ALC Game #25 Pre-Game Show: Playing as the Celts/Boudica

Whoa, wait a second.

You get the 50% retreat in *all* terrains?

That's huge. Really huge. It moves the UU and UB from "pretty lame" to "potentially awesome".


Waldo

That would mean all GWs (and all Dun-produced units as well) are just 1 xp away from having a 50% retreat chance against everything.

That's a potential game-changer. You get a stack of 8 or 10 of these guys and they can take out almost any early or classical enemy city *without seige weapons*. The fact that they'll be zooming in at double speed wherever there are hills is just gravy.

I think you'd probably want a mix of some CR-line promotions in your stack, for finishing the defenders after your "suicide" units have softened them. Calculating the ideal mix should be a fun challenge.

Geez, and it even fits the whole historic Celtic "naked tattooed berserker" thing. Sweet.


Waldo

And while settling GGs probably makes a lot of sense, pause to consider that a GG on a barrack-bred GW gives you Guerrilla 3, Combat 1, and three other promotions. Make one of them the "extra 30% retreat chance" promo and you have a melee unit that retreats 80% of the time. That almost seems worth a GG right there.

Also, you should be able to disconnect enemy metals and other resources pretty much at will.


Waldo

Wait, does withdrawal work what you're defending?

madscientist said:

Some comments on ability to get Stonehenge.

1) Boudica starts with no food techs, and only 1 military within one tech, the ever popular archery.
2) Stonehenge costs hammers and how to get them? Mining/BW means no food if your going to chop it out.
3) With slow growth, the charismatic trait is going to useless, why put Lady B in the hole so early.
4) Immortal means Stonehenge likely needs to be built by 2000 BC, preferably 2500 BC. I just don't see it unless Sis pops a needed tech or two from huts.

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Quoted for truth.

I vote against rigging the game by playing highlands or any similar map setup. It makes for a much more educational and entertaining game to utilize the advantages on a much more common map, in my opinion.

NoDot said:

Wait, does withdrawal work what you're defending?

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No, only when attacking. It wouldn't really work well otherwise, you'd attack a jerk and then kill them but they'd still be there and you'd have to attack again and dang that'd suck.

Getting West Point is actually EASIEST for Boudica.

Sisiutil, I'd recommend using a map with low sea level again to increase your chances of a modern war with LOTS of promotions.

Stonehenge isn't hard to get at all on immortal. After your first warrior, you can build it while growing. The question is the tradeoff.

Wow, I actually get to post at the start of one of these things.

Anyways, here's my thoughts on Boadica of the Celts

1) With the Charismatic trait, this is one of those rare cases where it might be worthwhile trying for Stonehenge. When you get a Great Prophet, bulb theology for your highly trained Gallic Warriors.

2) Especially on Immortal, I wouldn't go for an early religion. Wait until someone builds a nice, fat, juicy shrine for you. Research your worker techs first, including bronze working. If you want a religion, try for either Judaism or Christianity. At any rate, plan on burning a great prophet for Theocracy, which is boon for Boudica.

3) Once the basics are out of the way, research iron working and construction.

4) While Boadica has one of the best trait combinations for warmongering, she is one warmonger who should bide her time. I'd concentrate on REXing first, that way you have your choice of victims. I'd wait until you have catapults. Once you have a stack of level 3 catapults and Gallic Warriors, with a few axemen and spearmen for support. Pick a fight with your neighbor, preferably the one that just built a shrine for you.

5) I've seen quite a bit of dissing the Celts unique unit, especially their ability to get Guerrilla III. I personally don't think they're looking at it quite right. Yes, City Raider II is more likely to win, but with GIII you have longer odds which yields more XP, without increasing your losses thanks to that 50% withdrawal chance. If you can produce GIII thanks to theocracy + barracks, they're only a single victory away from level 4 and CRI. Plus you'll get your great general sooner. Once you've got that Great General, you can give newer ones more traditional promotions.

5) Another advantage of the Charismatic trait: Barracks + settled Great General + Theocracy + Vassalage = Level 4 troops. IMO, with the Charismatic trait, you're better off settling your first GG in your heroic epic city, as opposed to the traditional MASH unit.

As for map type... I've fallen in love with shuffle. You never know what you're going to get, and Boadica performs well on any style map... except perhaps Archipelago.

The extra civs on a standard map increase the chances of having a near neighbour and pretty much gurantee a non-isolated start.

Sisiutil's games tend to feature an axe rush, followed by a hole economically and then take down the next nearest neighbour after which victory is assured. Difficulties only seem to emerge, when there is no near neighbour to rush or one isn't rushed. Gallic Warriors only need copper so they can be built with the axemen.

Theocracy is only of use, if you have a state religion and founding your own can have negative consequences should your neighbour have a different one. Getting to 6-8 cities early with courthouses (and the FP) would ensure that Sisiutil's economy does not suffer as a result. In previous games, only the fact that few units are lost keeps the power rating high enough to deter attack whilst the economy gets fixed.I'd like to see Duns builts in every city and a horde of gallic warriors backed by catapults descend on Rome ...

If you do get Stonehenge, I strongly suggest NOT to bulb Theology...rather, do something that was done in the previous ALC, which is to use the Great Prophet on a shrine.

Assuming you get Stonehenge, you can build a Library to run scientists and pop a Great Scientist or Great Prophet. Depending on which one you get first, here is what you can do: If it's a Great Scientist, then bulb Philosophy to found Taoism. If it's a Great Prophet, then use it to bulb Philosophy or settle it.

However, if by chance you pop a Great Scientist first, and then a Great Prophet, then you can first found Taoism and then build a Taoist shrine. The gold you gain from the shrine will be more needed this time because you don't have Organized to cut costs.

In this case I think that using the first great person to bulb Philosophy (and found Taoism) is a better move than using the first great person (assuming it is a GS) to build an Academy, because what you want to avoid here is popping a GS followed by a GP. If you use the GS to found Taoism in this case, then you can use the GP to build a Taoist shrine.

Scarredroman said:

Theocracy is only of use, if you have a state religion and founding your own can have negative consequences should your neighbour have a different one.

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Unless you're isolated (in which case you don't have anyone to invade), it is very rare that none of your neighbors will found a religion, or not have a nearby religion spread to you.

If that does happen, and you are planning on bulbing Theology, then you're likely to found either Judaism or Christianity. And if all your plans fail... then you can do it the old fashioned way.

iamnleth said:

Quoted for truth.

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Disagree. Stonehenge requires only one tech, Mysticism. It's available right away and it's cheap. And it gives happiness far into the midgame when caps are an issue.

Getting it on Immortal is a challenge, no question. But further discussion depends on his start.


Waldo

Also, Stonehenge -> Great Prophet -> bulb Theology, which is a pretty key tech for our killer redhead.


Waldo

It's not difficult to get Stonehenge on any level that you start with Mysticism since the AI doesn't get production bonuses on wonders and are not as good at rushing wonders as human players.
The thing is you could have built a couple of settlers, workers or warriors and got that sweet spot and worked that gold etc instead.

I started a Boudica game this morning, gallic warriors with guerilla 3 are nice. the 50% withdrawal saved many losses and get high promo units quickly.

Scarredroman said:

The extra civs on a standard map increase the chances of having a near neighbour and pretty much gurantee a non-isolated start.

Sisiutil's games tend to feature an axe rush, followed by a hole economically and then take down the next nearest neighbour after which victory is assured. Difficulties only seem to emerge, when there is no near neighbour to rush or one isn't rushed. Gallic Warriors only need copper so they can be built with the axemen.

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This is true. What I was hoping for was another civ on perhaps a different continent with a HUGE army (Kublai Khan would be a good AI for this) so we could see a modern war.

DMOC said:

This is true. What I was hoping for was another civ on perhaps a different continent with a HUGE army (Kublai Khan would be a good AI for this) so we could see a modern war.

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That is what bothers me about the new lower capitulation thresholds. I miss the days of finding Shaka with an immense empire cranking gobs of troops

You will probably not find him as often as before, but he's still there. In my last finished game he vassalized a whole continent (3 AIs) and had almost twice my strength even after I had conquered my own continent.

Scarredroman said:

I'd like to see Duns builts in every city and a horde of gallic warriors backed by catapults descend on Rome ...

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Someone correct my history, but I think Brennus did this in 390 or thereabouts, sans catapults.

Mark (returning to lurker status)