118 fps under those same settings in UT2k4? An X800 XT gets 116.1 fps under those settings. That's hardly better than 90 fps, yet you think that's abysmal?

Anyhow, I actually just built a computer for my dad's office today. The system specs are as follows:
P4 3.0C
512 MB PC3200 Dual Channel Geil RAM
Asus P4P800E
WD Raptor 36.7GB
etc.

You know what video card I plugged in? My old PNY Technologies GeForce 3 Ti200 card. I installed a slipstreamed Windows XP SP2 CD with all the latest updates from Windows. First thing I did was checked for any BIOS updates, which there was one, so I fllashed the BIOS. I then updated my integrated network card drivers and the onboard sound drivers. I installed Office and got the latest updates for that. Then I installed the latest drivers from nVidia (66.93s). I restarted the computer, and voila! Everything worked just fine. I'm not installing any games to test on the computer, but I've gotten no errors or problems (running at 1280x1024x32) under Windows, AutoCAD, Quickbooks, or any other programs. Naturally none of those are graphics intensive. But I did go ahead and run 3DMark, and it displayed everything just fine and ran the demo for the game it includes fine.

The graphics card is definitely a bottleneck in gaming performance on that system, but since it's not intended for gaming, it suits its intended purpose just fine.

Perhaps you're having hardware conflicts, your BIOS settings are wrong, corrupted files, or are lacking updates for your OS?

Jeratain said:

90 fps is utterly abysmal?

Did you know that a 6800 Ultra gets 118 fps under those same settings in UT2k4? An X800 XT gets 116.1 fps under those settings. That's hardly better than 90 fps, yet you think that's abysmal?

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That's a completely different game!

Yes, 90fps is abysmal for a new graphics card running UT which is now several years old. A game people were once playing on 4Mb Vooodoo 3D cards.

Jeratain said:

I've gotten no errors or problems (running at 1280x1024x32) under Windows

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Neither have I had any trouble in GDI. Keep to the topic.

You're trying to run a game from 1999? Okay.

First off, you could start off by posting your system specs, including what OS you are using, and if it has the latest updates. You never even posted what video card you're having problems with. Also, what version of UT are you running? And no, I'm not referring to which game it is, rather if the game is patched or not.