The new patch has made a bad game even worse

I know there are many people who can beat emperor or above, but still only through cheese tactics mainly.

Even on the latest polycast, it was discussed that only huge empires can keep up with the AI.

The way people beat Emperor or higher is through the usual AI exploits of:

  • Settling a second city, selling it, buy large army then reclaiming your city then wipe out the rest of that ai
  • Settling on a resource and selling it, then buying units to do as above
  • Selling all your resources to an AI for lots of gold, upgrade all your units, then declare war and march right into their territory (reclaiming resources)
  • Setting up defensive positions where the AI will constantly suicide you
  • The list goes on...


The point is, you should be able to beat the AI on the higher levels, without being forced to exploit it to keep up. ;)

I won a space victory yesterday on Emperor with Inca with 6 cities without coal and aluminium..... on a large continents map. (Eventually got aluminium from allying a CS. Didn't really matter though.)

Had two military units most of the game and was not attacked once. Did not conquer any cities until the game was already won and I wanted to test the new combat.

The game before I had three cities, and would have won a space victory there as well if it wasn't for Alexander who had steamrolled over his continent, and had a million gold and befriended every city state there was for a diplo victory.

All this whining about difficulty is ridiculous.
 
^^^ try that on a Pangaea map. ^^^

Water unfortunately makes the AI very bad in general. I've done the same thing, Peaceful island games, press enter until victory.
 
Your probably right. I've had lots of fun with Babylon Academy/NC combo.

I guess theres an element of pride involved when it comes to lowering the difficulty.

I used to win on Diety and now struggling on Emperor... :confused:

that's awesome, it's like getting a couple of higher difficulty levels for free. I'm still on my first immortal game, not sure if I'm going to win or not. Probably 50/50 at this point just b/c I'm just getting to industrial on turn 170. I took over the entire continent other than a few cities and have been a complet warmonger for the entire game. I started on turn 40 btw so ancient era warfare is absolutely still profitable if implemented correctly.

This is a huge step, the game is much harder and this is a good thing. I now find myself really thinking about which cities I need to conquer, if I need to play defensively, if I need to try for a peaceful victory rather than just zerging the AI with a flood of units.

MUCH IMPROVED. Thank you, Firaxis. I'm enjoying this as a civ strategy game again and not just as a tactical war-game.

There's a few typos though - in the Honor SP tree, Discipline is listed as +15% when it's in fact +10% (correctly listed in the combat calculator). Also, I've seen the combat calculator still display "-33%" for Open Terrain from time to time (mostly, it correctly displays "-10%").

I've only seen it display -33% in marshes now. maybe that's an undocumented fix, I know that they are 3 movement instead of 2 now.
 
That sounds like my kind of game. But two military units? I need more than that just for the constant barbarians destroying my tile improvements.

I won a space victory yesterday on Emperor with Inca with 6 cities without coal and aluminium..... on a large continents map. (Eventually got aluminium from allying a CS. Didn't really matter though.)

Had two military units most of the game and was not attacked once. Did not conquer any cities until the game was already won and I wanted to test the new combat.

The game before I had three cities, and would have won a space victory there as well if it wasn't for Alexander who had steamrolled over his continent, and had a million gold and befriended every city state there was for a diplo victory.

All this whining about difficulty is ridiculous.
 
Actually, the patch *HAS* made the game worse.

Yes, it is no longer easy to conquer the cities of a braindead AI and this a good thing.
But: this was not achieved by making the AI considerably more intelligent. Actually, I found it to be almost as bad as before. Still I got attacked by lonely archers, being an easy prey for each of my units, except workers...

Lifting the difficulty was achieved by different changes which require you to spend more time in defensive buildings, making it harder to get money by trading and building blocks of nations.

Strange enough, people were complaining about this blockbuilding due to Civ4's religion. Now, out of a sudden, when you do the same by DoF's, everything is fine? C'mon...

We need more production, but still the border expansion avoids any hex related to production as long as possible. Wth?

Furthermore, as with the last patch, new errors were implemented.
With patch 0.62, we've got a city governor which lets cities starve. Wth?

Now we've got trades which mystically are ended after one turn; we experience that the road to our allied city state doesn't have any benefit anymore.
What the heck are these guys doing?

wow, didn't see that comment coming from a long-time ciV hater. A few comments:
Moderator Action: There is no need for the "long-time ciV hater" comment.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

1. AI is enormously more intelligent now (though that is of course a relative thing). it tries much harder to keep ranged units in cities, in fact I had the irroquois rush buy a ranged unit 6 times as I took over his 9 city empire the other day. and it focuses fire with cities/ranged units, forcing you to spend more time on each city and giving you a very real chance of losing a unit or two when taking difficult cities. when you start losing units even with good tactics then it's harder to get the army of the apocalypse rolling, and before you know it the remaining ai's have a strong tech lead over you b/c it took you too long to get to them. overall they just tweaked a few things here but it's made a massive difference.
2. unsure why you're building defensive in most cities. you're not REQUIRED to build them anywhere, it's just very smart to build them in cities that are under attack now instead of building units there instead.
3. blockbuilding was in ciV already, we just couldn't see the ai's "thought process" before. poc spam is now dof spam, and you don't invade your "friends" without a rep hit just as before. only real change is denouncing your enemies. backstabbing is still quite common, I backstabbed a friend the other day, leading to another friend backstabbing ME by denouncing (rather than attacking) me. then he backstabbed our other friends and we dogpiled him ;)
4. border expansion favoring grass tiles is very annoying, at least now borders expand much more rapidly. angkor wat actually works per the in-game description, landed elite with the much more popular tradition tree, and lowered cost for the first tile expansion are all huge benefits. at least we'll get through the crappy tiles faster now.
5. I got starved one time by the city governor, after that I started looking for the red starving symbol to pop up at the start of my turn and changed the governor's settings in that town right away. since I've done that it hasn't happened again, the governor won't change your manual tile settings. that is a bad design decision imho, however.
6. trades not going through allied cs's is frustrating, hopefully that will be fixed soon.


in general we got a LOT of much needed improvements and very few new issues. I'll happily take the patch vs the old version, I can actually play an un-modded game now and enjoy it.
 
Suppose I make a version of CiV where I decide that every AI player starts with 1,000,000 gold, buys the best military unit they can afford (with a mix of settlers to expand so they can buy more military units per turn). And is very warmonger oriented. This game would obviously be hard (The AI would have such an absurd unit advantage and would convert that into attacking you, but it wouldn't be fun. The way in which the AI breaks symmetry is just completely jarring and boring.

In CiV, we have a tactical combat system where the AI can't adequately handle combat. As a result it recieves huge economic bonuses, which already tends to force strategies into a very narrow window (the easiest way to beat the game is to exploit the AI's bad combat interface, trying to keep up economically is suicide). Several strategies emerged for keeping up economically, most notably ICS, and the game programmers responded by nerfing ICS to the extreme for game balance (fine it was unbalanced), but also with an AI programmed to ICS (look at the AI city spacing), and then instead of adapting the AI to the nerfs, they rely on a massive happiness bonus to ignore them.

In essence on high difficulty levels the AI is playing a game of ICS with other huge bonuses (free units including a settler, two workers, four warriors,...). That game got given added value by making its cities more easily defended (another patch change), and by the results of taking cities as puppets (happiness penalties) resulting in it being hard to conquer the AI in one go. Instead of the AI offering me a tactical challenge, I still destroy it tactically rather effortlessly, but the happiness penalty exists slowly to slow down my steamroll. If a player had the same happiness bonus as the AI it would without a doubt be correct to ICS. In essence, the game has one clearly optimal strategy which the AI is using and a system (happiness) is introduced in a way that doesn't affect the AI using that strategy but which closes it to the player. This violates every notion of the game being a symmetric strategy game.

keep in mind that this is all only the case at higher difficulty levels. on king the ai doesn't get those huge bonuses and doesn't ics. on settler the human can ics with his huge happiness bonuses as well. if you feel like the ai is cheating then you must not remember cIV very well, remember the deity bonuses in that game? 50% + of the time you were dead on deity at turn 1, you were just a walking corpse and didn't know it for a couple of hours. ciV is still much easier at the highest levels, largely b/c they don't ramp up the human player penalties at higher levels and instead just give bonuses to the ai. how much easier would deity in cIV be if you didn't get the huge happiness penalty for example? at least now we don't have to contend with war weariness...

Get rid of some of the happiness nerfs, give all AI units +25% combat strength and I'd be a lot happier.. the combat would actually be interesting, and I wouldn't be 'forced' into a linear abuse the AI's bad tactics game.

not a bad idea at all. however, lots of people would complain about that, and the patch has fixed a lot of player advantages:
1. horseman nerf is very damaging to humans b/c even post-.062 patch I rarely saw more than 1 or 2 ai horses other than UU's. -33% vs city and 10 instead of 12 combat power is a HUGE reduction in power, effectively much greater than a 25% overall bonus to the ai.
2. numerous slight tweaks to the combat system are much more damaging to the human than ai:
-flanking down to 10% instead of 15%.
-open terrain combat penalty down to -10% vs -33%. this one single change is equivalent to the theoretical ai +25% bonus in many cases b/c the ai still leaves his units sitting on flat terrain quite often.
-GG -5% for all civs and -10% for china, again almost always damaging to human but rarely affects ai
-must take combat promotions right away: no longer able to store 3 healing promotions, which the ai was never able to do anyway. HUGE net benefit to ai.
-mil tradition down to +50% instead of +100%. not as damaging now that you can't store healing promos anymore, but still makes it a bit harder to plan out promotions effective. at worst it is a wash for ai vs humans.
-huge increase in city power is probably equivalent to about +100% overall. they heal faster, horses/archers are weaker against them, they have better combat power b/c they ramp up faster due to techs now, vastly increased healing, AND you don't get terrain bonuses vs cities any more. some cities will literally be unconquerable or nearly so now, even for the best players. generally I think that this favors the human as he's much less likely to run into a runaway ai while the human will just focus on devloping better tactics to overcome the changes, but again it is at worst neutral.

overall combat is much more balanced now, and in my opinion the effective ai bonus vs vanilla is much greater than 25%. plus they don't get harrassed for adding another ai nerf. win-win!
 
I know the question was not meant for me but I play Civ to be challenged. The fun is in the learning of different strategies and working your way up the difficulty, winning different ways. Once I hit a plateau like I did in Civ4, then I start thinking outside of the box and read about very different ways to play.

I do NOT play to be challenged, never, ever. I play for having a feeling that pleases to me. It's because of guys like you that Civ games tend to be harder and harder. Personnally, I'm with the OP.

Discovering Civ is what makes me having fun. At a time, I begin to wonder: when will this stop? Have I played enough? And then, the difficulty levels appear. I consider a game of Civ completed when i have completed the game in harder difficulty level at least once. And i'm just happy when I can say myself "ok now let's move on, I had of this game all what i could expect".

You don't know, I'm very happy when this happens. And I don't care how really difficult it was, even if the mechanics are guessable by the first peon, I don't care, I feel like I beat the game and i'm happy. On the contrary, I'm frustrated beyond believe if I'm stuck to Emperor level as I was in Civ4. I feel i missed something.

The worst being when the involved mechanics are to be "read" into the game code. You say you like learn reading forums and all, but you just read things that people got from the code. I do not like learning. I had enough of that at school, really. And i'm not a programmer. I like games that can be completed by our own, not lurking into forums to see the exploits. I don't care if other people find exploits by lurking the game code, or even by themselves by just playing the game. What I like is guessing by myself. And I'm not happy when it's too hard. Simply. Period.

No, I don't even like guessing by myself. I like it in comparison of lurking forums. But what I like fundamentaly is living new or fun experiences. Kicking the ass of a peaceful neighboring nation is fun, because after some games, you know that those nations will hate you anyway. It's just fun to beat the s*it out of them. And it's fun because it's like big ancient wars, you rule an army and you go killing people. Etc...

So please don't assume anymore that the fun in a game is beating it. It's not true. It hasn't been the case with Civ1 (easy guessable mechanics), Civ2 nor Civ3. However, those games were great and Civ2 was what made me love the series. However, it was not "complex" as Civ4... but see, now i'm here and talking about Civ.
 
So long as the AI can handle some acceptable minimum threshold for formation combat, I'm content.

The AI's inability to handle 1upt is totally blown out of proportion by the complete lack of non-militaristic approaches to the game. The stream-lined tech tree and derelict diplomacy system are so shallow that they've become window dressing to constant war. Add in the lack of mini-games (religion/espionage in CIV), and you can't help but focus on the AI's greatest weakness in any of the CIV games, it's inability to handle combat.

As I said, there's a minimum threshold that's acceptable, but it's really only acceptable when the game offers several different gameplay approaches.

I was tremendously disappointed when I first found out that CSs can't expand; any cities they capture auto-raze once out of anarchy. Guiding a CS to global domination is exactly what the community needs, not because everyone will play it, but because just one guy will play it well and post a awesome report about it.

How far would CIV have gotten without Spain on a Lake? Far enough, I suppose, but the community is certainly what kept me coming back.

Now the community is a mixed bag of trolls (GJ "expanding" the playerbase), veterans who are disappointed with the game, some devoted fans (primarily first-time Civ'ers), and a posse of forumfans who feel obliged to refute/report any negative comments about the game.

And with that, I'm moving way off topic.

In my current game two different ai's have "puppet cities". one of them completed his own quest to kill a rival CS. naturally, I went and rescued that poor, puppeted, friendly maitime CS...;) even in some older games I've seen CS's go crazy, one time I had an allied CS take out 4 or 5 of the irroquois' cities. he kept the capital and one other, burned the other 2 or 3. generally they only keep well-developed cities or cities with luxuries/strategic minerals.

This whole "CS conquering" concept would be easy to do on lower difficulties. just run a pangea settler map, tech to electronics, gift 20 or so mech inf to your CS buddy, then dow everybody. should be fun to watch if nothing else!

I know there are many people who can beat emperor or above, but still only through cheese tactics mainly.

Even on the latest polycast, it was discussed that only huge empires can keep up with the AI.

The way people beat Emperor or higher is through the usual AI exploits of:

  • Settling a second city, selling it, buy large army then reclaiming your city then wipe out the rest of that ai
  • Settling on a resource and selling it, then buying units to do as above
  • Selling all your resources to an AI for lots of gold, upgrade all your units, then declare war and march right into their territory (reclaiming resources)
  • Setting up defensive positions where the AI will constantly suicide you
  • The list goes on...


The point is, you should be able to beat the AI on the higher levels, without being forced to exploit it to keep up. ;)

I don't do any of those things. I win 100% of the time at emperor and 90% + at immortal. I do try to tactically manage my troops properly, but I have a lot more strategies than just turtling.
 
Pirates don't pay for anything... so it's quite easy to come here and stir hell. They're barking at the wrong tree though, cuz if they want more attention from anybody - they can't count me out from now on.

- I will resist being hooked line&sinker&pole&fisherman into their traps, trollings, complaints, wreckings, rantings -- to the best of my intellect.
- I will NOT be cursed into yet another pointless debate over what needs to patched or fixed by Firaxis Devs -- publicly in these Forums general discussion threads.
- I will never engage in silly exchanges of back&forth arguments inspired by a code flaw detected by any competent players or every other noobs through accidental rationalization of the ruleset.
-I will actively encouraged anyone to react the same way at the mere sighting of such attempts and contact or ask Moderators for immediate action against such attacks on our ciV section if needed, even tougher drastic measures directed at pseudo-members.

- As a result, I will *probably* have to limit my participation to CFC community in general.

- I will *THOUGH* continue working on my own Mods to share with people whom actually play and enjoy this wonderful Fifth iteration of a TBS concept.
- I will stay at home in the peacefulness of some or many good epic sized personally started CiV gameplay and bite my tongue when things get weird, trusting some smart coders or modders will be hanging behind the horizon underneath dark clouds to offer me great solutions rather than negative attitudes or thoughts.

It -- simply -- has -- gone -- too -- far -- for -- my -- taste.

Certainly not leaving, cuz that would justify their crazy agenda and the means by which they try destroying the harmony of positive ideas given by people.

They didn't win, i didn't lose. So should we all. Fanatics or not.
Think whatever you want from this.

End of Manifesto.

Oookay...? How is this constructive or helpful? :rolleyes:

Perhaps you'd like to talk about the game instead of the imaginary war you're fighting in your own mind against the hordes of nonbelievers? Moderator Action: Also backtrolling is not allowed. These are serious questions and I'd like your responses:

Do you feel the current patch legitimizes ICS for the AI but while disallowing those strategies for players? Why or why not?

Do you see any potentially detrimental changes that result from enabling tech overflow without increasing tile yields or production rates?

The OP is having trouble on Emperor and would like some insight or help from other Civ players. Do you play on Emperor? What difficulty level do you play on since the patch? Are you winning your games consistently? What kind of maps do you play? How many AI opponents? Do you enable city-states?

Could you perhaps offer some tips to help other members who are having trouble, rather than drawing a line in the sand and declaring your own war on them?

I know you may be upset with someone for disliking the patch, but maybe you could post something constructive for your fellow Civilization fans, instead of accusing them of piracy, calling them haters, trolls, or pseudo-members, and attacking their credibility as Civ fans.

Looking forward to hearing your "positive thoughts," because so far you've posted some very, very negative and accusatory ones. Thanks.
 
Random idea - when a civ is wiped out, the leader escapes to lead a random CS to civhood. Montezuma, Emperor of Stockholm...)
I'm at the altar of the Godly_Almighty_Temple of gameplay features & praying a Modder does it while matching his/her experimental jewel with Gazebo's Diplo-Mod.
No specific reason, no personal emotion involved... just the usual freakish intellectual curiosity that leads to Hell & back for more.

It happened in my current game (pangea/standard size/emperor). Around turn 280, America has a 9% approval rating. I saw 3 anti-tank guns spawn in their territory.

So...confirmed.

Wooowww... PROVE it with a juicy snapshot for us, would you please?

Looking forward to hearing your "positive thoughts," because so far you've posted some very, very negative and accusatory ones. Thanks.

Short answer? My pleasure.

For everything else, you'll have to scan through pages worth of (possibly) recent posts to find some Zyxpsilon's replies in a few key threads - you may yet discover how positively appropriate i can become when it matters.
I took these attacks personally - somehow just as even the thread title spelled it for interpretation: The new patch has made a bad game even worse.
Which to me... is (at least) negative & accusatory.
Don't kill the messenger.
 
Short answer? My pleasure.

For everything else, you'll have to scan through pages worth of (possibly) recent posts to find some Zyxpsilon's replies in a few key threads - you may yet discover how positively appropriate i can become when it matters.
I took these attacks personally - somehow just as even the thread title spelled it for interpretation: The new patch has made a bad game even worse.
Which to me... is (at least) negative & accusatory.
Don't kill the messenger.

So, because you disliked a thread title, you throw around accusations of trolling, piracy, etc.

o you not see any irony or hypocrisy in writing a "Manifesto" where you claim to champion constructive contributions and civility, while simultaneously refusing to make any constructive, civil contribution yourself?
 
Expressive as the word may have read, End of Manifesto was the shortest cut to the chase hit&run trick i could think of for a conclusion to that post.
Do NOT take me for an idiot... i've read every last letters, dots & inclinations typed by anyone in this thread *BEFORE* reacting with something you seem to condemn.
My freedom starts where yours begins and vice-versa.
I'm done here (with the off-topic sidetrack loop you're leading me on, btw). You wanna insist - fine, enjoy it. Any further comment on your part about that specific issue will simply fall on deaf ears. PM if you must, and ask moderators for help. But i doubt, it's *THAT* important.
 
I won a space victory yesterday on Emperor with Inca with 6 cities without coal and aluminium..... on a large continents map. (Eventually got aluminium from allying a CS. Didn't really matter though.)

Had two military units most of the game and was not attacked once. Did not conquer any cities until the game was already won and I wanted to test the new combat.

The game before I had three cities, and would have won a space victory there as well if it wasn't for Alexander who had steamrolled over his continent, and had a million gold and befriended every city state there was for a diplo victory.

All this whining about difficulty is ridiculous.
Won a game with six cities?
Two military units for most of the game?
Almost won another game with three cites?

Wow! So much for building an empire to stand the test of time. It must not be much fun either. :confused:
 
I do NOT play to be challenged, never, ever. I play for having a feeling that pleases to me.
[...]
I consider a game of Civ completed when i have completed the game in harder difficulty level at least once.
[...]
You don't know, I'm very happy when this happens. And I don't care how really difficult it was, even if the mechanics are guessable by the first peon, I don't care, I feel like I beat the game and i'm happy.
[...]
I do not like learning.
[...]
Kicking the ass of a peaceful neighboring nation is fun, because after some games, you know that those nations will hate you anyway. It's just fun to beat the s*it out of them.
I think perhaps the Civilization series is not meant for your type of game enjoyment. There are several games you could play for what you're looking for, including the incredibly popular Minesweeper.
 
I'm at the altar of the Godly_Almighty_Temple of gameplay features & praying a Modder does it while matching his/her experimental jewel with Gazebo's Diplo-Mod.
No specific reason, no personal emotion involved... just the usual freakish intellectual curiosity that leads to Hell & back for more.

Heh. You do have a unique writing style (and I don't mean that as an insult). A tad undiplomatic at times, tho, I must say.

Yeah, freakish intellectual curiosity indeed - I'm hoping to take more of an interest in modding, it's the only way to get even with this (so far) hopeless game. From the looks of the forum over there, people are doing some seriously interesting things. Have to wait till at least the New Year tho, can't risk getting dragged in now...
 
Believe it or not, i do a have a few positives to say about the patch:

I really like the +1 hammer from watermills,

AIs do use aircraft now (though as ineffectively as everything else)

Tradition tree greatly improved, and now very tempting for any game

Improved piety makes an interesting choice between piety and rationalism (but I think personally that piety is always better, as theocracy can counter the unhappiness problems elsewhere)

A weakened liberty tree makes autocracy more realistic (no compatibilty issues if liberty isn't chosen, which seeing how much its been nerfed, is not often in my book ;) )
 
Yes i agree totally with what you are criticizing about the new patch. Total disappointment. Civ5 seems to be a lost cause. I will remember Civ4 as the last and the best real Civ-game. Time to look around for other franchises that satisfies the needs of a broken down civfanatic...
 
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