Shoshone Overview- Aimed at Deity Pangea play

I also am not sure that non-Poland non-Shoshone Civs will be able to both fill up Tradition and get the two Patronage advances that seem to be key in a quick enough timeframe. I noticed that post-Patronage I am getting literally half my culture from CS, not to mention all the other benefits like happiness bumps, food, and faith. I'm not sure how I can do without it, even if it means having to wait 20 turns for that first Rationalism slot.

Well you can do it with nearly every civ, even on Deity...only the speed of your SV will differ from suited civs to something like denmark^^
When i aim for SV i get it usually done until turn 270-300 which is atm not a problem due to the fact the AI sometimes is unable to win and the late game progression of the AI is severely slowed down due to their useless city spam.
Sometimes its not possible to get the 600bpt at turn 200 but you should be always close to it getting 400-500 is viable too.

Another thing is the culture, in most of my games i have the same experience that all the CS that i ally giving me the majority of the culture my empire yields, esp. in the beginning.
Later on i tend to build some archeologists when i get some wonders with artifacts slots (but normally the herimitage and museum are sufficient). Due to the fact you aim for a SV getting the Hospitals and the food labs asap helps a lot so the ability to get some culture rolling in the industrials is always given (even if the archeologists are quite hammer expensive)
 
Hi all, first time poster, long time civ player.

I got my first diety victory ever about a week ago, using more or less this strat.

One thing that I'd like to point out is that I did not spend any gold at all on CS.

All of my gold was spent on getting the AI to fight each other, and buying buildings. I did not fight a single war the entire game, and had only a archer and a spearman aside from the two pathfinders that were auto exploring.

Also, I think getting a free tech is a better option rather than a lump sum of gold. Religion > population > culture (only twice) > tech.

Alternatively you can prioritize tech and with some luck and depending on your starting location, its very possible to build hanging gardens and petra.
 
When i aim for SV i get it usually done until turn 270-300 which is atm not a problem due to the fact the AI sometimes is unable to win and the late game progression of the AI is severely slowed down due to their useless city spam.

At what time u get SV? I now think that 260 turn or less is a good result, 250 or less is very good. Trying to go under 240.
 
At what time u get SV? I now think that 260 turn or less is a good result, 250 or less is very good. Trying to go under 240.

This was true and required in GnK because the AI was able to win by Turn 260.
In BNW i did not see a AI win before 290 (except one time) so you have a lot more time and due to the fact the late game in BNW is slowed down you can easily take a Turn 300 SV normally but i try winning before it (270-280) which i can do normally.

Getting below turn 240 in BNW would need a perfect start imo, was only able to get a 250 SV while abusing the imba sea trade routes to get ridicolous big pop cities. But i dont play perfect so anything is possible but i doubt that you can do sub 200 SVs like possible in GnK.
 
I tried this on Emperor and it worked out pretty well.
I was almost alone on a small half -island, blocked by two CS, so I got basicly no neighbours. Had access to 6 Wines, so took the proper Pantheon and first religion + enchanser. After finishing tradition went for 2 points in Patronage (opener + every cs is friend). Won by science around t310, could win on diplo way earlier.

The funniest thing was, that I produced no military unit all game long, and because of the unendless CS gifts I had best military almost half of the game.

Thanks for the guide, these seem to be extremely useful to make me try new stuff and to improve my game and up the difficulty.

I will give it a second try tonight :)
 
The funniest thing was, that I produced no military unit all game long, and because of the unendless CS gifts I had best military almost half of the game.

No neighbors? Other than a garrison in each city, you should have given those guys a vacation -- by end of game they're costing you 5 or 6 gold a turn each!
 
Well, I had no neightbours by land, but assyria was just 3-4 tiles away, and on the other side of the 2 CS there was Egypt. At some point I started gifting the obsolete units, but I felt its a bit dangerous to fire everyone. I was friend with everyone till very late in the game, but still ...
 
Well, I had no neightbours by land, but assyria was just 3-4 tiles away, and on the other side of the 2 CS there was Egypt. At some point I started gifting the obsolete units, but I felt its a bit dangerous to fire everyone. I was friend with everyone till very late in the game, but still ...

Egypt isn't usually very hostile, and the CS are a great buffer. Re Assyria, the AI tends to hate huge naval attacks. Not that they don't do them, but you definitely didn't need one of the largest armies to dissuade them.
 
Does gold work out to be more valuable than free techs?

This is a hard one to answer. On the one hand sometimes you finish Pottery get a free tech and nab a free Calendar. On the other hand sometimes it gives you Mining, something that you were currently working on and that only has 3 turns left. It's hit or miss. Gold will always have value especailly if you're looking to rush-buy Settlers. A free tech is fine obviously but it's not always going to be super relevant. What I will say is that free techs get much better once you have Mining and Pottery but like it's always going to be a bit of a gamble. You're also probably taking Faith since that's like turn 20ish. There's no one right answer here.

How are you managing to keep your cities growing well after staffing your Universities? On Turn 111 after you staff your fresh-bought University in 8 pop Goshute you are getting the food from your best 6 tiles, your city tile plus Granary. That would barely keep a family fed. You have finished Tradition so you do have an Aquaduct there. Did you take the +15% growth pantheon? (actually looks like you took Camp food) Are you sending a food Caravan there? Do you have one or more Maritime CSs allied? We Love the King Day? That's one of the things that chokes off my growth immensely, filling those Specialist spots when I hit Education.

Food from camps helped me a lot that game since I had so many of them. I basically never use food caravans and didn't that game. I always try and keep my We Love the King Days rolling so it probably had it at the time. I had no CS allies that game, nor CS friends, beyond my one Mercantile ally. I purposely avoided things like Consulates and making tons of CS friends for a few games to test the build out further. You obviously should try and get as many CS allies as possible but I wanted to make sure that you could just live off of 1 Merc for the big happiness buffer. Never had a problem with it in any of my games so I was reasonably satisfied.

I'm also wondering how you managed to spy successfully on the tech leader, when they normally defend their cap with their own Spy, and also do it to Rome without prompting a DoW the first tech took. Were you bribing Caesar to stay put or attack someone else?

I'm wondering how your spies fail. In all of my Deity games I've never failed to steal techs with my spies. I've never had one killed except during coup attempts on CSes once I get my first one to level 3 promotion. Yes, I was paying Ceasar to DOW China and Ottomans. Also, stealing techs will basically never prompt war. The biggest mistake that people say is that "they promise to stop spying on you." Never lie. Lying gives you huge negative diplo modifiers. When he confronted me about him I told him "my spies go where they please" and that was that. He might DOW me if he caught me later after promising to stop. As long as you don't lie you should be fine.

You say it was a trivial amount of Gold to deflect Suleiman toward China on Turn 99, when you had 1351 Gold, and 12 Turns later you can afford to rush-buy 4 Universities. Were you the only one with Truffles and did you have Friends you could sell them to for 240? How did you crank that much gold in that many Turns? Did you sell a bunch of GPT to Friends on Turn 111? It's impressive.

Yes I had control over all of the Truffles that game it seemed. Yes I sold all of my gpt for flat gold. Yes I was getting 240g for most of many of my luxuries. Playing nice and paying people to DOW each other is a great way to make a lot of friends.

This minimal military tactic is very different to me and I don't know how you managed to not be in a permanent state of war. But I would love to learn more.

Every 5 turns I look at the civs near me and the civs near them. I trade them and see A) if they're willing to go to war and B) what it will cost me. Since the answer is usually "yes" and "not much" it's not hard to avoid war for the entire game past a certain point. The scariest part of the game is on turns ~70-100 where you don't have much gold and the AI haven't expanded enough to meet a ton of neighbors with contested borders. The game is easy mode cruise control past turn like 150 though. The reason why I was fine with having no gold, no army, no nothing on turn 160 is because I've never lost from that position in my life as of BnW. I'll always get some gold from trades/whatever a few turns later and it'll always be enough to keep the wars going.

I think you are not honest if u say '1 archer and walls are always enouph to def'. Really. Usually AI fails war, but sometimes they can do something.

I'm being honest but I'm more than willing to recognize the fact that I may just be lucky. Every time the AI wages war with me I easily fend it off with a pathetic force. Now, that being said, I play a lot of civ. A lot of stuff comes naturally to me. I always expand on hills and across rivers. I always look to create choke points. I always scout ahead to see incoming armies and I always try and pay that civ to DOW someone else. Etc. etc. Some of it is skill. Some of it is probably luck. Still, I've never actually lost to these kinds of early rushes even though I tend to ignore military for the most part.

Have I ever had Zulu start 10 tiles away from me and wage war with me? No, I haven't. Pangea maps are random as heck and there are a lot of civs in the game. I'm not going to cook any settings or do anything special to force situations to occur. My playstyle works for me. I've lost like 2 Deity games so far. One time I was playing on the weirdest pangea map ever where I was between 3 civs who had no access to the rest of the world except to go through me. Think of it like a cross with me being in the middle and the bottom of the cross leading to the other civs. On turn 80 or something Monty, Greece and Russia all DOW'd me so that they could expand beyond "the cross." I lost that game. The other game that I lost was to Ghandi who won a culture win on turn 262 because I had no idea what I was doing or how the culture win worked.

I didnt see in this guide anything Shoshone-special but anyway got some fun reading it. I want just to notice that in my last game for Shoshones I only got 2 ruins. Shoshones gain more from ruins but they get nearly the same count of ruins (you get scout from start, but second scout comes slower) as other civ - and from my experience average ruin count is far not 5, may be 3 or 4.

Lowest that I've ever gotten was 2 on a map where I was surrounded by 3 opposing civs who were all within 15 tiles of me. That was a weird game. Getting 4-6 isn't rare or uncommon at all for me on Standard Pangea maps. Do you sometimes get less? Sure. Stuff happens. There's a reason why you open Pottery with the option of building a Shrine after your 2 Pathfinders in case you're worried about not getting a Pantheon.

Still, I don't build 3 Pathfinders because I expect to get a million ruins. One is getting me a Worker. Period. The other 2 are meeting CSes, civs, finding expansion locations and finding me NWs. They're also finding me 4ish ruins on average. I rarely get as few as 3 and I've only ever gotten 2 once. Building scouts early and often is great since the AI puts 0 effort in checking their surroundings completely. I've found ruins within 2 tiles of a city more times than I care to count.

I also do not understand why you dislike food-caravans. "We Love the King Day"s is a nice thing, but not always possible if you dont like to pay 24 gpt for lux or buy military CS on the other side of map. Moreover "We Love the King Day" boosts food from caravans.

Because everything has trade-offs. Using Caravans for food is caravans that aren't getting me gold and science early on when I sorely need it. The reason why I can pay 16gpt and 1 luxury for a WLtK day is because my trade routes are giving me a lot of gold each (especially after Markets and Constabularies kick in). Still, I'm also getting science out of the deal and the computers that I'm trading with are now slightly less likely to attack me. Both options provide me with food. Gold caravans net you science, a bit of a positive diplo modifier (it's small but it is something) and gold can also be used to pay people for wars, buy science buildings, etc. If I could magically have tons of gold and food caravans, sure, I'd obviously take both. Then reality kicks in and I remember that you don't magically have everything at your disposal at all times.

I can not decide whether your position on last screen is good or not. You should be around even in tech to best AI, but you will leave without gpt for 20 turns. And you have no units at all. What you will do if Suleman make peace with China and attacks you?

It's literally never happened once. I've never lost a game past turn 150 or so. The computers are mass expanding at that point and everyone hates everyone. I can play as greedy and stupidly as I want. Doesn't matter if I don't have gold or units. I will 100% no get DOWed because Rome, China and Ottomans are all in perpetual war with at least 1-2 other players. The game gets waaaaaaaaaaaay easier in that sense. As soon as borders become contested it's just not even possible to lose. Getting there safely is the hard part.

I've updated the guide a bit to cover more of the basics.
 
Thanks for the response, Tich. I tried this with the Ethiopia Deity map Moriarte posted in the Tradition Expansion thread and it worked pretty well. I did build Monolith first because, well Ethiopia, and I only built 2 Scouts rather than 3. Usually I could only finesse enough cash to rush-buy 2 of the Science buildings when I hit Education/Scientific Theory/Plastics but I hit 810 BPT on Turn 200. My immediate neighbors were creampuffs, no real threat.
 
Thanks for the response, Tich. I tried this with the Ethiopia Deity map Moriarte posted in the Tradition Expansion thread and it worked pretty well. I did build Monolith first because, well Ethiopia, and I only built 2 Scouts rather than 3. Usually I could only finesse enough cash to rush-buy 2 of the Science buildings when I hit Education/Scientific Theory/Plastics but I hit 810 BPT on Turn 200. My immediate neighbors were creampuffs, no real threat.

Rushing UBs is obviously good. I would always open with double Scout into Pyramid as Maya or Stele first as Ethiopia. In general I like to build a ton of Scouts early on because I personally believe that they're horribly underrated and underproduced but I agree with rushing UBs for obvious reasons.

Every game is different. Sometimes you can only buy 2 and have to build 2 in your high-production cities. I can usually buy all 4 Labs after Skyscrapers kicks in but Unis/Schools are waaaaaay tougher. Sometimes you have to produce all 4 Unis because you got a map and cruddy neighbors. Public Schools I can usually buy at least 2 and it's normally ~8 turns faster to wait and buy a 3rd than to build it. I normally produce 1 from my Cap if it's just going to take me 10 turns or whatever. Things still go fine, it's just slightly less fine some of the time lol.

The game gets really easy the later it goes doesn't it? Early wars are a threat but later wars never happen. Eventually borders get contested by multiple civs and paying people to DOW is the easiest and cheesiest thing ever at that point. They charge you nothing and are always willing to do it. It's like impossible to lose past turn 150 or whatever in my experience.
 
I did another game on Emperor yesterday. I am not sure what's going on, but something is wrong.
Either I am getting better on that game, or Shoshone + 3 Salt start (in the capitol, on river and sea) is simply way too good ...

Got SV at 1900 AD.

Desert folklore as first pantheon (had 2-3 desert tiles) but the 2nd city was 8-9 desert tiles + some flooded plains on river , mostly hills on a mountain + 2 fish in the sea. Got Petra there too and it became a MONSTER :)

This time I had Ottomans very close to me, and they became angry because I made my 4th City too close to them, but the Military CS I had allied gave me enough units to keep him calm. I expected a quick DOW after he denounced me, but the war never came , altrough he made 2-3 Catapults. I guess the hill terrain in front of the city + 3-4 Composites and some gifted CS units seemed too much for him.

Btw, one offtopic questions - does the Ethiopian guy keep promises to not convert cities at all? As even with DOF he converted another of my cities after he had agreed to stop before. It didn't matter at all, as I was done with religion at that point but still ...
 
What's 1900 AD? You should basically never get anything above 270 with this type of build.

Added another example game. Lost my SSes of the ones that I had prior because I'm in idiot lol. I'll upload another game tomorrow. I actually did 2 today but my second game I got both Fountain of Youth and Lake Victoria so it was a joke and no one would take it seriously heh.

I came around on the free tech. It helps you transition straight into Rationalism from Tradition. Also, if you open Pottery - Mining then you have a ton of sweet techs that you can grab for free. I still dislike getting Mining/AH, especially when I'm half-finished them, but realistically you don't need the gold since you get so much of it early on anyways. Even though getting a tech can backfire it still seems better on average.
 
Well, 1900 AD was the year. the turn , hm 305 or something like that ...
Problem with the early start is that u are unable to steal a worker like u suggest. The CS produce a worker simply too late. Its still a bonus, but it comes at the time when u can afford to simply buy it. But u lose speed for sure.
 
Well, 1900 AD was the year. the turn , hm 305 or something like that ...
Problem with the early start is that u are unable to steal a worker like u suggest. The CS produce a worker simply too late. Its still a bonus, but it comes at the time when u can afford to simply buy it. But u lose speed for sure.

Errr... what? CSes produce workers as early as turn ~25 on Deity and basically every single one of them with have one by the early ~30s when they hit 5 pop. I don't see how you could possibly have the gold to afford a worker by then barring El Dorado. Building a bunch of Pathfinders is nice because you can have the third run to the nearest CS and grab the closest possible worker to start fixing tiles up immediately. You can usually send him on his merry way from there since you're not usually at risk of losing your dude to Barbs just yet.

Really not sure where you're coming from with this. I've literally never failed to steal an early worker as any civ on a Pangea map at Deity (difficulty does matter; they spawn much faster at higher ones).
 
:) I wrote I play on Emperor mate. Its different.

Ah, yeah, that explains it. I kind of misinterpreted what you were saying. When you said "u are unable to steal a worker like u suggest" I thought you were saying that the strategy doesn't work. I guess you just meant that it doesn't work nearly as well on lower difficulties.

To that I agree completely. Not only will CSes produce workers more slowly but the AI won't cheat nearly as much and so they won't have infinite gold to throw at you. I often find myself buying 4ish Workers because "why not?" but that's only because I can get top dollar for every luxury/strategic in my borders. That just doesn't happen on say Emperor.

The strategy will work obviously, it's still fine, it's just going to lead to slower wins on average like you suggest. This is especially true since you won't be getting a ton of free beakers from early trade routs (both yours and theirs) since you won't be massively behind on techs like you are on Deity.
 
Yeah, but other than that it worked pretty well :) That were basicly my 2nd and 3rd emperor games.
I seem to be lucky with the neighbours in these games tho. Things might be way different with Zulu, Mongols or Huns around ...
 
Yeah, but other than that it worked pretty well :) That were basicly my 2nd and 3rd emperor games.
I seem to be lucky with the neighbours in these games tho. Things might be way different with Zulu, Mongols or Huns around ...

Meh, depends. Warmongers are both good and bad. If you're isolated with one then you have to prepare a bit. If you're clustered with them then you're fine. They'll DOW anything that moves so paying them off is a breeze. The main thing that you need to do is keep them in multiple DOWs instead of just 1. I've played against a lot of Mongols/Zulu recently and double DOWing really is your safest bet. These guys will DOF you one turn and literally DOW you the next (no joke, this actually happened to me multiple times) if you just get them to DOW a single opponent.
 
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