Re-balancing policies in a mod

Ninakoru

A deity on Emperor
Joined
Nov 14, 2002
Messages
658
Location
Madrid, Spain, Europe
Well, I am doing a path for policy balance, just for fun (I love this balance things). The patch is pretty done, but I seek some opinions from more experienced players. I have won on Immortal with Monty and Wu without too much problems, wu starting tradition and Monty honor.

Lets comment my changes and what do you think of them:

Tradition: Moved the expansion growth bonus to landed elite.

Reason: I find Tradition prety balanced and fluid. I would focus more the benefits on the first cities, but I think it's largely OK. Many people (me included) just get the tradition opener because is just so good, even if they will ignore the rest of tradition. Moving this to landed elite doesn't affect much a Tradition player, but discourage others to get just the opener.

Liberty, Patronage, Autocracy, Order: No changes

Honor: I am trying to boost honor without loosing the focus on military, and without boosting it too much compared to tRadition and Liberty. After all the others MUST get a much better setup based on policies, but I believe the gap is too big.

Opener: Bonus from barbs +30, minor culture from ANY enemy combat unit (50% strength). Alert from nearby encampments.

Reason: Honor was much of a random starter. Culture from barbs depends on settings, and luck. This gives the starter more stability and usage outside first turns.

Warrior Code: +10% production of any militar unit, +1 production on capital. General appear.

Rsn: Well, this one is changed to shorten the gap a bit. The +1 production gives a modest boost for production (this policy path is designed for early rushes), and the 10% production will help during all the game. This will save some valuable early turns building the first army, allowing to no get too far in setup looking at tradition/liberty.

Military tradition: +50% exp (same) plus two free-maintenance units.

Rsn: Well, the exp boost is quite good on its own. If you play heavy on troops, you already have a worse eco for not going trad/liberty, so this is a minor aid but pretty much needed. Another marginal eco option would be adding +1 gold per city, but I find this one more fitting.

Military Caste: Walls give +1 local happiness, Libraries give +2 culture.

Well, I wanted to tranfer the garrison bonus to the cities to liberate that much-obligated garrison (specially when you face happiness issues). This would give more troop mobility to the honor player. Something I find essential, because placing static units to get the boost defeat the branch purpose. Another option I was thinking of, is to leave the culture to garrison, but happiness to a building, so you don't have to go to unhappiness or amass junk-army just to get your empire happy.

Discipline and Professional army: No changes.

Rsn:I found them pretty fitting. Discipline is decent and professional is quite strong on its own.

Finisher: Maintained the gold boost, +50% boost when producing training facilities (barracks, armory, military academy).

Rsn: The finisher needed a boost. The gap in setup with liberty and tradition is still quite high, I didn't cut in half the production because military academy would save too much hammers.

Rationalism: Rationalism is a no-brainer most of the time, still will be the best option most of the time (tech lead/parity is top priority).

Free thought
: +1 science from trading posts, +7% sciente from universities.

Rsn: Well, a minor update to the most broken policy out there. A 10% downgrade in universities is not much but this way it feels less OP.

What do you think? Any comments are welcome.
 
In the Honor tree; would that mean that in your mod that completing the right side of Honor tree would result in Walls getting +2 happiness? (Your +1 for Walls from Caste & the +1 for ALL defense buildings that's already in the next policy down)

Also, for Patronage; I'd suggest any mod about the policy trim aesthetics from +20 down to +15 to eliminate the pledge to protect abuse.
 
I took a stab at this myself a couple days ago:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12406340

I made the mistake of "hiding" it in what I thought was the appropriate forum (Ideas and Suggestions), so there hasn't been much comment.

Perhaps you may find something interesting in my suggestions.

I don't like putting a Library bonus in Honor. Honor is about war, not books.
 
I actually think the current idea behind the Honor policies is fine, just that their effects are overestimated.

-Give culture to all kills, not just barbs.

-Bump it up to 30% for adjacent melee. Warrior line is weak as is, 30% is far from game-breaking.

-+50% bonus when training all combat units. Yes, 50%. You are still limited by supply cap and unit maintenance so I don't think it would be game-breaking at all. It just basically means you get the same size armies, just with much less investment in hammers (which in turn gets used to keep up with Tradition/Liberty's infrastructure)

-Either free walls or reduced build cost on all defensive structures along with the +1 smiley. Helps balance out the free monuments/aqueducts from Tradition and the free settler/worker from Liberty.


For Rationalism, slight reductions across the board would probably work. 10% on opener instead of 15%. +1 per specialist instead of +2. Remove the extra Uni science, keep the trading post science. Leave the 50% RA and two free policies as is. Even with those changes it would still be one of the better trees, but at least you wouldn't be punished as much if you didn't take Rationalism.

Order's +25% on factories is fine, but move it to later in the tech tree.

Patronage's Aesthetics is fine, but also move it later in the tech tree. I don't think either policies are overpowered, but the investment needed to pick up both is way too low.

Give Autocracy some sort of science and happiness bonus to compete with Order/Freedom (+3 on courthouses doesn't cut it).
 
Pledge to protect abuse has its downsides (losing relationships due to CS bullies) but yes, is quite powerful

No, pledge to protect has no downside at all; you just ignore all city state requests to bully if you've pledged to protect all city states. And you just say "You will pay" every time an AI tells you that they've done so and otherwise do nothing and its enough to keep that city state feeling good about the pledge to protect. (It does show up as red text with the AIs, but doesn't actually decrease trade value at all)

If the current full power of aesthetics didn't arrive until completing the Patronage, it wouldn't have the problem given the investment that would be required. I think BNW might do something about it given there's going to be a tree called it in BNW that concentrates on culture.

The other things that are too powerful for the cost are allowing Great People from faith simply from opening a policy tree. (Particularly GE from just opening Order). But I think BNW is fixing the Great people from faith problem as well. (I think these are now going to be "Reformation" options which will require completing the new Piety tree.)
 
I took a stab at this myself a couple days ago:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12406340

I made the mistake of "hiding" it in what I thought was the appropriate forum (Ideas and Suggestions), so there hasn't been much comment.

Perhaps you may find something interesting in my suggestions.

I don't like putting a Library bonus in Honor. Honor is about war, not books.

I'll comment on that post, I don't enter that section often.

Yeah, totally agree, libraries doesn't do anything with honor, they only stick well with culture. I was not happy with that solution so I have reworked it a bit, and I feel it fits quite well now:

+2 culture from walls, +1 happiness from forge and stable.

forge and stable are unit production oriented, it leaves some happiness up to randomness but the map layout also is, so i don't feel is out of the place.


Give culture to all kills, not just barbs.

Yeah, I've done it that way, but with half culture for both barbs and enemies. Less booming culture but more stable source as long as you are fighting barbs/civs.

Bump it up to 30% for adjacent melee. Warrior line is weak as is, 30% is far from game-breaking.

I find it unfair. I played with china and their 30% to generals, and it feels like cheating with supposedly weak ranged units tanking melee decently.

-+50% bonus when training all combat units. Yes, 50%. You are still limited by supply cap and unit maintenance so I don't think it would be game-breaking at all. It just basically means you get the same size armies, just with much less investment in hammers (which in turn gets used to keep up with Tradition/Liberty's infrastructure)

Again I feel is too much. You would keep production at higher levels than liberty/tradition even if you have to mantain. 50% boost to military units would mean you have more time to build infrastructure, that along with the military boost would make honor king.

Either free walls or reduced build cost on all defensive structures along with the +1 smiley. Helps balance out the free monuments/aqueducts from Tradition and the free settler/worker from Liberty.

Not bad, but I don't feel honor is that far away from the other two initial choices, many buffs would change the balance in favor of honor too much.

For Rationalism, slight reductions across the board would probably work. 10% on opener instead of 15%. +1 per specialist instead of +2. Remove the extra Uni science, keep the trading post science. Leave the 50% RA and two free policies as is. Even with those changes it would still be one of the better trees, but at least you wouldn't be punished as much if you didn't take Rationalism.

Yeah, maybe you are right on this one. Still rationalism is overpowered. I liked also the idea of removing the science from trading posts that kirbdog added to his ideas.

Order's +25% on factories is fine, but move it to later in the tech tree.

Well, factories discount on production is one of the key benefits of order. I would rather lower the science output, 25% for a non-science building seems too much.

Give Autocracy some sort of science and happiness bonus to compete with Order/Freedom (+3 on courthouses doesn't cut it).

Autocracy need some minor boosts also, yeah some happiness would be great. I don't feel the courthouse boost is bad. It can let you control unhappiness by anexing puppets, and 3 happiness is quite a boost.
 
Yeah, maybe you are right on this one. Still rationalism is overpowered. I liked also the idea of removing the science from trading posts that kirbdog added to his ideas.

Well, factories discount on production is one of the key benefits of order. I would rather lower the science output, 25% for a non-science building seems too much.

On nerfing Rationalism; just move free faith based Scientists from the opener to the closer which should eliminate one or two of them.

And if Order needs nerfed: Move the free faith based Engineer to the bottom-middle sub-policy. (That would be deep enough to make it difficult to reach when Rationalism is also completed.)

But given that BNW is turning Order/Freedom/Autocracy into ideologies anyway I'm not sure what the point is of modding those three.

On Tradition/Liberty/ (and Honor):

1. Increased city ranged bombardment & free garrison units would make more sense in the Honor tree than in the Tradition tree.
2. I'm thinking that all of the global benefits to Tradition should be limited to the first four cities. (such as the cultural expansion rate)
3. And I'm thinking that Liberty's free great person is very out of place for a tree focusing on building wide empires; (I'd remove it and move the golden age to the closer; I'm thinking have a sub policy that would allow +25% production when building colosseums + maintenance free colosseums.)
 
The free settler from Liberty needs to go back one to where it was before G&K. It comes just too late to be a real benefit, where as if you could take it as your second policy, if you open in a really good area you can plant that 2nd city on the river/coast/mountains before Hiawatha comes and sits a city right down next to you....

Just a thought.
 
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