Civics in Planetfall

I have yet to look at Apolyton's clone and I don't recall what Roanoke did for civics, but this mechanic is super for differentiating how the factions (civs) value their people, economy, learning, ect. Obviously civics will be in SMAC, but how many columns and how many choices?

Rubin - What kind of civics did you guys have set up at Apolyton? Default or were there some new ones? I can't d/l the mod from work to check it out.

Well now I feel dumb...Civics = Social Engineering. Four columns are basically done if we use what SMAC had. We could add a fifth if we wanted or stick with four. Does anyone have any objections to using the basic 16 social engineering names for starters? I can put them into XML easily enough and we can add values and balance stuff later on.

Just to offer some alternate suggestions: the SMAniaC civics.
Of course neither the vanilla SMAC or SMAniaC could be directly used for a Civ4 mod.

POLITICS

1) LIBERTIES
Democracy: +1 TALENT, -2 POLICE, -1 SUPPORT
<->
Police State: +1 SUPPORT, +2 POLICE, -3 RESEARCH

2) STATE STRUCTURE
Unitary: +2 PROBE, +1 SUPPORT
<->
Federal: +2 EFFIC

=>
Unitary Democracy: +1 TALENT, +2 PROBE, -2 POLICE
Federal Democracy: +1 TALENT, +2 EFFIC, -2 POLICE, -1 SUPPORT
Unitary Police State: +2 SUPPORT, +2 POLICE, +2 PROBE, -3 RESEARCH
Federal Police State: +2 POLICE, +2 EFFIC, +1 SUPPORT, -3 RESEARCH


ECONOMICS:
Subsistence: /
Private / Free Trade: +3 ECONOMY, +1 RESEARCH, -1 TALENT, -2 INDUSTRY, -1 SUPPORT
Planned: +2 GROWTH, +1 INDUSTRY, -2 EFFIC
Private / Protectionist: +2 ECONOMY, -1 TALENT, -1 INDUSTRY, -1 SUPPORT
(Longevity Vaccine)


RULING ELITE:
Technocrat: +2 RESEARCH, +1 EFFIC, -2 PROBE
Junta: +2 SUPPORT, +2 MORALE, -1 INDUSTRY
Empath: +2 TALENT, +2 PLANET, -2 GROWTH
Plutocrat: +1 ECONOMY, +1 INDUSTRY, -2 MORALE
(Cloning Vats: Power = Junta)


SOCIETY:
Frontier: -1 PLANET
Cybernetic: +2 RESEARCH, +1 INDUSTRY, -3 POLICE
Anthropocentric: +2 GROWTH, +1 MORALE, -3 PLANET
Green: +2 PLANET, +2 EFFIC, -1 INDUSTRY
(Future Society line. Network backbone & Cloning Vats)


Basic: Unitary Democracy / Subsistence / Technocrat / Frontier
+1 TALENT, +2 RESEARCH, -2 POLICE, +1 EFFIC, -1 PLANET

I honestly don't understand the categories you just wrote Maniac. I know c/p sometimes gets jumbled.

Are the five columns:

Politics
Economics
Ruling Elite
Society
Basic

This screenie doesn't display the Talent SE factor though, which was working but unused in vanilla SMAC.

So those are from SMAniaC then? Personally I'd just like to get some jotted down and go from there. Balancing is the most important thing, but I've always found it's easier to modify after the fact than agree beforehand and get nothing done.

Tonight and tomorrow I'm going to put civics into XML as well as alter the LH XML from Apolyton slightly so that starting techs and favorite civics won't cause endless errors upon first starting up a game, whenever we do. I'm borrowing button art from Roanoke because Gene did a great job on that.

woodelf said:

Tonight and tomorrow I'm going to put civics into XML as well as alter the LH XML from Apolyton slightly so that starting techs and favorite civics won't cause endless errors upon first starting up a game, whenever we do. I'm borrowing button art from Roanoke because Gene did a great job on that.

Click to expand...

I was just about to ask you if your version of the XML didn't have all those error messages, but I guess I don't have to now

Right now there is no version, but there will be soon.

Btw woodelf I'm interpreting Basic as the default civics.

Okay so I like the basic layout, but we could IMO add another category (or two), most obviously a Military doctrine.

Take a look at what I did in the progress thread. Now that something is down we can add, delete, or modify.

I suggest you decide on whether you'd want a "civics" system like Civ4 or a "social engineering" system like SMAC/X (edit: Or, of course, something entirely different.). This is aimed at game mechanics.

Both systems have negatives and positives.

The "civics" system is probably a lot easier to implement than the "social engineering" system.

If you'd like a mix of the two, you should decide which system should be used to decide the general structure. I think this is important because of the game mechanics. Don't go with "a bit of both"; rather use "Civ4 with a touch of SMAC/X" or "SMAC/X with a touch of Civ4".

Personally, I like the "social engineering" system... but with a touch of "civics" it could hold the potential to become far superior to both SMAC/X and Civ4!

Also, "civics" is a popular topic often resulting in nonsense. Hence, I advise you to handle this issue (even when brainstorming) more carefully than almost any other issue.

I prefer Social Engineering as well. I used mostly Maniac's stuff with a few from Roanoke in my initial attempt. Everything open to discussion and extensive modification.

What's the difference between civics and social engineering?

Maniac said:

What's the difference between civics and social engineering?

Click to expand...

"Social Engineering" is based on a set of fixed parameters (with values ranging from, perhaps, -10 to 10). These parameters acts as a fundamental design concept.

"Civics" do not need fixed parameters nor a value range. Rather it is a flexible system that can be freely and radically modified without directly affecting other design concepts.

Does this answer your question?

After some thought I think of Civics columns in CivIV as simply picking the best choice with no real negatives. All 5 or more choices will help you out (for the most part), but the SE in SMAC/X was all about balance and juggling the best combination to benefit your faction. In CivIV you can switch civics the moment you get a new one, but I remember in SMAC that just getting a terrific SE choice didn't mean an immediate change because you needed another one to balance out the negative part of the new SE. It's been a while since I had to think about it, but that's what I recall the most as to their differences. It was almost like you got a net total of +1 with each SE, either from +2 Prod, +1 science, and -2 growth or +2 X, +1 Y, and -2 Z. The trick was to find another SE that brought Z up (if you wanted), but didn't lower anything else too far. Good fun!

Now I'm actually excited to try and balance them out. Lots of new parameters to play with.

Is this sort of the right track Rubin? Want to help me out?

woodelf said:

After some thought I think of Civics columns in CivIV as simply picking the best choice with no real negatives. All 5 or more choices will help you out (for the most part), but the SE in SMAC/X was all about balance and juggling the best combination to benefit your faction. In CivIV you can switch civics the moment you get a new one, but I remember in SMAC that just getting a terrific SE choice didn't mean an immediate change because you needed another one to balance out the negative part of the new SE. It's been a while since I had to think about it, but that's what I recall the most as to their differences. It was almost like you got a net total of +1 with each SE, either from +2 Prod, +1 science, and -2 growth or +2 X, +1 Y, and -2 Z. The trick was to find another SE that brought Z up (if you wanted), but didn't lower anything else too far. Good fun!

Now I'm actually excited to try and balance them out. Lots of new parameters to play with.

Is this sort of the right track Rubin? Want to help me out?

Click to expand...

Sort of, yes. You are only missing that the parameters go beyond the Social Engineering table. This is rather important because otherwise it is easier to use "civics" and simply balance these to fit the "net total of +1" result.

If you want Social Engineering I can help. For plain "civics" I may not be of much use.

See my new thread. I want help!!! I think this is super important. Help me see the going beyond the SE table.

Rubin said:

"Social Engineering" is based on a set of fixed parameters (with values ranging from, perhaps, -10 to 10). These parameters acts as a fundamental design concept.

"Civics" do not need fixed parameters nor a value range. Rather it is a flexible system that can be freely and radically modified without directly affecting other design concepts.

Does this answer your question?

Click to expand...

Yes. It's what I thought. But then I don't see what's the advantage of social engineering. You're just tying different civics effects together in one parameter, calling it a SE factor. But doesn't that just reduce your flexibility in making interesting civics?