Piety is now Ancient - still very weak.
- Thread starter Arilian
- Start date
from the Temple discount too!
Monthar
Deity
Technically yes, but you only get to choose a reformation belief by taking the Reformation policy in Piety. Thus without going into Piety, you can't get that reformation belief.
Monthar
Deity
You are not getting a 20 hammer discount on the pyramid, it still costs 40 production. Instead you are doubling your production output when building the pyramid. What this means, is you have the potential for a lot of overflow into whatever you build after the shrine. If your city has 19 production, when building the pyramid the city will be boosted to 38 production. It will take 2 turns to build the pyramid for a total of 76 production generated, 36 of which gets dumped into whatever you're building next. That's more than half the production needed for a worker and all this from taking 1 policy in Piety.
The beauty of the shrines and UB shrines is you can sell them and rebuild them as much as you like. This means once your city's production is more than 20 you can sell and rebuild your shrine/shrine UB every other turn to dump some overflow into the next item in your queue all while gaining gold from the repeated selling of the shrine/shrine UB. Once your city reaches 40 production you can do this without losing any turn on the next item in the queue. As the city gain more and more production over 40, you start shaving turns off the next item by selling and putting the shrine/shrine UB at the top of the queue every other turn. The reason it's every other turn, is you have to build the next item for a turn after the shrine or the overflow is lost.
mitsho
Deity
Wow, that has to be an "unintended" side-effect. I do normally shy away from such methods and it does explain to me why all these "build x faster"-policies are not the most well balanced... Also, I'd rather do less repetitive tasks, it's a game after all.
So I wouldn't count that technique if comparing the strength of a policy.
Maybe the effect is a purely psychological one. The other openers give you something directly, culture per turn for free. Piety gives you something sooner, but not more of it. The extra faith for a few turns may be crucial in the early game, but it's not necessarily a satisfying effect.
So I wouldn't count that technique if comparing the strength of a policy.
Maybe the effect is a purely psychological one. The other openers give you something directly, culture per turn for free. Piety gives you something sooner, but not more of it. The extra faith for a few turns may be crucial in the early game, but it's not necessarily a satisfying effect.
Hulking Lummox
Warlord
Interesting, Monthar! However, now that you have put it out there where firaxis can see.. Oh... "Aaaannnnnd it's gone."
What I mean is that not everyone doing Piety gets it, and you have to choose that over one of the other Reformation beliefs.
playshogi
Emperor
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Does the overflow get doubled again if your new project can also be built at double speed?
Monthar
Deity
There's a thread in the Strategy forums about this. So it's been out there for a while.
Monthar
Deity
No, the overflow doesn't get doubled, but the production generated by the project would be doubled. Let's say you finish the shrine then start a temple. The city is at 19 base production for the all the turns it takes to build both. Shrines cost 40 production and temples cost 100 production. With the Piety opener the city's production is doubled when building shrines and temples.
Turn
1 - 38 production put into shrine.
2 - Shrine completed with 36 overflow. (38+38=76) (76-40=36)
3 - 74 production put into temple (36 overflow + 38 production)
4 - Temple completed with 12 overflow for the next project. (74+38=112) (112-100 = 12)
Let's say you sold the shrine as soon as the temple completed and put it back in the queue for turn 5.
5 - Shrine completed with 10 overflow for the next project (12 overflow from temple + 38 production = 50) (50-40 = 10)
So you still have 10 overflow for the next project on turn 6 and that project delayed by a turn, but you have the cash from selling the shrine. Buildings sell for 25% of their production cost, so that's 10 gold.
Edit: After guilds if you build wealth for 2 turns at the same 19 production you'd gain 4.75 gold per turn. At 20 production it would take 2 turns of building wealth to gain the same 10 gold you get from selling a shrine. If you have the Piety opener and your city's base production is 20, you could build the shrine in 1 turn with no overflow, sell it immediately and rebuild it and gain 10 gold per turn every turn you repeat this process, or twice what you would gain from building wealth thanks to the double production when building the shrine.
A Rabid Dopsis
Warlord
My cities produce a lot more than ten gold per turn because I build things like 'markets' and 'banks' rather than 37 shrines.
Monthar
Deity
My cities produce a lot more than ten gold per turn because I build things like 'markets' and 'banks' rather than 37 shrines.
I don't think you're quite getting the point here. Depending on your starting tiles and tech path, you capital can probably be around 40 production by the time you unlock markets. A market costs 100 production.
Let's say your capital is at exactly 40 production. That means it'll take 3 turns to complete a market with 20 overflow for whatever you queue up next.
Sell and rebuild shrines often.
Turn
1 - Sell shrine for 10 gold, put it in the queue with market queued up after it.
2 - Shrine completes and dumps 40 overflow production into market.
3 - Market is now at 80/100.
4 - Market completes with 20 overflow. Sell Shrine and queue it up with whatever you want after it.
5 - Shrine completes with 60 overflow. (2x40 production + 20 overflow from market - 40 for Shrine cost)
6 - Next item is at 100/???
Or
Never sell and rebuild shrine.
Turn
1 - Market added to queue at 0/100
2 - Market 40/100
3 - Market 80/100
4 - Market completes with 20 overflow.
5 - next item is at 60/??? completion
6 - Next item is at 100/???
In both cases the market completes in the same number of turns, but in the first case, you're ahead 20 gold from selling the Shrine twice.
stealth_nsk
Deity
Yes, Byzantium seem to benefit a lot. It doesn't have anything to speed up getting religion, so taking Piety first will at least give advantage over the civs who get other SP trees.
CELTS: well, you've got a faith based UA and a faith based awesome UU, why not? I would love to make a War Religion as them. Things like Just War, Holy Order, Religious Fervor, the barbary missionary conversion could help
Actually Celts, suffer a lot from BNW changes. They get faith from unit and forests, so with reduced Shrine/Temple cost with Piety other civs will be able to get closer to them.
Plus, Iron changes will make Swordsmen more powerful and thus Celt UU less interesting.
Yes, Arabia needs Piety as they could be very good in offensive religion game and for this they need their own religion.
MAYAS: super shrine strategy! A Mayan Pyramid with the appropriate policies and beliefs might give: 3, 2
, 1
, 1
, :1c5happy: and is built in 50% the usual time. Great! As the Mayas rely on GP buying (Long Count increases GP costs), the To the Glory of God reformation belief will be very useful for them. Jesuit Education too.
And don't forget half building cost.
Ethiopia usually plays to found religion an for this, Piety is needed. But since Stele is Monument replacement, they don't get that much bonuses from Piety opener - the same situation as with Celts.
Actually you don't need Piety to play as Indonesia. Candi benefits from multireligion setup, so having state religion is not that good. Also, since Candi is a Garden replacement, it doesn't get all the shiny Temple bonuses.
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Indonesia would benefit from the Religious Tolerance policy because they will be encouraging multiple religions to exist in their cities.
Ryoga
King
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Hmmm I found in the unit data lines about "faithcost" for units in industrial era and later.
These values are probably the default cost in standard speed.
I'll paste a few to give an idea:
Tank, Infantry: 750
Artillery: 500
GW Infantry: 640
Modern armor, Rocket Artillery, Mobile SAM: 850
GDR: 1100
For comparison an archer is listed as having faithcost 80. If I remember correctly that's the amount you need to pay on standard.
These values are probably the default cost in standard speed.
I'll paste a few to give an idea:
Tank, Infantry: 750
Artillery: 500
GW Infantry: 640
Modern armor, Rocket Artillery, Mobile SAM: 850
GDR: 1100
For comparison an archer is listed as having faithcost 80. If I remember correctly that's the amount you need to pay on standard.
stealth_nsk
Deity
With trade routes having more than one religion in a city will be normal (unless you focus on Inquisitors a lot). So, Indonesia will not have any advantages here. Moreover, if you don't found your own religion, you'll probably have more differentiation of religions in the city. So, overall this doesn't look enough to get Piety as Indonesia.
IMHO, optimal Indonesia strategy is to not focus on religion and use Faith produced by Candi to buy Great People.
Overall the info is known. There's a Reformation belief which allows buying Industrial+ units with faith.
ggmoyang
King
In G&K, the faith cost goes up with era and if this remains the same Artillery would cost 1000(x2 in industrial) rather than 500.
Ryoga
King
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Are you sure? I thought the increased cost didn't affect units.
Not sure though, I never take that belief...
seancolorado
Deity
Wait, so as Indonesia do we or do we not found a religion?
Monthar
Deity
I would still try to found a religion not only to have the founder belief, but also to tailor it to suit my needs. Since I'd want other religions in my cities as Indonesia, I'd go with the beliefs that work well with a set number of followers instead of requiring my religion to be the majority.
