It should be possible to ignore the world congress/UN at a diplomatic cost

One thing that doesn't make sense about the world congress/UN is that everybody is FORCED to be a apart of it and accept it's resolutions.

I personally don't think it makes sense either from a gameplay or a historical point of view that this is the case.

Just like in the real world, civs should have the option of ignoring UN resolutions if they completely hate them at the expense of suffering from decreased diplomatic relations with the rest of the world.

I feel it should be completely possible for a civ (or the player) to basically become some kind of a North-Korea if that civ/player wants to walk down that path, being basically completely isolated from an economic and a diplomatic point of view but at the benefit of being able to ignore the will of the UN.

When a UN passes a resolution I feel there should be an option for a Civ to basically say "screw this" and to just ignore it at the price of everyone else liking it less with the expection of other civs who also make a habit of ignoring the UN.

EDIT: I should also add that how much a civ should hate another civ for ignoring the UN should depend on the civ itself. A civ that is itself likely to dislike the will of the UN should not really care if other civs disrespect the UN but more diplomatic civs should get really angry when other civs decide to ignore the UN.

Thoughts?

I agree completely.

If you could leave the WC if a resolution got through, the WC would be a completely useless addition to the game. Diplomatic penalties? Warmongers don't care about being hated.

The whole point of the WC is to help more diplomatic players keep an edge in the game and fight back against warmongers without having to massacre several nations. Giving the option to just quit the WC like that would throw all the power back into the warmonger's hands again.

Gameplay trumps realism.

It would make it pointless, its a gameplay decision to make them mandatory. In the previous games you could defy and even though there was penalties it was still worth it if the policy was bad enough.

Mandatory makes for a better game.

This would encourage warmongering, I still don't know whether that is great or bad.
You'd say "Screw that" and continue on killing everyone that thinks you're a moron now.

Didn't the UN from Civ 4 allow players to defy a resolution at a severe diplomatic penalty? That is, the parties that voted for the resolution would declare war on the resolution-defying party.

Maybe if defying the resolution essentially resulted in automatic embargo, or even across-the-board DoW. Maybe even a quasi-NATO effect where foreign legion units appear up in your country.

There are ways to do it.

I think it would add an interesting dynamic to the gameplay if you could defy the resolutions at a serious diplomatic penalty. (By serious I mean the next resolution would probably be a trade embargo against you supported by basically everybody, and very possibly across the board DOWs.) The world could come together to deal with rogue states.

I like the idea of not listening to the world congress, but there would have to be an insanely severe punishment for balancing reasons.

Not being able to trade, and going to war a lot. Isn't that what most Warmongers already do, though?

If you could simply ignore the World Congress it would break the mechanic. A human player would be able to abuse it without any real repercussions, so I'll have to say no thank you to this

You can ignore the UN.. and pay the following diplomatic costs
Loss of happiness (luxuries)
Loss of gold
Loss of trade routes
Increased ideology pressure.
No nukes
Someone else wins the game

These are the potential diplomatic costs of ignoring the UN

Gucumatz said:

If you could simply ignore the World Congress it would break the mechanic. A human player would be able to abuse it without any real repercussions, so I'll have to say no thank you to this

Click to expand...

If I recall correctly, this was basically the case in Civ 4. The AI would mostly follow resolutions with the very odd exception, while human players could just take their pick and laugh at the largely toothless late game diplo penalty. At best, it was a poor gameplay mechanic that removed all interesting decision making from the UN. At worst, it was just abused.

Civilization doesn't strive for perfect realism, and it is a better game for it.

Invent a new status (à la being embargoed) - call them rogue states - automatically applied when you ragequit the UN.

Its effects would be:

• Embargoed (by all non-rogue states, since the rogue states ignore UN resolutions)
• Cannot set up trade routes with non-allied city states
• Cannot vote in UN elections
• Not affected by any other UN resolutions (whether they were enacted before going rogue or not) and cannot participate in any international games
• Can only be removed by a UN vote (possibly a supermajority?)
• If a certain fraction (>2/3, maybe?) of civs are rogue states at the same time, the UN is dissolved, and all UN effects end (including the rogue state statuses)

Not only does this give the penalty for leaving the UN some teeth, it creates an interesting 'axis of evil' type situation where just a few states can work together to blunt the pain of defying the world.

KrikkitTwo said:

You can ignore the UN.. and pay the following diplomatic costs
Loss of happiness (luxuries)
Loss of gold
Loss of trade routes
Increased ideology pressure.
No nukes
Someone else wins the game

These are the potential diplomatic costs of ignoring the UN

Click to expand...

Sounds just like what North Korea is getting through today lol

KrikkitTwo said:

...No nukes

Click to expand...

Except this.

That Other Guy said:

Invent a new status (à la being embargoed) - call them rogue states - automatically applied when you ragequit the UN.

Its effects would be:

• Embargoed (by all non-rogue states, since the rogue states ignore UN resolutions)
• Cannot set up trade routes with non-allied city states
• Cannot vote in UN elections
• Not affected by any other UN resolutions (whether they were enacted before going rogue or not) and cannot participate in any international games
• Can only be removed by a UN vote (possibly a supermajority?)
• If a certain fraction (>2/3, maybe?) of civs are rogue states at the same time, the UN is dissolved, and all UN effects end (including the rogue state statuses)

Not only does this give the penalty for leaving the UN some teeth, it creates an interesting 'axis of evil' type situation where just a few states can work together to blunt the pain of defying the world.

Click to expand...

I like this. Thinking it should hurt your tourism spread as well. Making it harder for yours to spread outward and a little harder for others to get in. Not following the UN needs to be a strict punishment.

KrikkitTwo wins this thread. Abstain from all the World Congress votes... at your own risk!

If you defy the UN, every civ should automatically declare war on you

That would free you from the proposals that you don't like and give everyone their "suicidal AI war machine" fix

I don't see any reason for these changes. If penalties for defying WC will be bigger than discomfort from ignoring it, defying will be pointless. And if they'll be smaller, it would make WC itself pointless.

Honestly, what "punishments" have the AI enacted that are so dreadful that the penalties described above would equate what you lost through the resolution? This just seems unnecessary, if ragequitting the UN auto-embargoes you then the worst thing the UN can possibly do to you, embargo you, is going to happen anyways. Not to mention if beneficial cultural policies have been passed (like + to landmark output or + to national wonder output) YOU will be getting less culture from these things making you more susceptible to an enemy culture victory. I guess it would be realistic in that, just like north korea, you would be completely screwing yourself over. Maybe they could even add some diplomatic retaliation features for the rogue states! Firstly, you are always at with everyone else but they will not attack you, you may casually harass them but are unable to capture cities. Kidnap and ransom visiting tourists and win a free visit from your favorite basketball hero. Stationing a diplomat in an enemies capital = +10 meth production in that city -10 science hammer and food production. Cruise Missiles can be launched in to empty water tiles for a relations bonus. Shelling city state units with artillery may net you additional income in the form of bribes. All cities always have negative food production no matter where you build them, the only way to fix this is to beg the chinese to send food caravans full of rice to your cities. When times are tough, may rent out your factory in each city with the best soviet weapons repair technicians to other dictators for a small gold per turn boost (note, nations in the UN can intercept your antiquated repair shipments like trade routes can be plundered and then promptly take 3 weeks to unload them because your suicidal crew cut the cables.) Start building a wonder which has few practical purposes in your capital while masses starve for a temporary tourism boost at the expense of 5000 gold. Lastly, they automatically are not affected by the tourism bonus the internet grants if any other Nation researches it.