RFC: a few thoughts on certain civs and starting positions

Maybe put the settler where they historically started and code the AI to want to put the settler where their capital should be, and make it a little better spot so human players would want to settle there too?
 
I agree with the overwhelming American cultural diffusion but when the American Empire decline, will we still have a lifestyle resembling of the Americans?
I don't think so.

BTW I live in Turkiye, which is under 'heavy' influence of American culture (well also European culture but that was more dominant in the last century.)

There are many American style malls opening in urban centers, new generation enjoying U.S. originated musicians and pop\rock\r&b-stars, US style nutrition habits, clothing and etc...

However,

Turkiye is one of the countries possesing highest level of anti-American sentiment. This is not meaning average Mehmet hates average John but majority of our society disapprove worldwide American policies and especially policies regarding Middle-East.

So how do we need to evaluate such a position from a cultural hegemony perpective?
 
Help! I was playing as the aztecs and though the americans show up, I never get the option to flip to them. what gives
 
There seems to be some kind of mix up here.

People seem to be confusing culture, politics, and economics =S

erm yeah sorrry this post has no revelvance just annoyed me that the majority of it has nothing to do with starting positions.......

kinda hippocritical i know, i think we should accept however that especially musicaly America does have a very dominant culture, most modern types of music are based on music of american origin.

Away from all that this is an amazing mod, would there be any chance of adding some more African, and south american civs like later on in the game, when all the colonies start to get their independence?
 
LOL i do that sometimes! (when i'm playing for fun) and it works EVERY single time! but of course taking up all those cities brings up a financial burden (and less stability) but its still fun to do! heck i do that with the persians make a huge persian empire, then switch to the arabs and take up everything!
Also you can't swith civ's more than once;)
 
Why does China's capital start in Beijing when it orginally started on the Yellow River with the Shang Dynasty (capital was Anyang)?

First Dynasty was the Hisa Dynasty in Yanshi, Shang was the second. And Xian or Louyang were ancient capitals for China for longer then any other city.

What of food? Pizza and pasta are italian contributions. Hamburgers and Hot dogs from Germany (though, fair enough, both have been modified by Americans to their credit). There are very few purely American culinary contributions.

the italian's stole that form China ;)

Literature? Does the American contribution really outweigh that of Shakespeare, Homer and Cervantes (to name a very very very few)?

Twain, Meville, Stienback, Hemmingway

i would put the American authors since the founding of the US up against any European Author form the same time period. The name you quote dead a few centuries even before the US came into existance and in Homer's case, a thousand or 2. In the same time period since the founding of the US it has produce as many greats in literature as the rest of europe combine.
 
Twain, Meville, Stienback, Hemmingway

i would put the American authors since the founding of the US up against any European Author form the same time period. The name you quote dead a few centuries even before the US came into existance and in Homer's case, a thousand or 2. In the same time period since the founding of the US it has produce as many greats in literature as the rest of europe combine.

The US is a young nation but they keep it rollin'. In their 230ish years of existence they pretty much outrunned us decent Europeans;)
But we'll be lurking around the corner and in your weakest moment...:scan:
 
@Xellas
Though you are correct the technically the Xia Dynasty (Hsia) is the first, except it is more a mythical kingdom than that of real chinese dynasty. Also While it may be true that was after 8000 BC which is where the RFC Mod starts for china
 
@Xellas
Though you are correct the technically the Xia Dynasty (Hsia) is the first, except it is more a mythical kingdom than that of real chinese dynasty. Also While it may be true that was after 8000 BC which is where the RFC Mod starts for china

they have found bronze age city ruins where chinese historical text have cited locations of Xia cities.

eeeeeeeeh?

marco polo and the green onion bread.
 
@Xellos
While they may have been written texts founded, and so called 'cities' discovered, it is highly unlikely that they were founded by a centralized buerracray such as a dynasty. Cities in the middle east such as catal huyuk in turkey and Jericho were just city states with no centralized beuracracies'

believe when I say this, i'm currently taking a AP World History class and we have gone over teh Xia dynasty question
 
@Xellos
While they may have been written texts founded, and so called 'cities' discovered, it is highly unlikely that they were founded by a centralized buerracray such as a dynasty. Cities in the middle east such as catal huyuk in turkey and Jericho were just city states with no centralized beuracracies'

believe when I say this, i'm currently taking a AP World History class and we have gone over teh Xia dynasty question

all Chinese dynasty before the Chin dynasty were just a collection city-states. With one city-state being the first among equals. As for as the centralize bueracracy, that didn't come around till again Chin Dynasty and further along by the Han dynasty.
 
Right well the I think in response to the first post that you are not considering that if you think america has a cultural victory today what about great Britain when it controled the majority of land on 2 continents and one sub continent? It definetly controled more of the world than america and as its language has spread through out the world i think we can safely assume that its culture is widely spread. now you also argued that america had at leats two cities with legendary culture well the british empire can also equal that one bwing london and one being Dehli im sure a good case for bombay could also be argued
 
Japanese Culture REALLY dominates in the US. How many Otakus do I meet every single day...? X_X

...Oh crap, did I just do that? THE CITIZENS OF KANSAS CITY RIGHTFULLY WISH TO JOIN THE JAPANESE EMPIRE...!
 
America is a cultural centre, absolutely and New York has achieved legendary status...

But that's just right now. People are looking at this from a very short term perspective. America has only been a cultural centre since the end of the war. (Perhaps since the 30s when so many artists had to leave Europe).

For example, it is English sports, football, cricket, and rugby, which dominate the world's stage. Not to mention Scottish golf. And tennis and the modern Olympics from France. Can skateboarding and basketball really compare to those?

English is the world's lingua franca.

The world's premiere broadcasting service? CNN? CBS? No, it's the BBC.

And that's just England's contribution.

What of food? Pizza and pasta are italian contributions. Hamburgers and Hot dogs from Germany (though, fair enough, both have been modified by Americans to their credit). There are very few purely American culinary contributions.

Hollywood films make the most money, to be sure, but ask a true movie buff where the artistic center of cinema is. The answer will more often than not be condensible to Europe.

Literature? Does the American contribution really outweigh that of Shakespeare, Homer and Cervantes (to name a very very very few)?

As for musicals, musicals were invented by the Greeks, not Americans. Americans just figured out how to sell them. (Another argument for giving Americans extra corporate bonuses rather than cultural ones).

And what of museums? America has great ones to be sure, but America's is in no way dominant. The Smithsonian is great, but is it in any way better than the Louvre, the British museum, or the Hermitage?

Americans are great at selling things (though again, that is an English tradition that they tweaked). Most of their cultural 'achievements' are really an extension of that.

Oh and BTW, none of those things I mentioned comes out of LA. When compared to London or Paris or ancient Athens, Rome, or Alexandria, New York holds its own. LA doesn't even belong in the same breath.

This isn't intended to pick a fight. It's just intended to give a worldview, which vicious as it sounds, many, if not most, Americans lack. (America being a large and isolated country, it probably couldn't be otherwise in all fairness).

This is ridiculous. I have lived for more than a year in 4 different countries on 3 different continents, visited more than 30 countries on 5 different continents. Every place I go I interact and work with locals, I intentionally avoid ex-pat bubbles. I don't lack worldview at all, but I know plenty of Europeans who do. Way to generalize.

You're right, America has only been a cultural center recently. But they have achieved greater cultural dominance than any civilization prior in a shorter period of time. That's the whole point. In the context of the scenario... it is impossible for America to win a cultural victory. Even though in reality they have come closer than any other civilization has, as I explained before. No other culture has been as dominant and pervasive all over the world. Not the Greeks, the Romans, the Chinese, the Indians, the Arabs, the Spanish, the French, the British... none of them. I'm NOT saying that these cultures are inferior... just that they have not been as dominant and omnipresent, either today, during their heydey, or as a sum total. I'm not looking at it with a short-term perspective. I'm adding up the total influence each of these civs has had on global culture.

Sports... well you must accept the definition I gave of culture earlier if you even consider this as qualifying as culture. Yes, soccer is the most popular sport in the world. Cricket comes in number 2 in terms of numbers... but only because there are so many people in India. Basketball is played all over the world. Much moreso than cricket. Baseball is enormously popular in Japan, all over Latin America, and in many other places. I'm not claiming American dominance in this area, but... I think they are at least 2nd after the British. When was 2nd place worthy of one star?

English is the international language, yes. Why? America. If not for the USA English would have long ago been eclipsed by German, Russian, or Spanish. If it hadn't been, then it would rapidly be losing against Chinese or Hindi right now. This is just a plain fact of history. I teach English all over the world. I should know why students want to learn English. It's not so that they can do business with New Zealand, or because they want to watch British films, or because they hope to emigrate to or study in Jamaica. The large majority of them wish to learn American English over British English or any other variety, and specifically say so.

The world's premiere broadcasting service is the BBC? Wow, that's not biased... well, again, I have lived all over the world. I can absolutely guarantee you that there is FAR more American television programming seen around the world than there is British. Between the BBC and CNN there is really little distinction made by those outside of Europe and North America. They are about equally well known. Still, my basic point stands... even if the USA is #2 (and they so clearly are NOT. American television DOMINATES TOTALLY), does that really warrant a one star rating?

Food.. point taken about few things being purely American. but... you want pure European food? That means bread and water, mostly. Tomatoes used in Italian pasta? Those came from the Americas. Hot peppers used in cuisines around the world from Asia to Africa? Those came from the Americas. Chocolate? Potatoes? Squash? All American... no country's cuisine is "pure." This is a naive idea. They all have components taken from other places and other cultures.
So how does American food dominate? You can get a McDonald's hamburger, a Coca Cola or Pepsi brand soft drink, or a Starbuck's frappacino in virtually every country in the world. They are popular and wildly successful the world over, as much as some people like to criticize them. You want bangers and mash in Korea, Saudi Arabia, or Mexico? You're probably SOL... Again I'm not saying American food is necessarily superior... it's just totally omnipresent. Almost everywhere in the world, in terms of popularity, what comes right after local cuisine? American. Italian is up there, as is Chinese. But if America isn't #1, it's definitely top 5. Again... deserving of one star? Clearly not.

Ask a true movie buff where the cultural center of film is and they'll say Europe? Jesus you people are soooo stuck on yourselves. You are absolutely wrong. Once again, Americans ABSOLUTELY DOMINATE the culture of film and have since the invention of moving pictures. American movies make the most money because they are enjoyed the world over by people from every culture and country. and for every big, dumb, popcorn film you name I can name one that is internationally recognized as a brilliant piece of art. There is no contest here. None.

Literature... America probably loses this one. But still they have made some enormous contributions and deserve more than one star, even in this, perhaps their single greatest weak spot of those you've listed. Emerson, Hawthorne, Whitman, Twain, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Updike, Lewis, Eliot, Faulkner, Steinbeck, Poe, Asimov... not exactly hacks. Personally I'm partial to Orson Scott Card and Chuck Palahniuk... also American. They get way more than one star in this category, even if they don't dominate as much as they do in other areas.

Musicals.. which are relevant today? Resentment doesn't equal a strong argument. If something is making money that means it is popular and widely-liked and widely known which gives credence to my argument. Yes London theater is great but many of the musicals you can see there were written in the United States. I'm not going to argue that Broadway has made a bigger impact on the world than the operas of Mozart or Wagner, or the tragedies of the ancient Greeks... they haven't... mostly because most people don't really care about musicals... but again their contribution is not equal to one star.

Museums... the Louvre is my personal favorite. The French really were excellent thieves. :) The museums in Britain are also wonderful. In terms of classical art and anthropology nothing touches the museums of old Europe. Though the Smithsonian and the MET are no slouches... again.. not worthy of one star. And... if you want to see a museum of modern art, aviation technology, or recent cultural history there's no place better you can go than the USA.

It's a popular criticism of Europeans, bitter at their own increasing irrelevance in the waning years of their empires, to accuse Americans to only be good at selling things. If people didn't want to watch American movies, no amount of advertising would convince people to go see them. Sour grapes, guys... and if there is some credence to the argument that American culture is an extension of capitalism... well... they've done a fantastic job of spreading *that* aspect of their culture all over the world, too. It's just one more way out of many in which American culture permeates and touches everything, imitated over and over. Americans did not invent capitalism, but they did spread it everywhere.

You didn't even mention music. Everybody listens to American music. Spanish, Hindi, Arabic, Korean and Chinese music is very popular... in their particular markets... but American music dominates everything and is popular the world over, imitated everywhere. Rock and Roll, Rap, Hip Hop, Jazz, Blues, Country... and all the many different sub genres of each... all American. Not that other countries haven't made contributions... but without American music there would have never been The Beatles. Granted without Bach or Beethoven it's hard to imagine what musical tradition would have taken hold in America if any had at all... but what impact did each of these musicians and musical traditions have in their time? and today? Which has completely dominated culture on a global scale? (the likes of which you might say constitutes a "cultural victory")

Then of course there is style, technological innovations which have changed our lives and therefore our global culture (including the internet), political philosophy, gaming, pornography... etc etc etc etc

Point is... which I made clearly before... the Americans should be the MOST likely Civ in the game to win a cultural victory. Not the LEAST. :p This part of the scenario is as unrealistic as their military superiority that they start the game with.

Sorry for the late reply.
 
Did you check their Unique Power ? They will take advantage from foreign culture, so what you described is not really a problem for the Turks.



Excuse me ? We can think in 2 ways, in game terms and in real world terms. In both cases yours is a very strange opinion. In game terms NY and LA technically did not have time to reach Legendary status. Also the cultural value of their wonders is low compared to the ancient ones. In real world terms, much people outside America would not be sure wether NY or LA is on the Pacific or Atlantic coast of America, and which "wonders" belong to which, if any. On the other hand, pretty much everyone -at least in Europe- know where does the Pope sit, where are the Pyramids, the Colosseum, the Louvre and so on.
Your vision is wrong because your own culture makes you think that it is influencial. The american culture is based on prejudices and popular thoughts, advertised by the movies from Hollywood and TV shows. For example, most films from Hollywood that try to describe foreign cultures (italian, russian, french, etc) have generally two effects on the audience from those regions, they are either :lol: or :mad: , depending on the charachter of a person and how seriously they take a movie. Most films from Hollywood show how the USA is at the center of the world, everyone loves its ideals and would want to move to America and pursue the "American dream". Undubtly the american culture is spreading fast outside its borders (wether ot not this is good and how it is happening is another matter :p), but this still doesn't make the culture INSIDE the USA even slightly comparable to the European or Oriental one. In fact, only a little percentage of the american culture is "native" (I am of course not speaking of the native american indian culture), the rest is a heritage from Europe mostly, starting from the language, which is one of the main traits of a culture. As we all know now the american english language is evolving, but would you dare saying it is more influencial than british english ? Hardly....



This is actually the reality. Like I said your vision is offuscated by your own culture, truth is that most people at least where I live think of americans that they think too high of themselves, and that they will never reach the cultural levels in Europe, and to some extremes that the american culture is even a threat to the european one (see Mc Dondald's, like someone already said).



Yep, I have reported this in the thread about the first MP game for RFC. In that version when cities flip all buildings are lost, including Wonders. I am unsure if the same happens in the regular, SP scenario.

About the Turks... yeah.. that power does make a difference. I still think my idea makes more sense... but whatever...

Your arguments about American culture don't really hold water. People wonder what coast New York is on? Maybe. Do you think they know which coast of Italy Rome is on? I do... I know world geography backward and forward... but I actually have real world experience with what people around the world know regarding other cultures. My perspective definitely is NOT one of living in America my whole life and being ignorant of the outside world. I have spent large amounts of time all over Europe and Asia and Africa. I've lectured at universities in Korea and Saudi Arabia. If I asked my students where the Louvre is... most of them would not know. If I asked them where the Statue of Liberty or Hollywood is... almost all of them would know. Maybe YOU are guilty of what you accuse me of being guilty of... namely... having a perspective that is limited by your experience. You admit that you are only speaking for the people of Europe in terms of what landmarks they might recognize... you do realize that Europe is not the whole world, right?

Do you really think American movies only get things wrong about other cultures? :p They get things wrong about American culture routinely... it's just a movie. Most adults know this. And it's not like it's something new or unique to America. Do you really think Hamlet was an accurate depiction of Danish culture and politics?

Your argument about American culture not being native does not hold water, and I already explained why earlier. No culture has been created independently. Every culture is built on what came before it. Therefore it is utter fallacy to attempt to ignore or negate cultural achievement which can be in any way linked to some precedent... if you did that... then it negates every cultural achievement in history. Ever. Even if we did not have the technology of writing to record exactly how... I'm sure even the Sumerians were borrowing some of their ideas from people that came before.
 
Economical dominance leads to cultural influence. Always has, always will.

Examples:

Great Britain's economical dominance over Europe and the world in the 19th century led to British culture being emulated across the world and in parts of Europe.

Greece's economical dominance over the eastern Roman Empire led to Greek culture being the thing to emulate in that area, rather than Latin culture.

Exactly right, and I agree with your previous post, too, to some degree. (I also disagree to another degree. I mean... World War 2 had little to do with the development of American music.)

Americans get bashed unfairly for having culture tied to economics by people that are either a) just biased against Americans and looking for some way to bash them, or b) ignorant of the importance that these same factors played in history.

Look at the amazing works of art produced during the Renaissance, for example. Most of the time these were created on commission paid for by the church. The Sistine Chapel cieling is CORPORATE ART. Though it may have more artistic merit than a McDonald's advertising jingle... the fact of the matter is they were created in much the same way. Artists commissioned by those with money for a specific purpose. It doesn't mean the Sistine Chapel is not a work of art. The works of creative people do not automatically lose value just because someone paid for it, or someone sold it, or it was created for some purpose other than pure artistic expression.
 
I agree with the overwhelming American cultural diffusion but when the American Empire decline, will we still have a lifestyle resembling of the Americans?
I don't think so.

BTW I live in Turkiye, which is under 'heavy' influence of American culture (well also European culture but that was more dominant in the last century.)

There are many American style malls opening in urban centers, new generation enjoying U.S. originated musicians and pop\rock\r&b-stars, US style nutrition habits, clothing and etc...

However,

Turkiye is one of the countries possesing highest level of anti-American sentiment. This is not meaning average Mehmet hates average John but majority of our society disapprove worldwide American policies and especially policies regarding Middle-East.

So how do we need to evaluate such a position from a cultural hegemony perpective?

I think that long after America declines... the world will still be speaking English, people will still increasingly use the internet, music in the traditions of rock and roll and hip hop will continue being produced and expounded upon, American films will continue to be imitated by other filmmakers, and there will still be many who once in a while fancy a hamburger or a soft drink. Yes, the mark left will be huge, and won't just go away.
And then when the next superpower rises... and the whole world is eager to criticize them... and people from that civilization start to seek validation for their own contributions to civilization...... they'll have to put up with bitter jerks in various forums claiming that their culture is not original... they just copied everything from the Americans.
 
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