Let's discuss balance and possible fixes

hmmm, I really like piety in general and already think it can be powerful; but it is frustrating to invest in it and then have to sacrifice culture. I find that though you might lose in founding a religion if you take it and someone not investing gets lucky, but it always guarantees one of the first enhancements due to the extra faith from shrines and temples. This belief is VERY powerful if you are settling at the same time. I can see the logic in switching the prophet (just for progression's sake, though this makes enhancing even easier). I think a very minor culture change and maybe a way to get an extra 1 fpt in the beginning is probably fine for balancing. I like the things that Acken discussed above, they seem minor and don't swing the tree to overpowered. Adding too much extra faith/happiness/culture to shrines will be OP as in a religious game I build them everywhere and tend to go wide.

I agree heartily that SOMETHING cultural should be in there, simply because piety should not be forced to waste one of its pantheon on the weak cultural picks--though if you get it, the +1 culture per shrine is my favorite. It's true that you typically get a culture source from a building belief or the temple-buffing belief, but these come so far down the road the religious race is over. A little something early is just what is needed and adding a tad to the palace seems a good solution.

I currently only put 1 culture on shrine and give everyone a base culture of 2 per turn instead of 1 (in the palace). This makes the begining of Piety as smooth as the others in my experience and I really really like the current beginning. I have switched reformation and the finisher. Give piety a bit of a faster enhancement rather than a reformation which is rarely useful at that point. Note that it seems a very good idea to make a quick settler at pop 2 or 3 with these.

I currently also put 1 culture on temple in the last policy but I wonder if it's too much since I'm begining to aim for Piety really aiming at poping great prophet (which when turned into shrine increase culture already), see following paragraph.

Now on to the serious deal. I have also reworked Religious Tolerance. I'm trying to make a policy that gives a very strong incentive for a piety player to have a good faith and make prophet expand religion etc. Right now the policy gives you 1Hammer in the capital per follower of your religion every time a great prophet is born (as a boost, not permanent of course ^^). In my 2 games with it so far I find it a pretty interesting mechanic. It's rather weak at the start (will give very little) but as the game progresses it starts to make prophet into mini engineers. Over the course of a normal game of 270Turns you won't produce that many prophets I believe (need testing) and it forces you to really weight in whether you want a prophet for the boost now or if you wait or if you want to spread (for stronger prophets) or a site for more prophets. It may also make prophet spawning after industrial, more likely. If it's too strong it will be changed or nerfed down anyway, I need more tests on it. But quick calculations don't make it too crazy comparing it to other options.

This is where I want a few testers if some people are interested. If you want to make a few games using the current new mechanics please send me a PM, I'll give you the files. I'll ask you to make a game at Emperor, Immortal or Deity, to give me your situation at turn 100, 150 and 200 and a few comments on how you think it goes.

Acken said:

To sum up, proposed changes I'm very confident about:
General
Aqueduct now cost 70 (down from 100). Gold cost is unchanged
Policies Liberty
Meritocracy now reduces unhappiness by 10% (up from 5%).
Representation now also reduces the build time of Colosseum by half.
Finisher now gives a truly free great person.

Additional proposal I'd wish people input:
Monuments and Shrines no longer cost maintenance.
+2 from either Opener, Republic or Collective Rule.

...

Piety Policies
Opener now increases faith by 1 in the capital
Organized Religion now increases culture by 1 from shrines
Religious Tolerance now increases the culture output of Temple by 1

Click to expand...

Re: Aqueducts... This may be more balanced, but I feel like it takes away from the flavor of the trees if you have them both explicitly boost aqueducts. Also, it doesn't address the bigger advantage of Tradition, which isn't actually the fact that aqueducts are free and instantly built the moment you finish tradition... (although that's extremely powerful...)

The bigger advantage is that you can skip Engineering (and therefore Construction on Emperor or below) and beeline Education, getting you there about 10 turns earlier. If it weren't for this, Liberty starts could build aqueducts starting on roughly ~t80 while teching towards Education. And with the bonus production, it would go fast. But, having to choose between early education and aqueducts is a big problem, IMHO.

I'm not sure what a better solution would be, but I think the answer is: Aqueducts shouldn't get built for Tradition until you tech Engineering.

This would be a nerf to Tradition, but I believe it's necessary. Because that nerfs Tradition, I don't think there's any need to provide additional boost to Liberty regarding aqueducts. Liberty already gets +5% to EVERY building & wonder, monument/granary/library/aqueduct/university/etc... which I think, in the long run, makes up for the free monuments and aqueducts.

Re: Meritocracy... I think -10% unhappiness is a good idea, but it doesn't address the advantage that Tradition has on high difficulty levels. Monarchy gives an immediate +3 happiness when you get it. Meritocracy gives hardly *any* bonus when you get it. This delays expansion, which is counter-intuitive to Liberty. I would instead add an additional +1 that does *not* require a city connection. (So +2 total w/ city connection) Or, maybe as was previously mentioned, a flat additional bonus upon taking the policy of +2 happiness. (I think +3 would be too much)

Re: fast-build coliseums... I think Liberty's production advantages are fine as is.

Re: Truly free great person... I'm torn. I kind of like the dilemma this creates. However, Great Prophets chosen this way should not affect GS/GE/GM points! That fix alone would make it more useful IMHO. I'm not opposed to the idea of making it truly free, but I also don't see the value in improving one of the best things about the tree. I'd rather see changes that shore up weaknesses.

I truly believe the areas of weaknesses most in need of change in Liberty are happiness and science. So, I continue to advocate reducing the science penalty to 3% with the closer. It's a safe way to make Liberty better IMHO. But, in general, I find Liberty quite strong as is. If they nerfed repairing improvements in enemy territory, then I would say that it needs a slight additional boost. Perhaps a slight reduction in maintenance cost for roads and non-military units? With huge sprawling empires, all those workers and roads become a heavy burden.

Re: Piety...

+1 faith/turn from the Piety opener: This is nice, and solves a lot of the problems with Piety, but one of the big issues is that the *opener* doesn't give culture. Assuming you don't build a monument, with Tradition, you get your first policy on t25 and your second on t33. With Liberty, t25->t45. With Piety, t25->t55. If you build scout/monument, it tends to be more like this: Tradition t17->22, Liberty: t17->25, Piety, t17->t27. But, with Piety, you want to build scout/shrine.

So, I think the *opener* should also give +1 culture from shrines. This would make it less of a compromise to build a shrine before a monument, and you'd get that second policy a few turns faster. (I estimate t33, as compared to t27 if you'd built a monument and t55 if you built neither)

Also, Mandate of Heaven should give a pantheon if you don't already have one. (In addition to what it already gives)

This would create a nice dilemma. Go for bonus faith production or go for a guaranteed pantheon immediately?

This is needed IMHO because Mandate of Heaven, for a 2nd policy, is terrible. It's usually not useful until t80 after you found a religion and build up 160 additional faith. And frankly, even then you often want to extend religion or use a prophet to spread it. So, Mandate of Heaven is a 2nd policy that is not useful until roughly t100. Compare that to Liberty or Tradition, where there are multiple immediately useful 2nd policy choices. And, you'd be forcing a player to make an interesting choice. (A choice which wouldn't come until roughly t30 anyway, so it's not too uber to get that free pantheon IMHO)

This doesn't address the other issues. Piety only has happiness if you invest beliefs in happiness, which isn't fair because someone who founds a religion with Tradition doesn't need to make that sacrifice. Piety only has growth if you invest beliefs, and the same unfairness applies. And the competition for Jesuit Education makes the only science bonus unreliable. One solution, probably beyond the scope of this mod, would be to break down the pantheons into sub-categories (faith, happiness, culture, misc) and allow a Piety player to choose a second pantheon free with Mandate of Heaven, but not from the same category. So, one faith + one culture, or one faith + one happiness. Also, with that second pantheon one could perhaps reuse any pantheon already taken. I think this would allow a player to boost their growth, culture or happiness as needed for their particular strategy. I would nuke the "get the pantheon of the second most popular religion" part of Religious Tolerance though, and replace it with something else. I think if you open Piety, a religion should be almost guaranteed, and perhaps Religious Tolerance could be re-envisioned as a policy that allows you to pick an existing religion (of the civs known to you) as your "secondary" religion, if you missed out on one. You wouldn't be considered the founder, but you would get all non-founder beliefs, immediately, in your capital, including the ability to spawn prophets/missionaries. Thus, opening Piety wouldn't be a waste on Deity in those games when you don't found a religion in time. If this were a random roll and not a choice, it wouldn't be too hard to mod, because it would just be as if a prophet had spread religion to that city. Of course, I'm not sure what that belief would give if you HAD founded a religion though.

Ultimately, Piety needs so much work it's almost beyond the scope of a mod. And, since I'm competitive by nature, I only play HOF games, so I'll never be able to take advantage of such a mod.

Hello Cromagnus and thank you for sharing.

Cromagnus said:

Re: Aqueducts...

Spoiler :

This may be more balanced, but I feel like it takes away from the flavor of the trees if you have them both explicitly boost aqueducts. Also, it doesn't address the bigger advantage of Tradition, which isn't actually the fact that aqueducts are free and instantly built the moment you finish tradition... (although that's extremely powerful...)

The bigger advantage is that you can skip Engineering (and therefore Construction on Emperor or below) and beeline Education, getting you there about 10 turns earlier. If it weren't for this, Liberty starts could build aqueducts starting on roughly ~t80 while teching towards Education. And with the bonus production, it would go fast. But, having to choose between early education and aqueducts is a big problem, IMHO

I'm not sure what a better solution would be, but I think the answer is: Aqueducts shouldn't get built for Tradition until you tech Engineering.

This would be a nerf to Tradition, but I believe it's necessary. Because that nerfs Tradition, I don't think there's any need to provide additional boost to Liberty regarding aqueducts. Liberty already gets +5% to EVERY building & wonder, monument/granary/library/aqueduct/university/etc... which I think, in the long run, makes up for the free monuments and aqueducts.

Click to expand...

.

I agree but I don't really have a solution right now besides making the tech cheaper. The detour though may not be that big. The idea would be that before Tradition growth kicks in, a wider player can have a slight advantage in science to make that detour even less of a burden.

Re: Meritocracy...

Spoiler :

I think -10% unhappiness is a good idea, but it doesn't address the advantage that Tradition has on high difficulty levels. Monarchy gives an immediate +3 happiness when you get it. Meritocracy gives hardly *any* bonus when you get it. This delays expansion, which is counter-intuitive to Liberty. I would instead add an additional +1 that does *not* require a city connection. (So +2 total w/ city connection) Or, maybe as was previously mentioned, a flat additional bonus upon taking the policy of +2 happiness. (I think +3 would be too much)

Re: fast-build coliseums... I think Liberty's production advantages are fine as is.

Click to expand...

Well obviously if it gets even more happy, faster coliseums aren't needed. I'll keep the +2 happi in the opener feels in line with other oponer having more than just culture.

Re: Truly free great person...

Spoiler :

I'm torn. I kind of like the dilemma this creates. However, Great Prophets chosen this way should not affect GS/GE/GM points! That fix alone would make it more useful IMHO. I'm not opposed to the idea of making it truly free, but I also don't see the value in improving one of the best things about the tree. I'd rather see changes that shore up weaknesses.

I truly believe the areas of weaknesses most in need of change in Liberty are happiness and science. So, I continue to advocate reducing the science penalty to 3% with the closer. It's a safe way to make Liberty better IMHO. But, in general, I find Liberty quite strong as is. If they nerfed repairing improvements in enemy territory, then I would say that it needs a slight additional boost. Perhaps a slight reduction in maintenance cost for roads and non-military units? With huge sprawling empires, all those workers and roads become a heavy burden.

Click to expand...

I understand what you mean and I wouldn't claim it's a much needed boost to the finisher. I just think it's... a boost and since it makes things a little more intuitive I believe it's a good idea.

Yeah the lesser tech penalty was an option. Right now however I don't know how to do it elegantly mod wise.

Re: Piety...

+1 faith/turn from the Piety opener

Spoiler :

: This is nice, and solves a lot of the problems with Piety, but one of the big issues is that the *opener* doesn't give culture. Assuming you don't build a monument, with Tradition, you get your first policy on t25 and your second on t33. With Liberty, t25->t45. With Piety, t25->t55. If you build scout/monument, it tends to be more like this: Tradition t17->22, Liberty: t17->25, Piety, t17->t27. But, with Piety, you want to build scout/shrine.

So, I think the *opener* should also give +1 culture from shrines. This would make it less of a compromise to build a shrine before a monument, and you'd get that second policy a few turns faster. (I estimate t33, as compared to t27 if you'd built a monument and t55 if you built neither)

Click to expand...

Yes. Or the other option that I've tested was to make the palace a +2 culture building, rather than +1 (and probably nerfing culture ruin in the process). This makes the first policy of piety (and other trees) available around the same time you finish your shrine which seems good. I'm just wondering if it makes the opener come too soon though, in which case I'd have to rely on a +1c in the opener and have to do the same with honor.

Also, Mandate of Heaven should give a pantheon if you don't already have one. (In

addition to what it already gives)

This would create a nice dilemma. Go for bonus faith production or go for a guaranteed pantheon immediately?

Click to expand...

With a quick Organized religion AND the +1 in the opener, you are already guaranteed a pantheon. But I could see the point in having the pantheon of your choosing immediately.

This is needed IMHO because Mandate of Heaven, for a 2nd policy, is terrible. It's usually not useful until t80 after you found a religion and build up 160 additional faith. And frankly, even then you often want to extend religion or use a prophet to spread it. So, Mandate of Heaven is a 2nd policy that is not useful until roughly t100. Compare that to Liberty or Tradition, where there are multiple immediately useful 2nd policy choices. And, you'd be forcing a player to make an interesting choice. (A choice which wouldn't come until roughly t30 anyway, so it's not too uber to get that free pantheon IMHO)

Click to expand...

The bonus would still be useless as a 2nd policy though since you probably already have your pantheon. So maybe a flat faith income.

This doesn't address the other issues. Piety only has happiness if you invest beliefs in happiness, which isn't fair because someone who founds a religion with Tradition doesn't need to make that sacrifice. Piety only has growth if you invest beliefs, and the same unfairness applies.

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That is something I agree with and have discussed in the last pages yes.

And the competition for Jesuit Education makes the only science bonus unreliable. One solution, probably beyond the scope of this mod, would be to break down the pantheons into sub-categories (faith, happiness, culture, misc) and allow a Piety player to choose a second pantheon free with Mandate of Heaven, but not from the same category. So, one faith + one culture, or one faith + one happiness. Also, with that second pantheon one could perhaps reuse any pantheon already taken.

Click to expand...

Yes beyond my scope.

I think this would allow a player to boost their growth, culture or happiness as needed for their particular strategy. I would nuke the "get the pantheon of the second most popular religion" part of Religious Tolerance though, and replace it with something else. I think if you open Piety, a religion should be almost guaranteed, and perhaps Religious Tolerance could be re-envisioned as a policy that allows you to pick an existing religion (of the civs known to you) as your "secondary" religion, if you missed out on one. You wouldn't be considered the founder, but you would get all non-founder beliefs, immediately, in your capital, including the ability to spawn prophets/missionaries. Thus, opening Piety wouldn't be a waste on Deity in those games when you don't found a religion in time. If this were a random roll and not a choice, it wouldn't be too hard to mod, because it would just be as if a prophet had spread religion to that city. Of course, I'm not sure what that belief would give if you HAD founded a religion though.

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In my experience the few buffs I've already made guarantee a Religion on Deity. Unless obviously you're bad I guess. I've tested it 3 times, without a good faith pantheon and I always enhance before T70. That's usually enough in Deity to be 3rd or 4th religion and I was generally the 2nd to Enhance. That's a lot better than the usual deal . Add a flat 20ish faith from mandate and it's even easier. Add a good faith pantheon and you will be 1st or 2nd.

Your option is beyond my scope but I'm already working in trying to tie the religious tolerant policy to how good your religion is. Something that depends on how much faith you produce and how good your religion is spread. For example I've thought about giving a bonus everytime a GP is born, bonus which may depend on how much followers you have.

Another project is simply to add interesting Reformation beliefs.

Ultimately, Piety needs so much work it's almost beyond the scope of a mod. And, since I'm competitive by nature, I only play HOF games, so I'll never be able to take advantage of such a mod.

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Sure but if you're willing to test it in your lost days I'd be glad to take some feedback

Acken, i understand the need to give more happiness to liberty , however the increase to meritocracy seems inappropriate to me, since its just a generic "hAppy from pop buff, which seems more in place in high pop tree (tradition).

in my mod i added happiness based on how expansive you got, with +o.4 happy per city and +1 happy per lux, rewarding the liberty player for expanding alot and settling new lux , and punishing him if he tries playing tall tradition style (since he gets less happiness from the tree that way)

i think libertys happy bonuses should be per-city and not per-pop.

I could spend every waking hour playing CIV and not have time to do all the things I want to do in it. VVV, Gauntlets, GoTM, random challenges, MP, mods, scenarios... I won't lie, if I get around to testing a mod again, it'll be my own "better deity" mod that I haven't even touched in like 6 months.