I've heard the Naval AI in BNW is really bad. But what about at Immortal difficulty?

Leathaface · Mar 11, 2015

I have played up to Emperor difficulty, which I can win fairly easy now. However i've never played Naval maps due to the naval AI supposedly being atrocious.

However does the Naval AI get better on Inmortal level? If a go to war with the AI on Immortal will I easily win sink their ships?

Naokaukodem · Mar 11, 2015

What's the pleasure of a ranged fight "i'm out of range hahaha" "no now it's me who is out of range hahah" ? Because with such a system that's how must come multiplayer games. Rather ininteresting and stressing.

beetle · Mar 11, 2015

The AI does not get any smarter on higher levels, they just get more units. As I moved up difficulty levels, I found that watery maps at first made things easier. You may be ready just to bump up the difficulty level. There are lots of interesting naval UU, so I definitely recommend trying maps other than Pangaea.

Peter Sagan · Mar 11, 2015

That's why I like Oval. You've got a nice Pangaea but it also provides an inland sea where you can conquer coastal cities.

reddishrecue · Mar 11, 2015

If you want to sink units in water maps, make sure you have iron in your island for the renaissance era. Mass frigates can be OP in water maps if you have iron. If an immortal ai has iron in a water map and you decide to go to war, good luck, and not only that, the AI is usually smart so by the time they attack you, they will be at a very advanced era like the modern era. Once they are in the modern era, they can build destroyers and battleships which can be really OP by the time you're still in renaissance even if you have iron. I recommend that you guys use submarines if this happens because thats the soonest you can get to modern era anti sea units.

megabearsfan · Mar 11, 2015

A.I. doesn't get better at higher difficulties. At least, not in the sense that it makes better decisions. The A.I.s just get crazy bonuses that let them grow, tech, and build faster, so they have more units. So they'll just have more units to stupidly throw away at you, and maybe - just maybe - they overwhelm you with mass numbers of Caravels and Frigates.

Peter Sagan said:
That's why I like Oval. You've got a nice Pangaea but it also provides an inland sea where you can conquer coastal cities.

I am also fond of the Oval maps. It's just too bad that civs generally don't start close enough to each other that you get early-game naval warfare across small seas or bays :/

DocRock · Mar 11, 2015

@Reddishrecue, you should aim to overtake the Immortal in science before the Modern Era, it helps a lot.

AI is not getting better as mentioned, but on Immortal you really have to make sure that you at least have a navy if you have coastal cities or try a sea-based invasion. Otherwise you can run into a serious problem. Frigates and Privateers can be a major problem, even Triremes and Galeasses. They can easily capture your cities. A good defense in my oppinion is a Frigate + Artillery in your coastal city. The AI is too dumb to rotate their units correctly for a chain of attacks, especially if there is only one tile of water next to your city.

On the other hand, a Fleet of 7-8 own ships (5-6 ranged, 2-3 melee) can be enoug to win you a map with continents / isalnds on their own.

beetle · Mar 11, 2015

Peter Sagan said:
That's why I like Oval. You've got a nice Pangaea but it also provides an inland sea where you can conquer coastal cities.

megabearsfan said:
I am also fond of the Oval maps. It's just too bad that civs generally don't start close enough to each other that you get early-game naval warfare across small seas or bays

I have not tried an Oval map. The description makes it sound like the only practical difference between Oval and Pangaea is that the ocean is centered on the screen instead of being on the left and right. How does that really change the game? I feel navies are still significant with Pangaea, so I am not groking how Oval mixes that up.

reddishrecue · Mar 11, 2015

DocRock said:
@Reddishrecue, you should aim to overtake the Immortal in science before the Modern Era, it helps a lot.

AI is not getting better as mentioned, but on Immortal you really have to make sure that you at least have a navy if you have coastal cities or try a sea-based invasion. Otherwise you can run into a serious problem. Frigates and Privateers can be a major problem, even Triremes and Galeasses. They can easily capture your cities. A good defense in my oppinion is a Frigate + Artillery in your coastal city. The AI is too dumb to rotate their units correctly for a chain of attacks, especially if there is only one tile of water next to your city.

On the other hand, a Fleet of 7-8 own ships (5-6 ranged, 2-3 melee) can be enoug to win you a map with continents / isalnds on their own.

Another science victory in immortal, why not? I have had 2 science victories in immortal already, one with maya and the other with england.

I like your frigate artillery defense but they could often fall victim to offensive submarine attacks that can hide from artillery fire, frigates and be able plunder your cargo ships that are in external trade routes.

Aheadatime · Mar 12, 2015

beetle said:
I have not tried an Oval map. The description makes it sound like the only practical difference between Oval and Pangaea is that the ocean is centered on the screen instead of being on the left and right. How does that really change the game? I feel navies are still significant with Pangaea, so I am not groking how Oval mixes that up.

I'm not much of an oval player, but I would assume oval makes it more interesting by locking in the water-arena. Open ocean can lead to "kiting wars", whereas an inland sea is sort of a death match.

beetle · Mar 12, 2015

I like your “Death Match” description, but that may be a little optimistic! If you can put 3 hexes between you an AI they don’t usually pursue, and the inland sea gives enough room for that.

OTOH, I have also had plenty of Pangaea where, because of the ice, there were two oceans instead of one, and an inland sea will never have that defect! Next time I feel like Pangaea, I will try Oval instead, but I will miss that there is not a “plus” variant.

shaglio · Mar 12, 2015

beetle said:
Next time I feel like Pangaea, I will try Oval instead, but I will miss that there is not a “plus” variant.

Or you could combine the two and play . . . Ring I thing it's called (I'm at work so I can't look it up) and have both an inner sea and an outer ocean, while still playing a single landmass.

EDIT: Or maybe it's Donut I'm thinking of. One gives you an inner sea and the other gives you a choice between an inner sea and an inner mountain range.

Leathaface · Mar 12, 2015

So if I were to try an Archipelago map on immortal difficulty, Naval warfare would provide a big enough challenge? I won't have a very easy time?

ThorHammerz · Mar 12, 2015

Leathaface said:
So if I were to try an Archipelago map on immortal difficulty, Naval warfare would provide a big enough challenge? I won't have a very easy time?

Hi Leathaface, think of it this way:

The "I WIN" condition on any "all starts are coastal" map (such as Archipelago, Small Continents, Tiny Islands) is simply:

- Find everyone
- Build 6-7 Frigates (or Ships of the Line if England)
- Build 2 Privateers
- Secure a Great Admiral from Exploration Policy Tree
- Go and ransack all their capitals

Send reinforcements of crossbows and Frigates to hold your newly acquired cities as needed.

Rinse, Lather, and Repeat.

TL;DR - "What challenge...?"

LordBalkoth · Mar 12, 2015

ThorHammerz said:
TL;DR - "What challenge...?"

Knowing how to tech quickly enough to get to those in time and then knowing how to wage war effectively enough to conquer and hold the cities?

I mean, I could say land war on Deity is just as simple and give a similar "checklist." What's easy for me may not be easy for you, and what's easy for you may not be easy for Leathaface. There's a reason people constantly ask for help to be able to win on Immortal/Deity.

Leathaface said:
So if I were to try an Archipelago map on immortal difficulty, Naval warfare would provide a big enough challenge? I won't have a very easy time?

It really depends on YOU. If you catch up to them in tech, then surge ahead, and are using Frigates while they have Galleasses at best then it'll be trivial. If you are only relatively even or still behind on tech and you get into naval wars and slug fests at the capital it'll be a lot harder. If you're behind in tech and wind up only capturing a single capital before running into Submarines and Battleships then you're in trouble.

As said, the AI is the same at all difficulties. What changes are their initial benefits, their bonuses to gold/science/faith/culture/etc, and the bonuses they get to building stuff. Deity isn't harder because the AI is smarter, it's because it'll outtech and overrun you (or simply launch) if you don't know what you're doing.

ThorHammerz · Mar 12, 2015

LordBalkoth said:
I mean, I could say land war on Deity is just as simple and give a similar "checklist." What's easy for me may not be easy for you, and what's easy for you may not be easy for Leathaface. There's a reason people constantly ask for help to be able to win on Immortal/Deity.

I accept that everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses, and I do apologize as I do not mean any offence.

However, the issue still remains: as incompetent as the tactical (and to an extent, the strategic) AI is, when fighting land wars they can still pose a challenge as they are capable of sending a (mini)-carpet of doom at you. However, the AI will possess an extremely lacklustre force of ships regardless of what difficulty you are on: the main difference is generally how many land units are stuffed into the island/continent.

The point still remains that "naval warfare" against the AI is for all intents and purposes, just somewhat short of a joke.

Nscorz · Mar 13, 2015

ThorHammerz said:
However, the issue still remains: as incompetent as the tactical (and to an extent, the strategic) AI is, when fighting land wars they can still pose a challenge as they are capable of sending a (mini)-carpet of doom at you. However, the AI will possess an extremely lacklustre force of ships regardless of what difficulty you are on: the main difference is generally how many land units are stuffed into the island/continent.

The point still remains that "naval warfare" against the AI is for all intents and purposes, just somewhat short of a joke.

Agreed. I've played on Deity just for kicks, and I've noticed similar issues with the naval AI. I can only think of two exceptions off the top of my head, and even they might perform poorly: Venice and England. Venice will always be surrounded by galleasses, while England will eventually build ships of the line. But more often then not I'll scout them out early and they'll just be surrounded by trebuchets or whatever UU/land units in their era. Needs moar testing though

NiceOneEmlyn · Mar 13, 2015

Nscorz said:
I can only think of two exceptions off the top of my head, and even they might perform poorly: Venice and England. Venice will always be surrounded by galleasses, while England will eventually build ships of the line. But more often then not I'll scout them out early and they'll just be surrounded by trebuchets or whatever UU/land units in their era. Needs moar testing though

I played a couple of these at epic (easier) speed, and I was taken aback by the size of Portugal and Holland's Navies. On one occasion, Dutch Sea Beggars came out of the deep blue sea (undetected) and obliterated my Navy in one fowl swoop! Not only did I loose my Navy, they mostly became subjects of the Dutch Realm. I havn't played against Turkey yet but I would imagine they could also be quite formidable!

reddishrecue · Mar 13, 2015

NiceOneEmlyn said:
I played a couple of these at epic (easier) speed, and I was taken aback by the size of Portugal and Holland's Navies. On one occasion, Dutch Sea Beggars came out of the deep blue sea (undetected) and obliterated my Navy in one fowl swoop! Not only did I loose my Navy, they mostly became subjects of the Dutch Realm. I havn't played against Turkey yet but I would imagine they could also be quite formidable!

Yeah, so can carthage and polynesia because theyre good at water maps. Vikings can also be good since their embarked units that land on other lands dont waste á turn like other civilizations.

NiceOneEmlyn · Mar 13, 2015

reddishrecue said:
Yeah, so can carthage and polynesia because theyre good at water maps. Vikings can also be good since their embarked units that land on other lands dont waste á turn like other civilizations.

Yes, good point about Carthage. I can't imagine Polynesia or the Vikings forming a decent sized Navy though! I think these types of games are very rarely played by the majority of members, so we have very little to go by.

I've heard the Naval AI in BNW is really bad. But what about at Immortal difficulty?

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