The Next Immortal Challenge

I'm sure you guys know what happened in the last game. It's rather discouraging, but I think we walked away having learned some important lessons that would be useful in helping us avoid the same fate in subsequent games. Some readers have recommended moving back to Emperor to explore different strategies, but others and I are not in favour of that. We've made the step, so let's just stick to it. Anyway, moving down a level might be in order after Beyond the Sword is released, if this series is still going on then. Let's be Immortals while we can

As I said, we would be going into the next game with more knowledge and skill. However, just in case that's not enough, we'll also be switching to Epic speed. Epic makes things more convenient for the human player, since you can move units during wartime in relatively shorter time periods, thus giving you a higher chance of winning the war before the other AIs can advance far beyond you in tech (which is partly why we lost the last game). And war we definitely will.

Since we're switching to Epic, I'd like to stick to my original idea of playing Churchill next. There seems to be no great love for the Prime Minister, a fact that can be attributed to the relative weakness of the Protective trait in SP. It doesn't help that most people underrate the trait. While archery units generally don't get built (with the exception of crossbows), the trait is actually quite useful post-Gunpowder, even if you're going on the offensive. The free Drill I always help and the free City Garrison I would help you hold on to cities you have just captured. And, with Churchill, there's the tempting prospect of Drill V Redcoats. Charismatic, meanwhile, is a good trait for SP, especially in the early game where happiness caps are low. The English UB, meanwhile, helps the economy in mid to late game and would be synergistic with switching to the builder path to pursue a more peaceful victory, should that prove to be necessary (I think so).

So, what do you guys say? Are we up for it?


PS: There's also the question of what we should do with the last game. Should we keep it on record, even though it's somewhat uninspiring?

Good to hear you haven't lost heart. Epic should help with warfare.

Of course, keep the last game on record (and in your sig). Nothing to be ashamed of there. Immortal's a tough game.

Keep the last game, it was a honorable defeat.

And Churchill? I always shun leaders like him. (no economic trait at all or anything "builderish" to compensate) Will be interesting to see him in action.

I really want to know your battle plan now. Are you gonna use Charismatic for making some insane Redcoats later?
(CR3 Combat 1-2 and Drill + CG when upgraded should be in reach)

How do you make Drill V Redcoats by the way? Archers upgrade? (Will we see a longbow/archer rush? )
I've been protective before and i don't recall gunpowder units get more drill promotions after the protective bonus.

Sjaramei said:

How do you make Drill V Redcoats by the way? Archers upgrade? (Will we see a longbow/archer rush? )

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More likely an upgrade from crossbowmen.

I'm very happy to see this series moving to a slower paced game speed. Protective plus stone can produce some decent early cash if you don't feel that the overflow gold stuff is too gamey or an exploit.

Heres hoping this series is still going at Beyond the Sword and beyond.

Please do continue. Although I cannot contribute much to the collective wisdom, I am one of those players that follows your threads in order to learn and (hopefully) improve.

Please do keep the last immortal challenge on record. We learn more from a defeat than 10 victories. Well, really we will remember the mistakes we made in the defeat than the good choices we made in the victories.

Looking forward to lurking around in the next challenge too.

I'm looking forward to you warring with Drill IV redcoats, they're obscene. Here are my thoughts on them them in your Comprehensive UU Guide

UncleJJ said:

I like this idea of upgrading drill promoted archery units for riflemen and Redcoats in particular very much . A Drill 4 Redcoat is obscene getting a total of 5 first strikes and a chance of another, and +10% versus mounted in addition to normal Redcoat bonusses against mounted and gunpowder troops. The 60% reduction in collateral damage from Drill 4 makes him a great attacker or defender.

Churchill is much better than any other leader in pulling this off. He's Protective (Drill 1 free) and Charismatic (level 4 costs 8 exp), so a Drill4 Longbowman can be built in a city with barracks, and a combination of Military advisors and running Vassalage / Theocracy. Other (non protective) leaders need to get a level 5 archery unit for Drill 4 which is harder to get. It should be fairly easy to get a few protected longbows or crossbows promoted to 8 exp (or even 17 exp) by following your main attacking stack and finishing off weakened defenders. Merging a great general to a longbow, crossbow or even archer with decent experience is another way to get a late Drill 4 rifleman and the upgrades come for free.

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I notice I made a small mistake there wrt to free strikes and chances of free strikes... Drill IV gives 3 free strikes and 3 chances of free strikes, but that is still devastating in many circumstances.

For Churchill the key point is a city that can make longbows or crossbows with 8 exp can make Drill IV units. So two military instructors and Theocracy or Vassalage is all that's needed.

Redcoats are also extremely potent when drafted so I guess the Liberalism - Nationhood standard research path is called for, followed by a beeline to Rifling. Then upgrade the Drill IV archery guys to spearhead the attack and draft a load more redcoats with 2 exp to get CG2 for defence. I find CG2 rifles are very good at absorbing counterattacks on newly captured cities.

I had one of my easiest games with Churchill on monarch (where I only win 20% or something). The redcoats are just sick with drill and CG. I do think he is one of the finer warmonger since both traits contribute to wars. Defensive units are a lot stronger so you won't have too much problems fending of enemies and offensive units get quicker promotions. What is not to like about him. Good luck with this game Aelf and lets hope it gets a better ending then your last game.

Damn Uncle JJ said it before me lol ah well.

Too bad the English don;t start with hunting, for early Protective Archers, you'll need archery eventually to build level 4 Crossbow/Longbowman.

Note also Charismatic is a very good trait for building Blitz Cavalry which only require 13XP (level 5)

Barracks + Stables + WP + Civics or 2GGs = 13XP

If you get lucky enough to settle 4 GGS in that 1 city you can get level 6 units for deadly Commando Cavalry... but unlike the human player the AI defend their all Cities more or less equally, while humans focus on boarder city defense, so the Commando Promotion isn't gonna be that useful lol, but Blitz Cavalry are still nice, kind of like early tanks but without the City Raid Promotion.

Drill IV Archers aren't as effective as Longbowmen or Crossbowmen, so no great loss. You should start with the normal early game strategies. Except, you might try using the Oracle to slingshot to Machinery. Although, that is alot of waiting before discovering Metal Casting. Anyway, my point is that you can hold off on Archery until later, and pick it up in a trade. The AI loves to toss it in any tech trade you offer.

Btw, great shot at the other immortal game. The fact that you survived is inspiring to those of us still on Emperor. Every time I do an Immortal game, I get trounced before 600AD.

I am ambivalent about the choice of Churchill. I think he has the two weakest traits in the mix. To tackle Immortal with these traits would be suicidal for me.

OTOH, if you can demonstrate how to use these traits successfully I and others would learn a lot.

I doubt Redcoats will be a decisive factor in the outcome of this game - it will be largely decided long before they arrive on the scene. At best they can play defense while you shoot for the stars.

Bottom line I would recommend a leader with better traits at this very high level of play.

Tyrant Roger said:

I am ambivalent about the choice of Churchill. I think he has the two weakest traits in the mix. To tackle Immortal with these traits would be suicidal for me.

OTOH, if you can demonstrate how to use these traits successfully I and others would learn a lot.

I doubt Redcoats will be a decisive factor in the outcome of this game - it will be largely decided long before they arrive on the scene. At best they can play defense while you shoot for the stars.

Bottom line I would recommend a leader with better traits at this very high level of play.

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You consider Charismatic weak?
I love it, +2 happiness and fast promoted units. It's better than aggressive in my opinion.
However with protective i agree. (defense bonuses suck!)

Thanks, guys. I should be able to get the game going tomorrow.

Tyrant Roger said:

I am ambivalent about the choice of Churchill. I think he has the two weakest traits in the mix. To tackle Immortal with these traits would be suicidal for me.

OTOH, if you can demonstrate how to use these traits successfully I and others would learn a lot.

I doubt Redcoats will be a decisive factor in the outcome of this game - it will be largely decided long before they arrive on the scene. At best they can play defense while you shoot for the stars.

Bottom line I would recommend a leader with better traits at this very high level of play.

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IMO, Charismatic is actually a powerful trait at this level, as I have explained in the OP. Protective isn't great, but it has its uses. And it helps Churchill's UU (which I think is early enough to be quite assured of seeing action - perhaps exactly in the last war before going peaceful). I don't think we can ask for much more, save from a really strong leader like Augustus.

Acquiring Drill IV crossbows to be upgraded to Redcoats will be a good challenge.

Yeah, charismatic is definitely the best of the new warlords traits, and it's in the top 3 or 4 of all traits. I'm not sure what you have against it.

churchill is it. well I'm going to weigh in waaay in the beginning.

not sure how good/helpful this would be on immortal. but I like to set this up about the time I can start building banks.

cottage up early, then when you are ready turn OFF research

set all cottage cities to build market, next turn rush build as many as you can afford, repeat. ones that finish start on grocers.. repeat. then everyone builds a bank. highest gold producer rushes wall street.

cities are producing 2x their normal gold output. begin mass bribery of citizens to rush build redcoats and cannons. within 10 turns I usually have 30-40 redcoats and 20 or so cannons from this with no drafting unhappiness. procede to go pound on someone with it

if you can add some golden ages to it so much the better, speeds the process up greatly.

excess gold can be used to try for buying tech/bribing target's neighbors, rush build other tasty things etc.

I know I know churchill is not financial so you wont be making an extra 2 gold per cottage.. but thats ok. a newly hired force of drill redcoats is fine and they suffer no exp loss from rush building (instead of drafting)

NaZ

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