City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)

Seek said:
Sorry I've been MIA for a little while; I've only gotten to about 300 turns in a game with the dev version released prior to the current one - so no WTO yet...:sad: I was hoping to get some more stuff to comment on before posting, but the only thing I've found worth mentioning was the hammer increase for the forum: I thought it was a little too costly, but I see you have already lowered it! Most importantly, nothing seems broken or unbalanced with this build.:thumbsup:

I do have a couple quick questions for you if you don't mind, however. I'm playing with the latest Balance - Combined mod, which has some interesting new features to CS diplomacy:

and

*Do you think these adjustments conflict with tweaks you made in CSD? Because I'm only getting quests from CSs who I already have relations with (Diplo unit only - the SP for 20 minimum influence didn't seem to affect this). I will also ask about this in the B-C thread.
*Also, obviously I'm not getting any kill CS quests because you have turned them off - what value should I enter into the XML to turn them back on (I tried 0 but that didn't work), or should I simply delete that line?
[EDIT: Never mind, both of these issues are resolved in the new game I started. 0 is the correct value, and I'm getting missions normally.]

Once I get these issues sorted out I'll test it and let you know if I think they should be incorporated here.
Cheers, keep up the good work:)
Click to expand...

I like those additions. Killing the 'kill city-state' quest (appropriate?) was a stopgap attempt to keep 75% of CSs from wanting to kill other CSs. This made late-game quests almost always kill quests, thus ruining diversity. You did the right thing by setting the value to 0. You can also just erase the line, as redundancies might make the game sad.

It shouldn't conflict– the only quest-related changes I made concerned the time between quests (making quests more frequent) and the disabling of the kill city-state quest. Everything else I did relates to CS AI and production capacity.

Let me know what you think– perhaps a collaboration is in order with CCMAT (if he'll have me :lol:)

I was in quite a mountainous section of map so possibly. It was late game on a large map. 32 bit windows.
Click to expand...

Let me know if it happens again. It might be a perfect storm of memory peak + erratic pathfinding. If anyone else see this problem, let me know and I'll just remove the hover command from the ambassador (no more levitating ambassadors? NOOO!)

(No, they don't really float).


Keep up the good work, guys!
 
I've had the same problem with crash (v. 4) while giving the diplomatic unit long path through half of the world. Happened near end game. Diplo have to cross a big continent, embark and went through the ocean near the coast of smaller continent. Large or huge map. I agree it can be memory related. Few turns later I've had similar crash with moving my destroyer.
 
Gazebo,

You mention that you were able to
"Decreased the minimum time between City-State quests and increased the frequency to make the City-States more active."
"AI now heavily favors City-State alliance and friendship over conquest. Even Alexander!"

I took a look at your gameplay XML, but it wasn't clear to me what changes you made to get the AI (Civs) to alter their behavior.

I have been trying to control AI behavior in a mod I am making, and sometimes what works is not at all what I expected to work... Have you looked at how you can get the AI to gift gold to city-states more often? Or to specific types?

thanks
-Zen Blade
 
flymar said:
I've had the same problem with crash (v. 4) while giving the diplomatic unit long path through half of the world. Happened near end game. Diplo have to cross a big continent, embark and went through the ocean near the coast of smaller continent. Large or huge map. I agree it can be memory related. Few turns later I've had similar crash with moving my destroyer.
Click to expand...

I think it is memory related– how long had you been playing?
G
 
Zen Blade said:
Gazebo,

You mention that you were able to
"Decreased the minimum time between City-State quests and increased the frequency to make the City-States more active."
"AI now heavily favors City-State alliance and friendship over conquest. Even Alexander!"

I took a look at your gameplay XML, but it wasn't clear to me what changes you made to get the AI (Civs) to alter their behavior.

I have been trying to control AI behavior in a mod I am making, and sometimes what works is not at all what I expected to work... Have you looked at how you can get the AI to gift gold to city-states more often? Or to specific types?

thanks
-Zen Blade
Click to expand...

Zen,

In this file are the <defines> that I changed to get less aggressive AI-CS relations. Compare these values to the values in the GlobalDefines.xml and GlobalAIDefines.xml files.

Most are positive (higher) values than vanilla civ. I'm on my laptop (mac...) and thus cannot edit these files or present them in a more meaningful way than this. What exactly are you wanting to accomplish with your mod? Perhaps I can help if you give me a better understanding of what you want to do.

Cheers!
G
 
I hope this gets into CCMAT. I use the two mods exclusively, and it makes Civ5 a thousand times more fin.
 
Sonereal said:
You can already use both at the same time. :)
Click to expand...

I already do. As was pointed out, previous versions of CCMAT made diplomats look like spearman (R.E.D.). If this was in CCMAT, I'd think the mega-mod's maintainer would do conflict checks between all the mods included, so something like that won't happen in the future.
 
@TheHarshax- It's a workaround, but if you enable CSD after CCMAT the units will appear properly. Note, I would love it if this mod were in CCMAT!

@Gazebo-
I finally finished a game!:lol: Diplo win with Hiawatha (he's a monster with Thal's Balance mods, 6:c5production: Lumber Mills FTW!) a couple of observations/suggestions:
  1. At 1000:c5production:, the WTO seemed a little cheap. IIRC the WTO was originally 1200:c5production: which I think would be more appropriate - the Pentagon was harder to build and it appears earlier in the tech tree.
  2. I noticed at the *very* end (literally the last turn) that the Diplomatic Missions' (re: gold gift) prices were much reduced. Perhaps I missed the rationale for lowering, but I thought the 1k, 2k, 3k setup was pretty right on. I have some ideas to make this mechanic more engaging for when the SDK is released, let me know if you want to hear them.:)
  3. Little bugs - I had scouts in the late game crossing mountains occasionally and I was trying to wrest a CS from Gandhi but gave up after my influence reached 1100 and I *still* wasn't allied.:wallbash: But I forgive him, it was his only friend.:p

EDIT: Forgot to mention - I never did end up doing one of the "kill X CS" quests because it wasn't feasible in the game, so I'll have to get back to you on that. But even with the tweaks to quest type and frequency, it still seemed like a majority of the quests were of that type:( especially in the late game. The real problem with the quest mechanic is that they *never* expire until they're fulfilled.
 
Seek said:
@TheHarshax- It's a workaround, but if you enable CSD after CCMAT the units will appear properly. Note, I would love it if this mod were in CCMAT!

@Gazebo-
I finally finished a game!:lol: Diplo win with Hiawatha (he's a monster with Thal's Balance mods, 6:c5production: Lumber Mills FTW!) a couple of observations/suggestions:
  1. At 1000:c5production:, the WTO seemed a little cheap. IIRC the WTO was originally 1200:c5production: which I think would be more appropriate - the Pentagon was harder to build and it appears earlier in the tech tree.
  2. I noticed at the *very* end (literally the last turn) that the Diplomatic Missions' (re: gold gift) prices were much reduced. Perhaps I missed the rationale for lowering, but I thought the 1k, 2k, 3k setup was pretty right on. I have some ideas to make this mechanic more engaging for when the SDK is released, let me know if you want to hear them.:)
  3. Little bugs - I had scouts in the late game crossing mountains occasionally and I was trying to wrest a CS from Gandhi but gave up after my influence reached 1100 and I *still* wasn't allied.:wallbash: But I forgive him, it was his only friend.:p

EDIT: Forgot to mention - I never did end up doing one of the "kill X CS" quests because it wasn't feasible in the game, so I'll have to get back to you on that. But even with the tweaks to quest type and frequency, it still seemed like a majority of the quests were of that type:( especially in the late game. The real problem with the quest mechanic is that they *never* expire until they're fulfilled.
Click to expand...

Happy Thanksgiving all! Thanks for the updates, everyone.

- I'll buff the WTO back to 1200- did you like the bonus it gave?

- The gold gifts reduce in influence over time&#8211; this is a hard-coded factor of the game that I (as of yet) cannot influence. So yes, gold gift influence is abysmal late-game.

- Scouts? Crossing mountains? Hmm... I may need to explicitly forbid (using XML) other units access to the 'hover' promotion (or perhaps telecommunications in general). I'll take a look when I get back in town.

- I always want ideas and suggestions&#8211; keep them coming! Thanks all for the praise and feedback.

- Finally, for those of you who have won a diplo victory using CSD2, do you find it satisfying? That is the ultimate question, no?
G
 
Ive only played right the way through late game once using this mod so maybe others find it different.

I found that it was a little too easy later in the game, maybe the influence required should scale up a bit more, or diplo units could have less of an effect forcing you to complete more missions. Early game I think the effort required to gain CS is a bit more testing.

Then perhaps a few more difficult missions could be introduced (if this is possible). It would be interesting if city states asked you to capture certain cities or other objectives like natural wonders.
 
Gazebo said:
Happy Thanksgiving all! Thanks for the updates, everyone.

- I'll buff the WTO back to 1200- did you like the bonus it gave?
Click to expand...

Yes, though I think it should be nerfed a bit - maybe to 15-20 tiles.

- The gold gifts reduce in influence over time&#8211; this is a hard-coded factor of the game that I (as of yet) cannot influence. So yes, gold gift influence is abysmal late-game.
Click to expand...

More silly restrictions that have no justification, great.:p

- Scouts? Crossing mountains? Hmm... I may need to explicitly forbid (using XML) other units access to the 'hover' promotion (or perhaps telecommunications in general). I'll take a look when I get back in town.
Click to expand...

It's possible that it was the Tectonics mapscript that was causing this, some strange things happen with it. Either way, it was only once or twice so not a big deal.

- I always want ideas and suggestions&#8211; keep them coming! Thanks all for the praise and feedback.
Click to expand...

OK, you asked for it! Ideally I think we would want gold gifting missions to be more expensive, but tiered like they are now, exclusive and one-time only. In other words, when you first meet a CS, the only option under "Diplomatic Missions" is "Acquire Residency" - once you do so, "Establish Consulate" becomes available, etc. and you can't repeat them (maybe have them expire after a certain number of turns). Additionally, each level gives a unique bonus:
  • Acquire Residency allows the player to see the CS's territory at friendly status
  • Establish Consulate slows the rate of decay with that CS by 25%
  • Build Embassy allows the player to see all other civ's influence level with that CS
Let me know what you think!

- Finally, for those of you who have won a diplo victory using CSD2, do you find it satisfying? That is the ultimate question, no?
G
Click to expand...

As much as any of the others, and certainly much more so than the vanilla diplo win. Which is not terribly satisfying, but that's civ5's fault, not yours!
 
Hello everyone! I'm back in town, and will (hopefully) have time to look at the pathfinding bug and the general tweaks (as suggested by Seek and others).

I like your ideas, Seek, and would love to implement the tiered advancement idea (Residency--> Consulate --> Embassy) when the full SDK comes out. I could do it now through LUA scripting, however the AI would still be able to access all three tiers even if the player couldn't. Since this is unfair, I'll just wait. :)

Furthermore, you can only tie influence to gold gifts (for now). That should change in the future.

I should probably make a list of tweaks we want to do when the full SDK comes out.

I'll get to work on that this week if I get some free time.

Take care,
G
 
Welcome back. I just made it back to the office today after 5 days off!! What a holiday in WA state. Snow gridlocking entire area for 3 days (Ok, so I could drive; but didn't), than Thanks & Giving for 2 (Company gives Friday off as well), Than weekend. As I mentioned elsewhere; only 2k e-mails to read. :) Mmm.. coffee.

About the possible adaptation to the C2P mod. I think price of gold gift needs serious looking into if you want to use with that mod. In late game (I was going science win) America had 90k! That was in his bank besides being ally with a few CS's. Japan took one CS; but others survived. But with 90k; the AI could buy a diplo. I am unsure if there is a fix for use with that mod. As The gold goes on a increasing parabolic curve (Did I remember geometry right?). The Mod does fine with this as the cost of things ramps up as well. I don't know if you can code that at different era's the gift costs ramp or not.

Alternatively you could just make it impossible to gift until at least industrial by putting gifts at 10k, 15k, 20k.

I think my next game I'm going back to balanced and CS Diplo. Although fun; a horse rush + puppet = instant win with C2P. Regardless of diplo mod or not. 1K income, 750 Science, and I'm in renaissance is insane.
 
Hi!

Gazebo, I think I put civ5 to a rest until the next big patch.
I will come back to playtest CSD then :)

But I keep lurking around here, of coourse...
 
Gazebo said:
Hello everyone! I'm back in town, and will (hopefully) have time to look at the pathfinding bug and the general tweaks (as suggested by Seek and others).

I like your ideas, Seek, and would love to implement the tiered advancement idea (Residency--> Consulate --> Embassy) when the full SDK comes out. I could do it now through LUA scripting, however the AI would still be able to access all three tiers even if the player couldn't. Since this is unfair, I'll just wait. :)

Furthermore, you can only tie influence to gold gifts (for now). That should change in the future.

I should probably make a list of tweaks we want to do when the full SDK comes out.

I'll get to work on that this week if I get some free time.

Take care,
G
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, those ideas were made under the assumption that they're impossible till the full sdk is out.:p
 
Tiny map. Prince. 2 civs. 3 CS. My capital could pump a diplo (in every era) unit in 4 turns just since the tech discovery. Took 2 allies and the 3rd (Dublin) was taken by Arabia.I've noticed first time that the influenec counter is working above 200. I didn't know how many points Arabia had so I didn't try to take over Dublin. Instead I've just destroyed it (no chance for diplo victory cause I needed 5 votes). Overall the game went too smooth. I've ended at about 1800 with stealth bombers - I was eager to see that babies in flight:).
I'm using CCMAT, New Social Policies, RED v6 (diplos have propper graphics), CS pack and some civs.
One thing that bugs me in the CS diplomasy is the rate of decreasing influence - it's almost non-existant. I got slightly above Friendly and the Alliance remainded for *tee turns. In fact it never faded because of some wonders I built for the city. I know there should be a place for ths rude policies that make the CS like you less buy I think even with that the rate is too slow.

Other one is the lack of diversity in CS quests. I wish there were more and AFAIR Gazebo wrote something about adding some mission types in some future version of the mod. The question is what the missions kind can be? I can't think of anything great. All that comes to my mind is variations of current ones.
- make a road between us and other CS/other point on map
- make a railroad between us and ...
- give us specific unit (ore few of them)
- give us great person
- give us some blueprints, gold, paintings (x technology points/gold/culture)

I think the CS Leaderheads is a nice mod to work with CS Diplomacy. Nice to see the guys you dealing with:)
 
flymar said:
Tiny map. Prince. 2 civs. 3 CS. My capital could pump a diplo (in every era) unit in 4 turns just since the tech discovery. Took 2 allies and the 3rd (Dublin) was taken by Arabia.I've noticed first time that the influenec counter is working above 200. I didn't know how many points Arabia had so I didn't try to take over Dublin. Instead I've just destroyed it (no chance for diplo victory cause I needed 5 votes). Overall the game went too smooth. I've ended at about 1800 with stealth bombers - I was eager to see that babies in flight:).
I'm using CCMAT, New Social Policies, RED v6 (diplos have propper graphics), CS pack and some civs.
One thing that bugs me in the CS diplomasy is the rate of decreasing influence - it's almost non-existant. I got slightly above Friendly and the Alliance remainded for *tee turns. In fact it never faded because of some wonders I built for the city. I know there should be a place for ths rude policies that make the CS like you less buy I think even with that the rate is too slow.

Other one is the lack of diversity in CS quests. I wish there were more and AFAIR Gazebo wrote something about adding some mission types in some future version of the mod. The question is what the missions kind can be? I can't think of anything great. All that comes to my mind is variations of current ones.
- make a road between us and other CS/other point on map
- make a railroad between us and ...
- give us specific unit (ore few of them)
- give us great person
- give us some blueprints, gold, paintings (x technology points/gold/culture)

I think the CS Leaderheads is a nice mod to work with CS Diplomacy. Nice to see the guys you dealing with:)
Click to expand...

Flymar,

Were you playing on standard, quick, epic or marathon speed?

Also, what did you mean by : "I know there should be a place for ths rude policies that make the CS like you less buy I think even with that the rate is too slow."

Are you referring to policies like united front? It is possible to tweak these to make influence decrease more rapidly.

Also, 'too smooth?' Is that like being to sexy or too rich? :)

Personally, I find the difficulty of CS diplomacy decrease dramatically when you are only playing against 1 AI and have so few CSs– try a standard (or small) map with 6-12 CSs and you'll see the mod blossom.

I'll eventually add new CS quests once we have the capacity to do so. Haven't yet figured that out.

Thanks for the update!
G
 
I'm sorry for not being precise. I'm not using English in my 'normal' life.
* Epic
* I've meant that slow rate of decreasing influence could be somewhat justified by existence of special policies. I don't know the name of the policy but I'm sure there is one even in NSP mod.
* too smoth - too easy. Only barabarians were slowing me down in the first 2/3rd of the game.

I always choose random setting apart of difficulity and map size (above huge are crashing on me). Rndom civ and CS number from advanced setup. That always gives quite unique games, although sometimes they are not as challenging as I would like:)
 
Good that you try to get rid of this unintuitive system.
But - IMO - your system is also a litle far from something realistic.
- more quests is good thing
- getting rid of "destroy city-state"... I can get reasonig after that, but it could be resolved by making quest obsolve after some time (I think it is better to measure this time in turns not changed by game pace)
- use messengers... I have some ideas for that:
1) you have to send messenger to estamblish embassy (you have to pay for this) - when you do, you can:
a) take quests from CS
b) pay some gold to buy some time to make quest
c) declare paying GPT to make your influence increase/not decrease/decrease slower
2) you have to send messenger to recive reward from quest
3) messenger is the only unit that can negotiate peace
4) maybe you can use some kind of spy-messenger to destroy embassy of other player?

Those are my ideas, I like your mod anyway, but maybe there is something you could make use of :)
 
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