Shoshone Overview- Aimed at Deity Pangea play

You're probably right about needing more workers. I should have probably made an effort to buy/build more at some point. That's probably my biggest weakness as a player right now. I don't think that I put enough thought into my Worker count.

I definitely have this problem. I always end up working unimproved tiles, or working luxury mines instead of food tiles because they're already improved.

Also, Tich, in your guide you recommend to move in a straight line with your first pathfinder. I dunno... as you point out, if you have a neighbor within ten tiles, it's extremely valuable to find them ASAP. So, with my first pathfinder, I do a semi-circle, IE I walk in a straight line out 8 tiles from my city and then circle around roughly halfway, then head straight out. Then, my second pathfinder circles around roughly halfway and heads out in the opposite direction. That way I expose everything in a ten-tile radius by turn 20. If I haven't found a civ to steal a worker from by then, I target a nearby CS with the second pathfinder. /shrug
 
Don't think I ever went over 3 cities playing Shoshone, lol. Each one of them takes so much land that I find myself out of room I actually want and stop at 3 (which is the number of Factories I need anyway so I never bother expanding more). You could build an extra Worker with the saved time there, as your early BO seems to lack a bit on those...

Otherwise, very good writeup.

And about Barbs, I never have problems with those playing Deity. AI is very good at cleaning them up, and by turn 60 or so, on a Pangaea, there should be no problematic camps around any longer.

P.S.: No one got a really interesting map to post a Shoshone Deity Challenge? I'm trying to roll some but nothing really cool so far :(

I tend to agree. I have happiness issues at 4 cities, and not enough workers to go around. And usually the 4th city is in a compromise location. I think 3 works fine, and maybe you build the 4th only if the land dictates it? I'm playing with that now.

I have a map I might post for a Shoshone Deity Challenge. I played through it already, but I'm really curious to see how some of the more experienced Deity players here would do. And it's a fun map. :-D
 
Also, Tich, in your guide you recommend to move in a straight line with your first pathfinder. I dunno... as you point out, if you have a neighbor within ten tiles, it's extremely valuable to find them ASAP. So, with my first pathfinder, I do a semi-circle, IE I walk in a straight line out 8 tiles from my city and then circle around roughly halfway, then head straight out. Then, my second pathfinder circles around roughly halfway and heads out in the opposite direction. That way I expose everything in a ten-tile radius by turn 20. If I haven't found a civ to steal a worker from by then, I target a nearby CS with the second pathfinder. /shrug

To be fair it's actually difficult to explain how to scout properly, especially since the maximum post size on these forums is quite small. There's actually a lot of nuances that I'd like to talk about but I can't really for space reasons. That being said I do agree that that's probably not the best way to describe it. The point that I was trying to make is that your first scout shouldn't be used to slowly circle your area and uncover everything. You want to meet CS and civs asap to get gold and DoFs and ruins. That means moving away from your starting zone and exploring the far reaches of the map.
 
To be fair it's actually difficult to explain how to scout properly, especially since the maximum post size on these forums is quite small. There's actually a lot of nuances that I'd like to talk about but I can't really for space reasons. That being said I do agree that that's probably not the best way to describe it. The point that I was trying to make is that your first scout shouldn't be used to slowly circle your area and uncover everything. You want to meet CS and civs asap to get gold and DoFs and ruins. That means moving away from your starting zone and exploring the far reaches of the map.

Agreed. I just find that if I don't at least uncover my 10-tile radius by circling a bit, I sometimes find on turn 35 that I had a neighboring city like 9 tiles away that I could have stolen workers from. :p
 
I tried this on Immortal, and it's been rather hit or miss. The first "successful" one I tried, I did a bit differently. Instead of going patronage, I went Liberty and all my tiles were more or less improved before turn 150. The problem: no population to fill them with!!! That, and the science petered out at around 450+ and the fact that there were no coal anywhere.

Are there any benchmarks for science?
 
@syntax error,

ya, I usually aim for ~200 around 160, 400-500@200, 800@220

I think going liberty is probably not optimal, you miss out on alot of happiness, gold, not to mention 3-4 free aqueducts and monuments. The cultural hit by itself is tremendous and really gimps your early game growth.
 
Are there any benchmarks for science?

I've never understood the science benchmark question because it doesn't make any sense to me. Your biggest science jumps aren't dependent on turns, they're dependent on buildings. You should see big increases in science once you get NC, Unis, Rat opener, Secularism, Obs, Public Schools, Free Thought, Factories and Research Labs. You'll get those faster in games with lots of production but like 15 turns slower if you're stuck in a jungle or whatever. I could say 160 is a good Public School timing but I mean it has nothing to do producing 200 science by turn 160 and everything to do with producing 200 science when Public Schools finish. Still, the only problem with that is we're assuming 4 good cities which doesn't always happen. Also, what's the point in saying that your science increases when you build science buildings? That's pretty obvious lol. I dunno :S.

One thing that I will say is that I've never understood the people producing 600 science by turn 200 or whatever. How are you possibly producing that little? Research Labs are easy to rush buy with Skyscrapers and I mean you can pump 1-2 in your high prod cities with ease. Once they finish you literally work every specialist slot possible without going in to starvation. 8 turns later you pop your GSes. How are people not producing close to 1000 science by turn ~210 in a large % of their games? It makes no sense to me. Are people just not building Labs and working specialist slots? Like, I dunno, everyone seems to post ridiculously small science numbers at all times and I have no idea why. Farms + food caravans + we love the king day + Tradition + maritime CS allies are so broken for getting population. You can still work your science, artist and engineer slots while growing strong and producing a metric ton of science from Secularism. From there it's as easy as rush buying and building science buildings asap. Once Labs are done the game is done. Produce science, work every specialist slot possible, 8 turns later you bulb with all of your GSes. If you include Porcelain Tower and 1-2 from Faith that's like at least 6. From there it's an easy Hubble + Apollo build while your other 2 cities pump out science or maybe Kremlin for another policy if needed. Level 3 Order finisher for example. Hubble finishes, bam, 2 more GSes to bulb. Once your last batch of RAs finish that's basically game.

I dunno, I just don't get what people are doing that their SVs take so long. Saying 400 science by turn 200 is just like completely impossible in my mind. I cannot fathom how you could possibly produce so little assuming that you follow the outline of this guide. I realize how harsh that sounds but like I just don't understand how someone who opens Tradition + Rationalism and who rushes science buildings and who works specialist slots can only be producing 400 science by turn 200. If I'm not producing close to 1000 right around that time I feel as though I played a weak game or that my land sucked.
 
How do you guys decide if its more worth it to keep jungle tiles vs improving them into farms. Obviously i think if the tiles on the river than its probably hands down improve? But what about the others?
 
Snip Snip

And that's the reason why Benchmarks need to exist. There are targets to hit that will dictate whether record-setting victories (personal or otherwise) are possible. For example, I rarely get to 1000+ bpt by turn 200, regardless of whether I played a Science Civ or not. Maybe it's because I rarely play above Emperor (my fastest victory ever is a SV in GnK with Korea. Turn 250 in a Pangaea).

The benchmarks will also help your game a lot, since you can now more quickly identify what needs to be done in order to get the best returns.

Anyway, thanks for that! I was really wondering how 1000BPT by turn 200 Standard was possible and how to do it. Still, I remember in this board somewhere, someone won a turn 199 Science Victory as Maya on Emperor (granted, the Map was rigged specifically for testing out the "best science civ").
 
And that's the reason why Benchmarks need to exist. There are targets to hit that will dictate whether record-setting victories (personal or otherwise) are possible. For example, I rarely get to 1000+ bpt by turn 200, regardless of whether I played a Science Civ or not. Maybe it's because I rarely play above Emperor (my fastest victory ever is a SV in GnK with Korea. Turn 250 in a Pangaea).

The benchmarks will also help your game a lot, since you can now more quickly identify what needs to be done in order to get the best returns.

Anyway, thanks for that! I was really wondering how 1000BPT by turn 200 Standard was possible and how to do it. Still, I remember in this board somewhere, someone won a turn 199 Science Victory as Maya on Emperor (granted, the Map was rigged specifically for testing out the "best science civ").

1000 bpt is prob possible @turn 200 if you have an insanely good start. In my current game, I'm going 3 cities on good locations and got 820 bpt @ turn 200. So 1000 bpt is very possible.

Its mostly about the timing, like the OP said, timing oxford to save 8-10 turns, rush buy multiple science buildings can shave off at least 20 turns from your finish time.
 
I'm trying to duplicate this guide with America but Ive ran into significant problems and don't really think its possible to go tradition over liberty. Getting the settlers out and hard buying the good tiles in the second ring has been a significant issue
 
At least you are a much more literate form of tommynt. But I dare you post that in the BNW forum. :lol:

He does have a point though. In a game where things don't go well, I'm at 500 beakers by turn 200. In my most recent game, I was at 880 by 206, would have been there earlier but I ran into some money problems and couldn't rush buy all my satellite labs.

But I do understand how people end up with less. It's usually one of four things:

1) Wasting time building stuff they don't need.
2) Working production instead of food.
3) Not working every possible science specialist slot.
4) Not keeping their happiness positive.

And 1-3 are really all one thing. They don't have enough population because of #2, so they can't do #3, and it's all because they wanted production to build stuff they didn't need. And #4 is probably because they traded luxes for money to buy things they didn't need. ;-)

However, playing hyper-focused is very difficult. I played countless games of Civ before I learned to play focused. You have to know the tech tree inside and out. You have to understand how culture, science, faith, growth and diplomacy work, and probably most importantly, you have to have enough experience to adapt when the map doesn't exactly fit a strategy guide.

That takes time, and for most, it takes hundreds of hours of games, because of two simple reasons. One, they play tons of games on low difficulty, learning bad habits. (Yes bad, not because they aren't deity exploit-based, but because they wouldn't work in MP either)

Two, they play a lot of games where they're not really learning anything, and they play them out to the bitter end. I know I did this for a long time before I realized the error of my ways. Now I play to learn, not to win. The result? I win a lot more. ;-)

I think a lot of people would benefit from playing games only to turn 100-150 until they learn to really adapt and handle every situation.

For example, moving your settler. This is a fine art that most people don't even attempt, because they don't know what constitutes a good starting spot, and they're afraid of losing those wasted turns. But it can make alllll the difference in a game. It takes practice though. So, why not play 20 games to turn 50 to see how moving your settler affects the game? It's worth it.

I tried another Shoshone game last night, and as is occasionally the case, my first pathfinder move showed me a mountain range 2 turns away, which for me is pretty much a no-brainer. An observatory in your capital is almost equivalent to +50% population with zero extra unhappiness. Think about that. Your size 20 capital is suddenly equivalent to a size 30 capital. And your capital will likely be your biggest city, and have NC, and PT, and Oracle and/or other +GS wonders, so an observatory there makes by far the biggest difference.

So, it's pretty much *always* worth moving your settler to a mountain even if it loses you a river! The extra population will at best compensate for not having an observatory, but at the cost of extra unhappiness.

Anyway, point being, I always look for mountains and move there if I see them on turn 0. This time however, I discovered that I was on a peninsula with a mountain range between me and the rest of the continent, with only 1 tile on each side to move. My capital was virtually untouchable. But, on the other hand, any city I expanded out beyond that mountain range would be a sitting duck. And any road would be like 15 tiles long if I actually moved the city far enough away to have any luxuries.

So, at this point, I almost completely abandoned the strategy. I had to. No trade routes. None! No one to steal a worker from. Satellites left completely vulnerable and guaranteed to piss off anyone if I placed them anywhere good. So, I went with a 2-city approach instead, crammed in a second city on my peninsula for the 1 extra luxury, and as soon as I get universities, I'm beelining Astronomy and Navigation. Even though this is Pangaea, and even though I'm playing as the Shoshone, I'll be winning a Domination Victory via naval warfare. Of course, there are a million ways to play this. An isolated start on Deity though is arguably a death sentence if you don't handle it right. And in this case, I believe following the strategy to the letter would have been a mistake. And that's not something you can expect someone to just know.

So, I don't criticize people who haven't learned all the nuances of Deity play. I feel like I still have a lot to learn. But I do agree with Tich's point. If you follow the guide, it's pretty hard not to end up with really good beakers.
 
Cromangus, I agree, it is not hard but he doesn't have to be so condescending about it - just like tommy, I imagine some are ignoring them because of it.

Speaking of being condescending, I still would love to see the reaction if he had posted that in BNW forum. Every once in a great while I go over there then leave shaking my head convinced they are not playing BNW but a different game. This is esp. True for all those crying the game is broken when in fact they do not know how to play.

Rule #1 corollary: do not build early world wonders except for oracle or pyramids. If you feel you have to build wonders early, play at the easy levels.
 
Cromangus, I agree, it is not hard but he doesn't have to be so condescending about it - just like tommy, I imagine some are ignoring them because of it.

Speaking of being condescending, I still would love to see the reaction if he had posted that in BNW forum. Every once in a great while I go over there then leave shaking my head convinced they are not playing BNW but a different game. This is esp. True for all those crying the game is broken when in fact they do not know how to play.

Rule #1 corollary: do not build early world wonders except for oracle or pyramids. If you feel you have to build wonders early, play at the easy levels.

Haha, yeah, I agree with your corollary for the most part, but it irks me to no end that this is the case. I wish it were more like MP where, yes, you might get beat fair and square to a wonder, but usually the main risk in building a wonder is that you'll get owned by a CB rush because you built a wonder instead of troops. Deity is not "Prince with more skilled opponents", it's "a different game"... sigh.

Although it works both ways. It's a lot harder to get Pyramids in MP, and HG and GL are heavily contested as well. But at least you can gauge the risk by simply looking at your dirt. ;-)
 
@ crogmagnus

I actually find it hard to always work food. There are times where I feel the need to switch at least a couple of my cities to production, such as rushing leaning tower, finishing a production building in the 3 turns b4 Scientific theory kicks in and other similar cases.

As for finishing b4 260, I'm actually finding it pretty difficult, maybe it's my late game management. I'm finishing plastics@200 with 800+ science, which seems pretty good, but consistently finishing the game@ 270. I really don't know what the problem is.

I thinking that it's because i dont have any faith points to buy great scientists, since I usually don't get any faith buildings. Another suspect might be not beelining for Hubble telescope. Any suggestions on improving my late game timings?
 
Sorry, got confused about which thread I was responding to, never mind. :p

I think Tich's guide pretty much says it all. I thought you were asking me specifically how I played the map I posted as a deity challenge.
 
since BNW came out i have never found an appropriate time to build Writers/Artists guilds for anything but CVs. you mention their use in your guide but nothing addressing when you build them. (and no, I didnt read every page of threads to see if you addressed this in comments, so apologies if its covered but i dont have the time for every post. sorry.)

ive delayed them to bulb for some instant culture but i never used their specialists slots til later because i wanted more growth until my pop was about 18-20.
 
since BNW came out i have never found an appropriate time to build Writers/Artists guilds for anything but CVs. you mention their use in your guide but nothing addressing when you build them. (and no, I didnt read every page of threads to see if you addressed this in comments, so apologies if its covered but i dont have the time for every post. sorry.)

ive delayed them to bulb for some instant culture but i never used their specialists slots til later because i wanted more growth until my pop was about 18-20.

I find getting the artists slots filled shortly after the two scientists from university to be beneficial for the push into Rationalism and Ideology.
 
Cromangus, I agree, it is not hard but he doesn't have to be so condescending about it - just like tommy, I imagine some are ignoring them because of it.

I'm fine with that. I bet there's way more people who can appreciate the fact that it takes self-centered, arrogant prick like me to grind out these kinds of builds and strategies to optimize their gameplay. My goal isn't to make everyone happy nor feel good about themselves. My goal is to provide gameplay advice to get fast SVs as Shoshone. Even though it seems like I'm being a jerk, I don't know, what do you want me to say? I've never had 400 beakers on turn 200 in my life. I didn't play my first game of civ until I knew enough about the game to start on Immortal (back in GnK obv) and so I've always been an Immortal+ player who emphasizes science. I've always hated culture and diplo and domination takes too long + is too tedious so I only know how to churn out beakers. It's legitimately hard for me to empathize with weaker players. That's why I'm trying to explain my methods as clearly as I possibly can. Anyone who follows this guide and this BO should be able to post a solid Deity win barring a horrendous map + neighbors.

since BNW came out i have never found an appropriate time to build Writers/Artists guilds for anything but CVs. you mention their use in your guide but nothing addressing when you build them. (and no, I didnt read every page of threads to see if you addressed this in comments, so apologies if its covered but i dont have the time for every post. sorry.)

It's listed in the build order. Build Writing Guild once NC finishes. Build Artist Guild shortly after your Uni finishes. You should be getting it right around the time when you finish your Market/Caravansary. Musician Guild I don't care about so I build it in a satellite city when it becomes available. Usually my highest population one. I never do anything with GMs except delete them in "good" games and so you're basically just doing it for the science and culture. Gets you Free Thought and such faster.

I find getting the artists slots filled shortly after the two scientists from university to be beneficial for the push into Rationalism and Ideology.

You should have 12 pop by the time NC finishes and so working both Writer slots once the Guild finishes is better. You get Secularism faster that way. You should still be at 14 pop by the time you Uni finishes which is plenty of food to keep growing while working all 4.

You have to know the tech tree inside and out. You have to understand how culture, science, faith, growth and diplomacy work, and probably most importantly, you have to have enough experience to adapt when the map doesn't exactly fit a strategy guide.

/shrug. I barely know any of the tech names and I couldn't tell you what most of the upper tree allows you to build because I blitz past it with GSes and RAs. The only thing that I know about Culture is that Consulates and the World Fair are OP as fun. I don't really adapt, I just blindly force my strategy to work and it basically always does. I dunno, I think that civ 5 is actually a very easy game that people needlessly complicate. The biggest mistake that people make, in my opinion, is tricking themselves into thinking that they're making big plays by "adapting" to a situation. Every time I see someone try something new or different it ends up costing them and they usually regret it. Well, that's assuming that they're a strong enough player to be self-aware of mistakes that they make anyways. The purpose of my guide is to take decision making more-or-less out of the game. Everything that you're doing is going to be pretty damned close to optimal in the vast majority of your games.
 
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