Why is Babylon a Top Tier nation?

Athenaeum

Prince
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Mar 20, 2015
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Recently I read a tier list where Babylon was placed at the top. Why would Babylon be consider top tier?

I understand the early great scientist is badass, and if you combine that with early NC (and maybe Great Library) then that would be even better. But still, I don't feel like that and the great scientist bonus they receive is enough to make them a top tier nation.
 
8 science from academy at point where the rest of your "empire" doesn't even produce as much makes for excellent early runaways. On the first glance, the advantage doesn't look like much, but it's the nature of civ games. The earlier you get a bonus, the bigger is the advantage.
 
If you use babylon with tradition, oligarchy, its walls and its unique unit bowman, you can get a good primitive defense in your area. I'm guessing this is why Babylon is considered a top tier because it tops off so well with tradition it seem. Babylon's uniqueness go well with tradition.
 
Babylon is considered top-tier because they can effectively double their beakers upon researching writing. Their bonus is incredibly powerful, the fact that their UU and UB are well-suited to defending a tall empire very early is just icing on the cake.
 
Also consider that their GS generation bonus means Babylon can propose and pass Arts Funding in the WC (which is usually a nice diplo boost with most AIs) and STILL produce great scientists faster than a vanilla civ, while slowing down everyone else...

Crus8r
 
Also consider that their GS generation bonus means Babylon can propose and pass Arts Funding in the WC (which is usually a nice diplo boost with most AIs) and STILL produce great scientists faster than a vanilla civ, while slowing down everyone else...

Crus8r

Good point - Proposing Arts funding is possibly one of the best moves you can make in Diety to build good relations with other civs.

But to the original poster as others have said it is definitely the combination of science + early defense.
The boost to science does not just benefit a science victory but any victory type. If you have a science lead you can be guaranteed to get Forbidden Palace first if you are playing a diplomatic victory, likewise with a culture victory you can have first pick of the Wonders and get to Internet first.
The upgraded walls and bowmen mean that you can settle your cities near warmongers and be pretty well guaranteed to have a military advantage.
 
If you use babylon with tradition, oligarchy, its walls and its unique unit bowman, you can get a good primitive defense in your area. I'm guessing this is why Babylon is considered a top tier because it tops off so well with tradition it seem. Babylon's uniqueness go well with tradition.

I'll be perfectly honest: the extra city defence (in the form of an archer replacement + wall replacement) is most likely the last thing one would consider when deciding whether or not to play Babylon - the science (Great Scientist) boost simply outshines and eclipses everything else.

How often are you going to even build walls...? You're going to be killing Barbarians perfectly fine with a fortified normal archer anyway, a stronger one just means you get to pew-pew with the same effect unless you're going to war with another civ in the early classical era.
 
How often do I build walls...pretty much every game, in every city...but, as you may have guessed, I like Autocracy, and Fortified Borders gives happy for no maintenance (of course, the walls themselves don't, but you gotta build them first...) Even if I go with Freedom or Order, I usually try (and succeed) to get Nauschwanstein, which makes Castles AWESOME, and castles require walls...

I actually think the best thing about the Bowman is when your far-ranging scout stumbles across a late ruin and gets a weapon upgrade, he is a bit stouter and more likely to survive to make it home to get upgraded :lol:

But, yeah, the REAL reason to play Babylon is definitely the science...although I must admit I really like their colors and symbol, and actually think the walls look a little nicer than usual

Crus8r
 
I'll be perfectly honest: the extra city defence (in the form of an archer replacement + wall replacement) is most likely the last thing one would consider when deciding whether or not to play Babylon - the science (Great Scientist) boost simply outshines and eclipses everything else.

How often are you going to even build walls...? You're going to be killing Barbarians perfectly fine with a fortified normal archer anyway, a stronger one just means you get to pew-pew with the same effect unless you're going to war with another civ in the early classical era.

Well my only Diety game as Babylon I did my 4 city tradition but I was next to Monty who of course attacked me. Needless to say that Babylonian Bowmen and walls saved me from losing 1 city and from there it could have cost me the game.
 
I like to say that Babylon is every new player's favourite civ.

It's a mean thing to say, but they are incredibly easy to play. Research writing and get one of the very few ACTUALLY free great people and have an advantage for the rest of the game.
 
I somehow don't like Babylon. They are so tailored for a SV and I think they do worse than Korea in every other aspect. There Bowmen... Not my cup of tea. They come too early for my style of play and I am usually not ready for a rush t that time. Against Barbarians, Bowmen are just a "win more" unit because an Archer can do exactly the same. And after that, Composites are only two techs away.

And I never build walls, I like to defend my realm with units. Not with stationary defenses. And I don't like Autocracy. ;) I can perfectly understand, why you want to build walls but I just cannot spare any prooduction capacity at that time.

Compare that to Korea: they offer the same science boost but two insanely powerful UUs that come at the right time to start your Domination.
 
Let me put it this way. Remove their UU and UB and they would still be a top tier civ. The UA is just that good.
 
I'll be perfectly honest: the extra city defence (in the form of an archer replacement + wall replacement) is most likely the last thing one would consider when deciding whether or not to play Babylon - the science (Great Scientist) boost simply outshines and eclipses everything else.

How often are you going to even build walls...? You're going to be killing Barbarians perfectly fine with a fortified normal archer anyway, a stronger one just means you get to pew-pew with the same effect unless you're going to war with another civ in the early classical era.

I agree with this. Early defense is one of the least important military aspects IMO. And I know some people will think that is an extremely reckless and asinine thing to say. But how often are people going to attack you from the very beginning? And even so, I consider archers to be obsolete from the near get-go, with the exception of barbs.

The science bonus is arguable. I definitely believe that science is the most important aspect of the game (better units, first dibs on wonders, etc), but I don't know if Babylon's great scientist bonus contributes that greatly to science.
 
1. Via beeline to Writting they get an academy between turns 18 & 22 (standard speed / standard map) exact number depending upon raw food production.
As mentioned above it will instantly more than double science production and this will further increase with NC.

2. Once you get Universities built, they produce GS at a faster rate.
For early GS turned into an Academy, the UA's bonus is the science produced between that point and when you'd have naturally gotten a GS.
For GS that are instead saved for late game bulbing, being produced earlier doesn't matter, however if this combines to produce 1 more GS than you wouldn't have gotten, this is an 8 turn savings.
In addition a possible indirect impact due to less worry about accidentally producing an unwanted great person type.

3. Bowmen with archery are almost as good as Composites + Walls of Babylon are almost as good as someone else putting up a Castle.
Wht this really does is make you almost immune to early attacks from the AI. A single Bowmen inside a new city with Walls of Babylon will hold AI off for quite a long time.
 
I somehow don't like Babylon. They are so tailored for a SV and I think they do worse than Korea in every other aspect. There Bowmen... Not my cup of tea. They come too early for my style of play and I am usually not ready for a rush t that time. Against Barbarians, Bowmen are just a "win more" unit because an Archer can do exactly the same. And after that, Composites are only two techs away.

And I never build walls, I like to defend my realm with units. Not with stationary defenses. And I don't like Autocracy. ;) I can perfectly understand, why you want to build walls but I just cannot spare any prooduction capacity at that time.

Compare that to Korea: they offer the same science boost but two insanely powerful UUs that come at the right time to start your Domination.

About Korea...I've tried them and don't know what to think about their units. I love the H'wacha and how it can take out melee units like nothing. But think how disadvantaged they are compared to the trebuchet they replace in taking cities.

Same with the turtle ship...extremely powerful unit, but can't enter deep water. You're not going to host the first world congress, or find other lands to settle first (unless you reach Navigation before others reach Astronomy).

On one hand, I think the Korean special units are awesome, but they each have one fatal flaw IMO.

And the Korean UA almost becomes obsolete if you cant beat people to wonders.
 
And the Korean UA almost becomes obsolete if you cant beat people to wonders.

I wouldn't go that far:

1. Specialists of ALL types produce +2 science each. (Further modified by all buildings & national wonders boosting cities science percentage bonuses)

2. The Bonus counts for even the regular science buildings & science national wonders in the capital. Now with the latest patch, you do have to ensure you won't bump up against the overflow limit.
 
I wouldn't go that far:

1. Specialists of ALL types produce +2 science each. (Further modified by all buildings & national wonders boosting cities science percentage bonuses)

2. The Bonus counts for even the regular science buildings & science national wonders in the capital. Now with the latest patch, you do have to ensure you won't bump up against the overflow limit.

That's true. I still acknowledge that their UA is pretty awesome, but the wonder science bonus thing is overrated IMO. If you're playing on Prince, where you can wonderhog pretty easily, then you can just sit back and build wonders and watch your science shoot through the roof.

But if you're playing on the harder difficulties where you can't do that, that special ability is pretty limited.

A couple of questions though,

1) What is the "latest patch" and what is the "overflow limit"?

2) I see that you're a mod...I'm brand new here, so could you please tell me how I can create a signature for my posts?

Thanks for the help
 
About Korea...I've tried them and don't know what to think about their units. I love the H'wacha and how it can take out melee units like nothing. But think how disadvantaged they are compared to the trebuchet they replace in taking cities.

Same with the turtle ship...extremely powerful unit, but can't enter deep water. You're not going to host the first world congress, or find other lands to settle first (unless you reach Navigation before others reach Astronomy).

On one hand, I think the Korean special units are awesome, but they each have one fatal flaw IMO.

And the Korean UA almost becomes obsolete if you cant beat people to wonders.


Sure, the wonder bonus is not really good but you get a boost for Libraries and other buildings, too. And the +2 for every specialist is absolutely amazing the whole game.

Regarding the units: in my oppiniom, they are awesome. Why? Well first of, it's a siege unit + a ship. Those two military lines become really strong after the medieval times, so every upgrade you get on them helps you a lot (!) with Artillery, Mobile Artillery and Destroyers / Missile Cruisers. Starting your conquest with 4-5 Artilleries that already got Logistics is an instant free win.

The Hwiatcha is superior in killing units as soon as you get them. They are a bit off the usual teching line, but as soon as you get them, you are more or less untouchable. Just start a war with someone and use their units as training ballons. I prefer a Hwiatcha to any Bowmen sitting in a city with Babylon Walls by far. Do you really use Trebuchets?

The turtle ship replaces the Caravel, that's not the best deal. But if you want to go on a Domination trip, it's not the best idea to meet everyone soon anyways. And the ship itself is a monster. ~4 are enough to capture an average coastal city on their own. You are only second to Ships of the Line I guess. But, as England does not get the neat science bonus, you should get to Astronomy first anyways.

Overall, Koreas units gets you a fantastic base to go for Domination after the first land grabs have settled. Babylons Bowmen and Walls are only worth it for the first turns.
 
Sure, the wonder bonus is not really good but you get a boost for Libraries and other buildings, too. And the +2 for every specialist is absolutely amazing the whole game.

Regarding the units: in my oppiniom, they are awesome. Why? Well first of, it's a siege unit + a ship. Those two military lines become really strong after the medieval times, so every upgrade you get on them helps you a lot (!) with Artillery, Mobile Artillery and Destroyers / Missile Cruisers. Starting your conquest with 4-5 Artilleries that already got Logistics is an instant free win.

The Hwiatcha is superior in killing units as soon as you get them. They are a bit off the usual teching line, but as soon as you get them, you are more or less untouchable. Just start a war with someone and use their units as training ballons. I prefer a Hwiatcha to any Bowmen sitting in a city with Babylon Walls by far. Do you really use Trebuchets?

The turtle ship replaces the Caravel, that's not the best deal. But if you want to go on a Domination trip, it's not the best idea to meet everyone soon anyways. And the ship itself is a monster. ~4 are enough to capture an average coastal city on their own. You are only second to Ships of the Line I guess. But, as England does not get the neat science bonus, you should get to Astronomy first anyways.

Overall, Koreas units gets you a fantastic base to go for Domination after the first land grabs have settled. Babylons Bowmen and Walls are only worth it for the first turns.

Well first of all, I do use trebuchets and siege units in general to take cities. I don't see why anyone wouldn't use them. And I do think that the turtle ship is even stronger than England's ship of the line. Of course the fatal flaw is that it can't enter deep water. But I do agree that the UU and UB for Babylon are not that big of a deal.
 
Well first of all, I do use trebuchets and siege units in general to take cities. I don't see why anyone wouldn't use them. And I do think that the turtle ship is even stronger than England's ship of the line. Of course the fatal flaw is that it can't enter deep water. But I do agree that the UU and UB for Babylon are not that big of a deal.

The turtle ship really is strong. I had privateers having trouble trying to take turtle ships down. It really is weird that turtle ships could take down privateers but at least they can't enter deep oceans.
 
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