Why am I too slow?

So, I've been trying to win a dom vic on immortal for a while now and I just can't get ahead of the AI.

In the early game (Pangea and standard everything) I'm prioritising growth (internal trade routes, building granaries and lighthouses first, etc.) and not building wonders except S.Zeus and Oracle, when I can. I get NC way before T100 (or 90 or 85, depending on the game) I get CB and then PM (or SM, if I have lots of iron - in order to get LM quickly) asap.

I want to get things going with 2 or 3 good cities up and running - usually 6 tiles apart - but I always seem to be competing against an army that 'could wipe me off the planet' or is, at least, 'stronger than me'. To start with 2 cities seems to be better for the happiness factor.

I get a capital before Renaissance and then while I'm regrouping, it seems the AI accelerates and when I'm ready (army-wise) to go on the warpath again, even if I choose my ideology first, the AI once again has an army that 'could wipe me off the planet' or is ' 'stronger than me'. After that, it's all pretty much downhill - Suddenly my riflemen are competing against GWI and when I think my artillery will take care of things, out come their bombers while I'm researching oil, or worse, before I've even started!!!

Why am I too slow? I feel like my build order is good and I get good science going early.

It didn't take me this long to get a dom vic on Emperor and I'm starting to feel demoralised!

Help!!

First, do not always trust what your military advisor tells you about your arm'ys strength and that of the AI's - it really undervalues ranged units. An army of 6 Composite Archers and 1-2 Spearmen can wipe out a 6 melee, 3 ranged AI army, but your advisor will tell you otherwise.

Try to have at least one city from the start dedicated to building military units; go for archers first (between 4 and 8), then some melee units depending on which resources you have. You should build library and granary early on to allow for fast growth and early NC, and barracks after you have the archers you need. Go for other buildings as needed, when you feel your army is more or less enough to face the AI; if you have the cash to do so, buy it instead. If you don't really NEED that building, skip it, or buy it only if you really don't have other ways to spend that cash.

Don't go after wonders unless it's REALLY essential for your strategy , you REALLY have a shot at getting it, and if it REALLY isn't going to delay your infrastructure/military.

Always keep your cities growing as much as possible, specially in the early game - the faster your city grows, the faster you can start working as much 3+ production tiles as you can. Keep an eye on happiness, tho.

Try to keep your army as up to date as possible.

If you feel like the AI is about to attack you, move your troops (safely) to your border; sometimes that's enough to deter it, or at least buy you a few turns while the AI tries to circle it to build the units you still need.

Thanks WiseGreen, I'll do my best!

In addition, when actually warring do not rush blindly, position your units is safe places around target declare war and wait.. See when AI will do, try to bite/pick any strangle units AI has.

Scouts and workers work good as biters. you can recapture worker with mobile unit and move that unit back again out of harm way. IN short try to reduce there army before you actually try to take there city. When taking city if you see there reinforcement arrive in mass do not force the issue, move back, clean up units and then move forward again. Patience is often the key.

Ok, but positioning units in safe, but advantageous, places usually means that the AI asks you if you're going to attack or if you're 'just passing through'....

I guess you're saying harmless units like scouts and workers can do that dirty work for you? But that would suppose you have extra workers... right?

The safe positioning is after you DOW. Essentially the advice is to destroy his army in the field, before your units come into bombardment range of any of his cities. Once his army is in tatters, you can surround the first city and siege it to submission. Trying to siege while also dealing with his army is recipe for heavy casualties.

OK, thanks, Browd.
So my original question was about why I'm so behind the other civs. Are you guys saying that I'm not attacking early enough? Happiness is also an issue there. Sure, it's great if you can capture N.Dame early on but in my games at least it's usually been built in a city far, far away...

well once again - add some screenshots or savegames.
generally all the units for early wars you need are Xbs and 1-2 horseman/knights to capture the cities. Most important thing is to tech to education, then go back to machinery. In the meantime - produce archers, so you can upgrade em to xb and then attack.
MOST important thing is to NOT build ANY wonders at this stage. Make archers instead. SoZ is not worth it.

Thank you

When attempting to move up in game difficulty for a domination victory you may want to try it first with a civ that has a UU that is capable of clearing the entire map (or most of it) before becoming obsolete. Good examples would be Mongolia (keshiks), Arabia (camel archers), China (CKN), England (longbows or SoL, depending on the map type). It's easier starting with an "OP" civ, then moving to the more generic civs when you are comfortable with strategy. Rush to that tech (building units that will upgrade to that UU along the way) and then just keep building those UU's. When you think you have enough, build 50% more.

I'd add the Inca to that RedRover's list especially if one wishes to cook the map. Hiding on the hills can easily save lives and the UA surely saves much needed cash in the early stages.

Ah, I hate to ask, but what is UU, or UA?

UU is the unique unit, and the UA is the unique ability. Those are the special things about each civ.

How is your science doing? If it's low, that will explain why you're behind in regards to your units being outdated. Do all you cities have libraries, universities, public schools, etc.? Are you science specialist slots being worked?

I wouldn't worry about them having more units, so long as you concentrate on having better units.

That's great info. docbud - thanks!

AJL. said:

So, I've been trying to win a dom vic on immortal for a while now and I just can't get ahead of the AI.

In the early game (Pangea and standard everything) I'm prioritising growth (internal trade routes, building granaries and lighthouses first, etc.) and not building wonders except S.Zeus and Oracle, when I can. I get NC way before T100 (or 90 or 85, depending on the game) I get CB and then PM (or SM, if I have lots of iron - in order to get LM quickly) asap.

I want to get things going with 2 or 3 good cities up and running - usually 6 tiles apart - but I always seem to be competing against an army that 'could wipe me off the planet' or is, at least, 'stronger than me'. To start with 2 cities seems to be better for the happiness factor.

I get a capital before Renaissance and then while I'm regrouping, it seems the AI accelerates and when I'm ready (army-wise) to go on the warpath again, even if I choose my ideology first, the AI once again has an army that 'could wipe me off the planet' or is ' 'stronger than me'. After that, it's all pretty much downhill - Suddenly my riflemen are competing against GWI and when I think my artillery will take care of things, out come their bombers while I'm researching oil, or worse, before I've even started!!!

Why am I too slow? I feel like my build order is good and I get good science going early.

It didn't take me this long to get a dom vic on Emperor and I'm starting to feel demoralised!

Help!!

Click to expand...

One of the reasons you could be slow is you aren't getting enough gold in. Gold enables you to speed up a lot of things either by buying buildings/units, bribing city states (which generate food, unique luxuries to meet your civ's WeLoveTheKingDay demands, culture, military units, faith and happiness) or sending another civ to war against your potential enemy to take care of their army before you declare war and move in to take their capital.

So what sort of things are you doing for gold?

Yeah, I always seem to be short on gold. On Emperor I usually had the MH wonder, which was really handy now that there are so many GP in BNW. Plus, I got extra points for GM so I was earning more often from trade missions too. Now I don't build MH.

In the beginning a use my trade routes for food but later I use some for gold. I sell resources for 2g when I have them, but those deals don't last forever because later in the game they want a lot more for their money than just 1 horse/iron. I sell extra luxes for 8g, but after a while that price has to go down or civs won't trade. Having an army is expensive so how can I get more gold?

Also, can you give a civ money as a bribe to go to war? How do you do that?

AJL. said:

Having an army is expensive so how can I get more gold?

Also, can you give a civ money as a bribe to go to war? How do you do that?

Click to expand...

To get more gold you have to sell everything you can, even gold per turn.

Take Horses and Iron for example. You can easily go any game without building a single horse or iron unit unless your civ's UU requires it and it clearly makes for better chances of success. Even so, if it needs iron, you can sell the horses, and if it needs horses, you can sell the iron.

Strategic resources (SRs) go for 1gpt per 1 of that resource. If you have DoF you can work out the up front gold equivalent (30 gold on standard, 45 on epic i believe) and trade that.

On any given game with normal resource abundance I'd say you can expect maybe 6 or so SRs average, so that is as much about 180 gold per 30 turn window. Not a lot, but it helps.

Then there's pillaging. Pillaging nets you gold. It doesn't even have to be enemy property or property of anyone (razed dead city). Say you have some idle workers. Make him build things, then pillage it. Rinse and repeat. It costs nothing to build except the worker's time, and it may cost 1 gold after it's built, but pillaging is accomplished in 1 turn. For a single road tile you will get more than 1 gold for the pillage, pretty sure.

Also there's trade routes, obviously. Sea routes = higher yields. Yeah food trades are good but farms and the various food buildings should be plenty in most cases as long as freshwater is nearby. You can edit your tiles worked to get faster growth as the computer default isn't always optimal if you want to ignore gold and production. Also it is not apparent whether the food in food routes is lost by the giving city.

Harbours and markets also net you more trade routes from the AI.

Barb camps. 25 gold per, or 37 on epic.

Garrisoned units cost no maintenance with a certain social policy (I think it's in Tradition or Honour).

Gold per turn sold is generally called a loan by the community. You offer 5gpt, AI gives 150 on standard speed to you in an ideal world, but the AI correctly values actual funds held over magnitude of income so you will get less than that. How much GPT you get or are losing, to sort of quote Wolf of Wall Street, is just a fugazi, it's in the ether, it's not real. What really matters is how much gold you have now.

There's also gold earnt in how much you don't spend, or what you spend it on, and these decisions are very important and easily mistaken.

AJL. said:

Having an army is expensive so how can I get more gold?

Click to expand...

Meet city states, clear barbarian camps and sell embassy for 1gpt working on getting some external trade routes going, and put city connections in place shortly before swapping the external routes for internal food routes to capital.

If that army is large enough, start using it. Go park it near a CS and demand gold tribute (their influence bar will turn an orange color to indicate the option is available).

Declare on a neighbor, kill their units and pillage their lands.

revelation216 said:

Harbours and markets also net you more trade routes from the AI.

Click to expand...

Indeed. There are several buildings which increase the value of the trade route for the other civ involved, and the AI will prioritize connecting their own routes to that city. Don't forget the caravansary for land routes.

Oh I nearly forgot to say: Declaration of Friendship ASAP is what opens the door for oceans of gold. DoF allows for payment of up front gold, meaning you can plunder the AI's reserves through trades.

For example in a recent game I secured a DoF with the Mayans and sold everything I could to them that didn't put me in negative happiness. On Epic speed by turn 80 i had 1400 gold, which enabled me to buy a granary (believe it's 550) and a worker (420) whilst I built a library, and a settler (680 gold on epic) not long after that. If i was a better player, with the free settler in liberty i could've had 4 cities out before turn 80 (pretty much between t50-55 on standard speed equivalent). Not really possible without buying settlers. And of course by not building the settler you don't miss out on all those turns of growth (on epic this is like 22 turns to build a settler)

Thanks so much Nares and revelation216! I do most of what you're saying except selling buildings and 'loaning' gold. I'm still not sure how that works, actually.

Pillaging your own land - I had never thought of that!

I try for DoF asap, but they usually turn me down. Most of the time I have to wait for them to ask me. If I offer an extra resource of mine for free, do they agree more readily?