Ronnie1
Deity
Sorry, no save at the end of T222.
SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
bcool
Deity
Can you move the autosave the turn you settled the city to another location and email it to me so it doesn't get written over. I would like to look at it after the game is over. Thanks.
Ronnie1
Deity
I have it saved!
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Sorry to be absent without leave so long ...
RL has been a mess since mid April, and it's not done with me yet, so you can safely assume I'm a skip until you hear otherwise.
dV
RL has been a mess since mid April, and it's not done with me yet, so you can safely assume I'm a skip until you hear otherwise.
dV
adrianj
Deity
I hate to be a spoilsport, but trading for Theology would ruin our bulbing plans.
Theology opens up Paper.
I would suggest not trading for Theology until we have Astro, Engineering and Gunpowder in the bag. Once we are shooting for Chemistry it would be fine, since Chemistry is higher priority than Paper.
The same can be said for Civil Service.
This assumes we aren't considering bulbing Military Science. Which I think is a bad idea anyway, as that would delay Civil Service->Nationalism by too much.
Theology opens up Paper.
I would suggest not trading for Theology until we have Astro, Engineering and Gunpowder in the bag. Once we are shooting for Chemistry it would be fine, since Chemistry is higher priority than Paper.
The same can be said for Civil Service.
This assumes we aren't considering bulbing Military Science. Which I think is a bad idea anyway, as that would delay Civil Service->Nationalism by too much.
bcool
Deity
updated PPP, will take out trade for theology, thanks aj!
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10528920&postcount=1876
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10528920&postcount=1876
mabraham
Deity
Oooh, good catch.
bcool
Deity
we are not going to steal optics on any decent time frame. I would estimate 8 turns minimum and that is with using the slider. Maybe 13 turns without the slider. Darn you Willem, take our gift!!!
We either trade guilds to him for it plus some gold, or we tech it ourselves.
We either trade guilds to him for it plus some gold, or we tech it ourselves.
mabraham
Deity
I estimated a while back that he'd take about 20 turns to tech Astronomy if he started.
Knights don't bother me at all. WvO doesn't have iron or horses. Cathy doesn't have horses. Izzy has neither. Rag has both, but we can take down his iron on the opening turn. We have plans for two pikes just so we don't get caught with our pants down, but muskets are fairly survivable against knights.
A single 2800
bulb reduces the Paper-Edu-Lib path to only 500 less than straight Steel. I'm not very interested in a plan that compromises the start of drafting (by slow-teching Gunpowder for about 10 turns) in order to save a couple of turns getting cannons. We can avoid needing cannons until after we've taken out Ragnar if we want to - but I'd prefer to hit WvO next to stop his galleons becoming a serious city-spamming force. Frigates and espionage avoid us needing overwhelming siege support.
bcool
Deity
If you read my PPP I've basically already given up on my plan unless Willem somehow shows he can tech it in 12 turns.
but you've convinced me to give it up entirely.
but you've convinced me to give it up entirely.
mabraham
Deity
I don't like spending time teching Gunpowder because it delays the start of drafting by about 10 turns, as discussed.
You've now just said a steal of Optics is off the cards. So I think option 4 boils down to teching Guilds, 0% on CS, trading Eng for cash, trading Guilds for Optics+cash, 2 bulbs on Astro, bulb on Gunpowder (finish Gunpowder), bulb on Chemistry. Then we have about 10 turns to finish most of CS+Nat when the next (5th) GPerson arrives. He GAges and we finish Chemistry and start Steel (20ish turns), juggling GH and CC to produce two more different GPeople soon for another GAge.
Yeah, but we don't really care if she gets optics... caravels are not going to hurt our navy, and she's sure to have Optics herself by the time we target her.
Sure.
I recall you did this temporary switch to Slavery in your test game. I'm not convinced. Assuming Caste and Chemistry, our grassland workshops are tiles that convert 1
into 4
(plains workshops convert 2 into 5). Right now they're converting 1 into 2, going up to 3 next turn. Assuming drafting muskets, we convert 1 into about 4 on a musket. We have five galleys to become galleons, and plans to build a couple more in the short term. We have plans to build some siege units in the short term. Why do we want to cater to using a game mechanism that converts 1 into about 1, by avoiding using our more efficient tiles in the meantime? I don't think the short-term boost is worth it, because it costs us our longer-term, and we will need that longer term to generate a pile of units for dealing with Cathy. We also lose access to Caste for running many specialists during the GAge to aim at Steel and GPersons for a second GAge.The only population I'd actually want to 3-whip (or so) for a treb is from cities that have population in excess of 6, that are still working all their hammers tiles while being able to regrow in 15 turns for more drafting. I think the only city that will definitely be in that condition is SM. BF, PC and FH can probably accommodate that. FC and GH maybe. Maybe some of our new high-seafood cities. And I'd not want to give up working any Gworkshops, ever. They're too good.
Next turn, as you note below, SR will grow and should work both its workshops instead of the coast. Then it produces 10
/turn and can have built the trebuchet it otherwise might have been able to afford to whip in 15-20 turns' time.I think the rate-limiting factor for finishing the game is hammers on trebs/cannons and boats. The necessary tech will come, but when it gets here we have to have boats to put muskets on and trebs & frigates to send with them. Hypothetically, if we could get all the tech apart from Chemistry right now from the Civ fairies, we'd have to switch to Slavery to get out some boats to put the muskets on and some trebs to go with them. However, we have about 15 turns to start getting organized, and we can do a lot of that.
Where are we going to send our troops from the home islands? To marshal in BC's Mistake to march on Amsterdam with spies in support? We'll need another spy (at least)
There's a philosophical point here - once we lose the Colossus, we'll probably have better access to hammers than to gold, so we do want units to convert on queues, rather than pay gold to convert them later.
I don't think we want new
Sure. Note that we lack the food to work all three workshops sustainably, so at size 6 we will run crabs, two workshops and two coasts, and the last person will alternate coast and workshop. On average, that allows us to convert 6
/turn into 5+5+2.5:hammers/turn, and not draft it which is not great. Alternatively, we could draft it, then work coasts for 5 turns per cycle to re-grow, then use the workshops for the rest of the cycle for more like 17/turn net. Repeat. Either seems better than over-growing to get out a single 3-whip of a unit.Sure. Note that York will finish its FP before the GT, and should give the cows tile to London then. Note there's a turn on a workshop SE of London.
There's a tile E of Hastings with one turn on a workshop already.
If York plans to give away its tiles to London and Canterbury, perhaps it can spend its time best building some workboats for SL and Hittite?
OK. Making sure that Hastings has all its Gworkshops is a priority. Probably one worker should stay and start working on Pworkshops.
Or granary if York helps with WB.
Is a fort faster than chop-plantation?
OK
So that we can get galleons into Hastings to head south? I'd rather use three turns on a road and board the galleon there. Hastings cannot build boats itself.
Or just forget about Goth. It was a suggestion for temporising with, perhaps a base for upgrading units, but the city is worthless until we build it at least one workboat. Maybe take it on the way out from conquering Joao. Edit: Our CR3 swords are so good that we can afford to take it and raze it for the gold. We'll have a few turns to heal up on boats on the way to the DOW, and a few more under the stack while the cats bomb.
Also, I think your screenshot is cheating with the ocean SW of PC. You can still get to the DOW in time, though. Otherwise, the DOW plan is fine. There's some merit in landing east of Lisbon (units coming out of a city can't attack our stack that turn), but it's probably not worth any delay landing the second round of troops.
If Izzy and Joao haven't found each other, I don't think we're likely to find her from where we are. Prefer protection.
mabraham
Deity
If WvO techs CS next, what do we do about that?
bcool
Deity
comments in blue.
I don't like spending time teching Gunpowder because it delays the start of drafting by about 10 turns, as discussed.
You've now just said a steal of Optics is off the cards. So I think option 4 boils down to teching Guilds, 0% on CS, trading Eng for cash, trading Guilds for Optics+cash, 2 bulbs on Astro, bulb on Gunpowder (finish Gunpowder), bulb on Chemistry. Then we have about 10 turns to finish most of CS+Nat when the next (5th) GPerson arrives. He GAges and we finish Chemistry and start Steel (20ish turns), juggling GH and CC to produce two more different GPeople soon for another GAge.
Okay I agree.
Yeah, but we don't really care if she gets optics... caravels are not going to hurt our navy, and she's sure to have Optics herself by the time we target her.
I'm okay with the trade for her gold, it might even get us out of worst enemy status.
I recall you did this temporary switch to Slavery in your test game. I'm not convinced. Assuming Caste and Chemistry, our grassland workshops are tiles that convert 1
The only population I'd actually want to 3-whip (or so) for a treb is from cities that have population in excess of 6, that are still working all their hammers tiles while being able to regrow in 15 turns for more drafting. I think the only city that will definitely be in that condition is SM. BF, PC and FH can probably accommodate that. FC and GH maybe. Maybe some of our new high-seafood cities. And I'd not want to give up working any Gworkshops, ever. They're too good.
I will compromise, I will try to grow SM, BF, PC and FH a little bit more than the others, and we can look at the slavery switch in more detail as it comes closer.
Next turn, as you note below, SR will grow and should work both its workshops instead of the coast. Then it produces 10
Okay
I think the rate-limiting factor for finishing the game is hammers on trebs/cannons and boats. The necessary tech will come, but when it gets here we have to have boats to put muskets on and trebs & frigates to send with them. Hypothetically, if we could get all the tech apart from Chemistry right now from the Civ fairies, we'd have to switch to Slavery to get out some boats to put the muskets on and some trebs to go with them. However, we have about 15 turns to start getting organized, and we can do a lot of that.
slavery converts food to hammers at about 1 to 2 with a granary, but its biggest advantage is the instantaneous production of units. Getting the stacks organized where we want them when we want them is very much accelerated with whipping.
Where are we going to send our troops from the home islands? To marshal in BC's Mistake to march on Amsterdam with spies in support? We'll need another spy (at least)
I'll look into making another spy
There's a philosophical point here - once we lose the Colossus, we'll probably have better access to hammers than to gold, so we do want units to convert on queues, rather than pay gold to convert them later.
Having them convert will delay their production too. It works well with slavery. If we don't plan to use a slavery dip, then maybe it is better to produce them since that happens nearly instantaneously at a larger cost to our research probably than whipping.
I don't think we want new trebs. It does seem about the right time to be working marble.
Really you don't want new trebs? What do you want instead? MC has a barracks, I would assume we should produce land units instead.
Sure. Note that we lack the food to work all three workshops sustainably, so at size 6 we will run crabs, two workshops and two coasts, and the last person will alternate coast and workshop. On average, that allows us to convert 6
Won't overgrow FC then, but I won't build its 3rd workshop since I would rather move the worker to somewhere where his work will be fully appreciated
Sure. Note that York will finish its FP before the GT, and should give the cows tile to London then. Note there's a turn on a workshop SE of London.
Noted I will give the cows to London after the FP is built, I've noted the 1 turn on the workshop but I think building the plains workshop on the plains forest is better right now.
There's a tile E of Hastings with one turn on a workshop already.
Ok, I'll try to add to it if the movement works out.
If York plans to give away its tiles to London and Canterbury, perhaps it can spend its time best building some workboats for SL and Hittite?
I was thinking this was going to be significantly slower since there is travel time as well, but I'll take a look at it and will build the workboats in York after the FP if it does work out better for SL.
With Cathy being creative it will be quite a while before we get that clams from her. It might be better to just build a lighthouse with that pop working a grass forest hill rather than run an artist...
OK. Making sure that Hastings has all its Gworkshops is a priority. Probably one worker should stay and start working on Pworkshops.
I think it is better to improve tiles nearby that a city can immediately use if those workers will still be around to finish the Gworkshops for hastings in time for its use. I will juggle the workers as necessary to get those Gworkshops up as quickly as I can, but I will take opportunities to improve tiles that are immediately needed elsewhere. Hastings has those GHine mines that it can work in a pinch. but I will avoid that if at all possible.
Or granary if York helps with WB.
right ok will look at it.
Is a fort faster than chop-plantation?
no the chop is 5 turns, the plantation is 8 turns. The fort is 15 turns.
So that we can get galleons into Hastings to head south? I'd rather use three turns on a road and board the galleon there. Hastings cannot build boats itself.
Okay just thought galley chaining through English lands might have made sense. Especially since Hastings will likely be building trebs for us.
Or just forget about Goth. It was a suggestion for temporising with, perhaps a base for upgrading units, but the city is worthless until we build it at least one workboat. Maybe take it on the way out from conquering Joao. Edit: Our CR3 swords are so good that we can afford to take it and raze it for the gold. We'll have a few turns to heal up on boats on the way to the DOW, and a few more under the stack while the cats bomb.
I will destroy it with the crIII swords that have 8xp so they will get some xp from it.
Also, I think your screenshot is cheating with the ocean SW of PC. You can still get to the DOW in time, though. Otherwise, the DOW plan is fine. There's some merit in landing east of Lisbon (units coming out of a city can't attack our stack that turn), but it's probably not worth any delay landing the second round of troops.
I'll take a closer look at the galley movement
If Izzy and Joao haven't found each other, I don't think we're likely to find her from where we are. Prefer protection.
okay protection it is
bcool
Deity
set up to steal it perhaps by putting the spy in her closest taoist city and perhaps running spy specialists again. Although that won't work well with research we will have invested in it going 0% on for several turns.
mabraham
Deity
Sorry. I meant I don't want new pikes. Trebs are great. However we don't need lots of pike support for opponents who won't have knights.
bcool
Deity
editted PPP again after mabraham's feedback.
adrianj
Deity
Not sure if this fits in with this turnset, but as soon as we have knowledge of Gunpowder you can put the slider back to 100% on Civil Service and trade for Theology if you wish.
Paper becoming available is not a problem when are about to tech Chemistry, since Chemistry is a higher priority for the bulb.
I presume we won't get Theology.
Other deals look good.
Giving in to demands may need to be reconsidered. The only player we care to have friendly is Willem, so only give in to demands from him. Reject everyone else.
Also, be alert to possibilities of bribing AIs into war with eachother. Eg, Willem vs someone he dislikes if we get him friendly.
Is the 4th GS the limiting factor on Astro, or learning Optics? I see no reason to delay until the 4th GS if we pick up Optics earlier through trade.
I'm not really in any position to comment on MM.
What would we do differently if Willem teched Astro?
Even if he got there before us, I think it is still more efficient to double bulb it than attempt to trade or steal it. I would suggest keep an eye on him, but if he starts it is no reason to stop.
Sabotage values? Meh, let the AI build wonders.
Cool
bcool
Deity
comments in blue
Not sure if this fits in with this turnset, but as soon as we have knowledge of Gunpowder you can put the slider back to 100% on Civil Service and trade for Theology if you wish.
Paper becoming available is not a problem when are about to tech Chemistry, since Chemistry is a higher priority for the bulb.
I presume we won't get Theology.
Other deals look good.
fixed no theology
Giving in to demands may need to be reconsidered. The only player we care to have friendly is Willem, so only give in to demands from him. Reject everyone else.
Also, be alert to possibilities of bribing AIs into war with eachother. Eg, Willem vs someone he dislikes if we get him friendly.
I would still give into small demands since for the next 15 turns or so a war would be awkward, and if an AI hates us it makes it more likely they would attempt a war on us.
Is the 4th GS the limiting factor on Astro, or learning Optics? I see no reason to delay until the 4th GS if we pick up Optics earlier through trade.
Yes we keep the colossus benefit longer and we assure that the 4th great person is a GS.
I'm not really in any position to comment on MM.
What would we do differently if Willem teched Astro?
Even if he got there before us, I think it is still more efficient to double bulb it than attempt to trade or steal it. I would suggest keep an eye on him, but if he starts it is no reason to stop.
Okay this is a hold out from my earlier ideas of teching gunpowder ourselves.
Sabotage values? Meh, let the AI build wonders.
It is nice to know where they are, so we can better plan wars. Like the MoM would be nice to have.
Cool
bcool
Deity
Okay I have plans tomorrow evening, but I should be able to play the next evening so about 44 hours from now. All feedback is welcome of course still.
If we are concerned about the delay and mostly agree on the PPP for the next turn set, the next player could even draft a rough draft of the next PPP if we wanted to accelerate things slightly.
If we are concerned about the delay and mostly agree on the PPP for the next turn set, the next player could even draft a rough draft of the next PPP if we wanted to accelerate things slightly.
mabraham
Deity
OK, that'll be midday Saturday for me, and I don't think I have any plans for Saturday, so I ought to be available for any mid-set consultation, and (assuming I'm next) should be able to table a draft PPP later that day.
