The Diversity of Civs

The whole idea of UU's came from old Civ games having Knights for every Civ, which was a bit odd for, say, Ghandi. Everyone playing Civ 2 probably thought - boy, I wish I could have Samurai instead of Japanese Knights.

That's part of why you see Knights being the most replaced unit when it comes to UU's. I think they do a pretty good job of spreading it out now, and the UU's generally make a lot of gameplay sense.
 
Not to nit-pick (and this isn't to lessen your bigger point), but why would America be European but Brazil non-European?

Which are these roll (sic) in European affairs that you speak of? I don't think that Brazil is any less European than US.. Or is it because most Americans have pale white skin? But even not every Europeans are white.. Or because of Brazil's Latin-origin language? But almost half of Europe speak Latin-origin language :confused:

fbass was being sarcastic, I think, but actually, yeah, it's pretty much an ethnicity thing. White people have long been overrepresented in the Civ series, and when people talk about "diversity," as in the OP, that's part of what they're talking about. It's an arbitrary distinction, to some extent: there are plenty of white people in Brazil, and plenty of non-white people in the US, and a few non-white people in Europe, but Brazil is much more diverse than the US or even the most diverse European countries (France, the Netherlands).
 
Of course, the only reason some of these civs get put in is to be PC.

That sounds distinctly insulting. I appreciate the fact that certain "lesser known" civilizations are put into the game. I don't want to see everything that I recognize from common historical knowledge. I want to see something and think "What/who/where was/is that?" And then I minimize, google/wikipedia and read for a few minutes.
It's not that Civ is educational, in fact it's something highly misleading, but it does introduce those of us who aren't history buffs to cultures we would otherwise largely ignore. Again, I'm not saying I learn from Civ. Just, that it offers references that I am then driven to investigate because I get curious.


But, bottom line, I don't think civs should be thought of as "just being there to be PC." That's like the token [race here] person in [that movie here]. Nobody should be thinking in those terms, it just implies inferiority.
 
Also, is anybody else bothered by the fact that Ghandi is the perpetual leader of India? Like really, can we please just have an Indian civ that is not led by Ghandi?

Some of the civs just seem so boring and out of context with the whole "great civilization" theme of the series.
 
To be honest its only historically accurate for the European nations to have their units and traits come in the late game since that's when that region had its dominant era, the other regions just had their dominant eras earlier.
 
But, bottom line, I don't think civs should be thought of as "just being there to be PC." That's like the token [race here] person in [that movie here]. Nobody should be thinking in those terms, it just implies inferiority.

PC as a concept is "distinctly insulting" for these very reasons, but the sad fact is that is why certain groups get put in these games. You could wax lyrical about, say, Nichelle Nichols' skills as an actress, but at the end of the day it's well-known she was added to the Star Trek cast because of her colour, not her ability.

Same in the case of many of the "PC" civs: certainly the Iroquois were an interesting experiment in communal tribal governance in their own right, but they're not in Civ because of their accomplishments as a civilisation, they're in Civ because Civ players want 'Injuns' and most Americans are at least broadly familiar with The Last of the Mohicans.

It's just almost the same, like Khmer (Cambodia) and Siam (Thailand). I guess this is one of the main reason why Khmer and Mali aren't included (for now at least).

Mali and Songhai share key cities in their list, which wouldn't be an issue with Siam/Khmer. I'd like to be able to say Siam was included for variety and to expose Civ IV players to a new culture, but given the cynicism expressed by the designers in their choice of Brazil and Indonesia (big gaming markets), and the fact that Thailand is the leading video game market in SE Asia, I suspect Siam is in because the Thais buy more computer games than the Cambodians.

1) Everybody would consider Byzantium European. They were culturally Greek and their main land holdings were in the Balkans.

Brazil's culturally European (you can point out that it's "close to Latin American" countries in a way, say, America is not - but since every Latin American country is of European origin this is immaterial). Byzantium's territorial extent is almost identical to that of the Ottomans - if we're treating the Ottomans as a European civ as well, that gives us two more medieval European civs.

2) When do you consider late-game? Are you going by renaissance era as late game? Because that's where most European civs tend to settle, and that's not late game. If going by industrial and later, you are not counting many european civs. However, if just going by pre-renaissance, you are forgetting the Celts and Germans (UA, UU early game focus). So that's 7 pre-renaissance European civs right there. That's not too bad.

Era by itself is fairly coarse; it's true that most European civs are Renaissance, but these are mostly late Renaissance (lots of Lancer replacements, Caroleans replacing Riflemen etc.) I had, indeed, forgotten the Celts (deservedly so, in my view) - you're right that I neglected Germany (also, technically, France, who now have only a medieval UU, however they don't have an early-game playstyle).

3) Huns aren't medieval in focus.

Okay, another I missed - I'm tending to think of Asia in this context as India eastwards.

So that's 4 Asian civs focused in medieval (China, Japan, Mongolia, Indonesia, maybe Siam but they have a university UB).

Education is medieval tech, albeit late. This time you missed a civ: Korea.

To be fair with Japan, even in WW2 they retained those traditions from the medieval era. That might be a fair amount, but those were very famous times for these civilizations, so it's understandable.

Japan is understandable. India's a bit of a mess - it could be understood if it was a Mughal-era focused civ, but it isn't, and the ancient Indus Valley civ isn't a particularly famous time in India's history (or one particularly associated with war elephants). China could also quite readily be a modern civ. India is the one with the most obvious UU choice in the Ghorka (granted, Ghurkas are better-known as Nepalese, and are not particularly famous as an Indian unit even though Indian Ghorkas exist, but it's at least as good a fit as Maori Warriors for Polynesia).

Isn't Thailand pretty much the modern incarnation of the Siamese Empire?

While it is, the "Siamese empire" in the game does not represent the Siamese empire of reality, but a prior kingdom - Sukothai - which was ultimately conquered and annexed by the later Siamese state.

The East Asian building graphics for the Southeast Asian civs makes no sense at all. Polynesia's graphics for them would be much more suitable

A South/Southeast Asian building style that could also be applied to Polynesia would make more sense than the reverse, since the Polynesians don't have a native stone architecture and the base game already contained two civs - India and Siam - that could use the style.

When you say "can you think of one Asian country that is currently successful" etc., presumably you mean "that's not already represented in the game"? Because every Asian country in the game (perhaps with the exception of Thailand) fits the bill. Japan and Korea (and Vietnam) in particular are countries that have been most "successful" in modern times.

Malaysia is a rather obvious one: it was one of the leading 'tiger economies' of the 1990s and Kuala Lumpur remains one of the world's major financial centres and transport hubs even if - like (then less successful) Thailand - it's of less regional importance today.
 
You could wax lyrical about, say, Nichelle Nichols' skills as an actress, but at the end of the day it's well-known she was added to the Star Trek cast because of her colour, not her ability.

They didn't pick Nichelle Nichols out of a hat. That's like looking at a black actor playing Othello and saying, "oh, he was cast because of his color, not his ability."
 
PC as a concept is "distinctly insulting" for these very reasons, but the sad fact is that is why certain groups get put in these games. You could wax lyrical about, say, Nichelle Nichols' skills as an actress, but at the end of the day it's well-known she was added to the Star Trek cast because of her colour, not her ability.

Same in the case of many of the "PC" civs: certainly the Iroquois were an interesting experiment in communal tribal governance in their own right, but they're not in Civ because of their accomplishments as a civilisation, they're in Civ because Civ players want 'Injuns' and most Americans are at least broadly familiar with The Last of the Mohicans.

I have always considered the Civilization series to be themed around Great Leaders, not necessarily the cultures they lead. This frames everything in a way that doesn't really allow for PC/not PC because it completely precludes cultural or racial bias. That's how I view it.

I don't agree with the Injun bit or Nichols. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point, because there's no real debate to be had over it.
 
fbass was being sarcastic, I think, but actually, yeah, it's pretty much an ethnicity thing. White people have long been overrepresented in the Civ series, and when people talk about "diversity," as in the OP, that's part of what they're talking about. It's an arbitrary distinction, to some extent: there are plenty of white people in Brazil, and plenty of non-white people in the US, and a few non-white people in Europe, but Brazil is much more diverse than the US or even the most diverse European countries (France, the Netherlands).

Seriously? Here's a tip from a resident european AND brazilian: It's not the colour of your skin that makes you European, it's your ancestry and your culture. Brazil, like the vast majority of modern day America, is the direct result of and heavily influenced by european powers. And really, if they aren't European, then what are they? Native American? Tell that to the native minority hiding in the middle of the Amazon!

Also, speaking of native americans, I can't help but be a little annoyed that Pocatello is considered a "great leader" of his civilisation. What did Pocatello achieve? According to the Civilopedia (I know, bad source, but that's the place where they're supposed to justify choosing that leader), practically ZILCH! His rule was a series of defeats and concessions, and, all in all, he didn't do a single noteworthy thing or rule any kind of grand "empire". And this man is supposed to be treated as an equal of Augustus Caesar or Genghis Khan? Please.
 
European or perhaps more correctly the western world is Canada, USA and Europa cut off at eastern germany.

South America, Africa, Middle East, Asia was either enslaved by the western world or not interesting enough, stunting growth in those areas.

Canada is a nice country, thats why it isn't a civ, it never enslaved and butchered others or was enslaved and butchered by others, they just haven't done bad crap to make a mark on history.
 
Also why is Napoleon always the French leader? It's almost as insulting and boring as Ghandi.
What about Philip II? Can this game get any more stereotypical?
And what about the Chukonu. Boring and stereotypical.
 
They didn't pick Nichelle Nichols out of a hat. That's like looking at a black actor playing Othello and saying, "oh, he was cast because of his color, not his ability."

For Star Trek, there was no need for a black actor - Roddenberry decided on one. And you are I suspect overestimating the availability of black actresses at the time. Come to that, you can hardly claim anyone in the Star Trek cast was chosen on the basis of their acting ability - look at Shatner.

I have always considered the Civilization series to be themed around Great Leaders, not necessarily the cultures they lead. This frames everything in a way that doesn't really allow for PC/not PC because it completely precludes cultural or racial bias. That's how I view it.

So where do the Iroquois fit there? Hiawatha is a mythical or at least semi-mythical figure, not a real leader. It's only in Civ V that the designers appear to share your perspective on civ choices, and then to a limited degree (Attila and Gustav were unlikely to have been chosen for the virtues of their civilizations); they're on record as specifying the reasons for the selections of the BNW civs specifically, and none (not even the Zulu) were chosen "because Leader X". Past Civ games have not always had the greatest leader choices (Stalin as the leader of a nation that boasted Peter the Great? Suryavarman II, known only for constructing Angkor Wat, but no Jayarvaryman VII, who presided over the greatest period of expansion and monument-building in the Khmer empire?) Indeed Civ V has been roundly criticised for choosing "PC" leaders for series-established civs, such as Theodora, Boudicca and Dido.

Also, speaking of native americans, I can't help but be a little annoyed that Pocatello is considered a "great leader" of his civilisation. What did Pocatello achieve? According to the Civilopedia (I know, bad source, but that's the place where they're supposed to justify choosing that leader), practically ZILCH! His rule was a series of defeats and concessions, and, all in all, he didn't do a single noteworthy thing or rule any kind of grand "empire". And this man is supposed to be treated as an equal of Augustus Caesar or Genghis Khan? Please.

At least they explained this in the BNW design article - the Shoshone are meant to be the "victim civ", the one you end up confining to reservations as you expand but feel guilty about because they're decent people. So a leader who presided over a tragic decline fits the design ideal nicely. It seems, though, that they were always perceived as an AI civ to present the player with a dilemma, not an actual civ to play.

Also why is Napoleon always the French leader? It's almost as insulting and boring as Ghandi.

I don't think anyone can really dispute Napoleon's claim to be a great leader.
 
If we're talking early-game/late-game at least partially from a gameplay perspective and not just from an aesthetic perspective, I think it's important to distinguish early-game benefits from all-game benefits.

Take something like the Hoplite. It's a Greek spearman replacement with higher combat strength and no other properties. It's about as far as you can get on the side of a truly early-game-only benefit. Once you have no more spearman in your army, the fact that the hoplite exists doesn't affect anything at all. It still helps you build momentum that can help you out in the long term, but its direct mechanical effects on the game are just gone once spearmen cycle out of your army.

Now take something like the Burial Tomb. Compared to a temple, it generates +2 happiness and costs 0 gold to maintain instead of 2. Those are benefits that last the whole game! Even though it's a classical-era building, it's still trucking away providing +2 happiness/city all the way though. While it'd be classified as an "early game" benefit, it's really a full-game benefit. You can make a perfectly good argument that the relative value of the benefit compared to a regular temple ablates a bit as the game goes on, but it doesn't ablate that much. Unique buildings, in general, tend to be all-game benefits disguised as early-game benefits.

Of course, there's all kinds of things in the middle. Maori Warriors, for example, keep their Haka promotion after they're upgraded, so as long as you have some units that were once Maori Warriors, you're still reaping some direct mechanical benefit from the fact that they exist, even though they require literally zero techs.

A good example of this is the Aztecs; they have two ancient-era unique items, but both have the ability to port their usefulness forward, with the Jaguar passing on its promotions and the Floating Gardens remaining relevant as a food boost forever. While Aztecs do shine early (it pays for them to go to war quickly), they can continue to enjoy at least some direct benefits of all three of their unique features all game.
 
Also why is Napoleon always the French leader? It's almost as insulting and boring as Ghandi.
What about Philip II? Can this game get any more stereotypical?
And what about the Chukonu. Boring and stereotypical.

What's wrong with Chu-Ko-Nu? It's a pretty cool weapon that was associated with China for a long time. It's a pretty logical replacement for the crossbow. I also don't see the problem with Napoleon. I agree that there may be better leaders, but that's true for any civ. As an American, I'd prefer Thomas Jefferson, as Washington was a rather unremarkable ruler. Competent, but unremarkable.
 
At least they explained this in the BNW design article - the Shoshone are meant to be the "victim civ", the one you end up confining to reservations as you expand but feel guilty about because they're decent people. So a leader who presided over a tragic decline fits the design ideal nicely. It seems, though, that they were always perceived as an AI civ to present the player with a dilemma, not an actual civ to play.

Kind of hard to do that when Pocatello has the second highest score and is gunning for my cultural victory. Plus he hates me.

I just find it odd how Napoleon is always the leader of France. It's like pre-Napoleonic era France doesn't exist as far as popular culture is concerned.
 
Kind of hard to do that when Pocatello has the second highest score and is gunning for my cultural victory. Plus he hates me.

I just find it odd how Napoleon is always the leader of France. It's like pre-Napoleonic era France doesn't exist as far as popular culture is concerned.

It could be worse.

It could have been Joan of Arc.
 
Malaysia is a rather obvious one: it was one of the leading 'tiger economies' of the 1990s and Kuala Lumpur remains one of the world's major financial centres and transport hubs even if - like (then less successful) Thailand - it's of less regional importance today.

Nah, Malaysia's rise is much too new to be put in Civ by those merits, and for their old merits they overlap with Indonesia way too much. Unfortunately they are destined never to be in Civ as "Malaysia" but they can take pride in being in it as Majapahit, etc
 
Nah, Malaysia's rise is much too new to be put in Civ by those merits, and for their old merits they overlap with Indonesia way too much. Unfortunately they are destined never to be in Civ as "Malaysia" but they can take pride in being in it as Majapahit, etc

Or as Kuala Lumpur and Malacca...
 
I think the reason for set leaders is pretty much because of art development time. Each leader needs a variety of artwork done for them.

Could they pick "generic" French leader without a name and just let you play with him/her? Sure, but they instead choose to give the leaders specific personalities based off of historical figures, probably because its easier to relate to "historic" figures rather than generic leaders.

Could they add more leaders per civ? Yes, but at the cost of development time, money, and staff.

So we are unfortunately stuck with one leader for each civ.

On the bright side, we can always use the advanced setup to add in unique names for our own leaders.
 
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