SANCTA Embassy & Intelligence

Indiansmoke · Feb 16, 2009

donsig said:
Giving us a better shot at the Great Library is a very good reason not to trade with SANCTA. But that doesn't mean we have to let them know right away that we aren't going to trade with them. I think it's important to string them along as long as possible. If we don't make like we're interested in trading with them that's the same as telling them up front we don't need them because we already have an alliance. And telling them that will only cement the SANCTA/Saturn alliance. We should not yet rule out trying to bring Saturn into a kill SANCTA alliance.

Why is telling them that we agree on the twilight deal that they proposed reveiling anything?

We can just tell them that the techs they offer do not interest us at this point as we don't need IW and meditation is a cheap tech for Alpha...what is so suspicious about that?

About bringing in Saturn, it is an interesting idea...but that enhances the concept of not delaying our workboat exploring...the sooner we meet them the better.

Indiansmoke · Feb 16, 2009

Kaleb said:
I still think we should avoid DoW until we at least have Alphabet. But whatever we do, we have 6 hours to end our current turn.

Can we do a quick straw poll in this thread for people to say what we do with our workboat?

I don't understand the point about waiting for Alpha to DoW? For all we know they could be teching sailing next and then will be able to kill our workboat..

cav scout · Feb 16, 2009

I think we should stall with our workboat treading water until we get Alphabet (which is coming up soon). We can go back and forth about a tech deal, making them think we are seriously interested in a trade but driving a hard bargain.

Then, once we get Alphabet we take a quick look at their techs (before they log on and look at ours) and send a note saying we are going with twilight because unfortunately they don't have the techs we need. We then DoW and transit with the workboat, continuing to give them the hope of a trade of some sort.

donsig · Feb 16, 2009

Indiansmoke said:
Why is telling them that we agree on the twilight deal that they proposed reveiling anything?

We can just tell them that the techs they offer do not interest us at this point as we don't need IW and meditation is a cheap tech for Alpha...what is so suspicious about that?

Why wouldn't we need iron working? That in itself would seem suspicious, wouldn't it? It means we are probably planning to get it somewhere else, like from another trading partner. Accepting the Way of Twilight doesn't in and of itself reveal anything. Not appearing to want to trade or ally with SANCTA reveals everything. And if we let SANCTA know we're already allied we rick pushing SANCTA and Saturn so close there will be no hope of prying them apart.

Barging through SANCTA's waters without saying much will only telegraph our intentions to be their enemy.

EDIT: Cross post with cav scout. I'm in agreement with his plan.

Sommerswerd · Feb 16, 2009

I agree with Cavscout and Donsig. We should AT LEAST pretend we want to trade.

Provolution · Feb 16, 2009

cav scout said:
I think we should stall with our workboat treading water until we get Alphabet (which is coming up soon). We can go back and forth about a tech deal, making them think we are seriously interested in a trade but driving a hard bargain.

Then, once we get Alphabet we take a quick look at their techs (before they log on and look at ours) and send a note saying we are going with twilight because unfortunately they don't have the techs we need. We then DoW and transit with the workboat, continuing to give them the hope of a trade of some sort.

Exactly what I proposed, a "Way of Sunrise"

cav scout · Feb 16, 2009

"Way of Sunrise"- I like it! We should definitely use that verbage with whatever diplomatic response we send to them.

Kaleb · Feb 17, 2009

Another point to make is we don't know if they have writing. If they don't then they can't trade get alpha from us anyhow.

They will know we are tech trading with cav soon enough, but we need to leave them with the impression we are just doing it for our own gain.

We could phrase it like this:

If you have nice juicy apples and you meet two men who wish to have some of your apples, which will you trade with? One has bananas and oranges to give you, the other just has bananas.

If you take bananas from the first man what does the 2nd man offer that you don't already have?

Not good for balanced diet. You soon become sick of apples and bananas, much better to have oranges as well, no?

So thank you for your kind offer, but we no want your bananas.

In my country, we very proud of our great leader. We want to make great, beautiful statue to honour her. But we don't know how to make things from metal.

Clever Ninja wise men know this secret. You tell it us and we tell you secret of word symbols? Maybe we tell you something else too...?

Provolution · Feb 17, 2009

I am against informing we are in trade negotiations, or even in agreement. Let us feign negotiations for now, get alphabet, read their techs, and declare war, as we are in a state of war, we sail through and trade our techs with our partners, when we come out of their borders, we can negotiate with what is left.

Kaleb · Feb 17, 2009

Provolution said:
I am against informing we are in trade negotiations, or even in agreement. Let us feign negotiations for now, get alphabet, read their techs, and declare war, as we are in a state of war, we sail through and trade our techs with our partners, when we come out of their borders, we can negotiate with what is left.

SANCTA will find out next turn that we are trading with Cav anyway, so we won't be telling them anything they don't know already or aren't a few hours away from finding out. They reason they offered us those techs is because they are techs we could get from Cav.

They know we don't have Med and PH or IW, if we say we aren't interested in a trade then they can surely deduce that we believe we will get those techs from elsewhere.

What SANCTA don't know is the extent to which we have a pact with Cav. If we wait until after we've passed through their borders they will see that our tech pact with Cav goes further than just an initial trade, and even that MS are involved in the trading too.

SANCTA may not be willing to trade with us at all, but they are in a hurry to get Alphabet for some reason (or it's just the only tech we have that they don't or can't get from Saturn). I'm fairly confident that if we are going to do any tech trading with SANCTA it will be on the first turn that we get Alphabet, under the guise that we are just trading to maximise our own benefit, and not doing as part of some anti-SANCTA alliance.

The big negative in this though, is that given SANCTA Alphabet may increase their chances of getting GL before us. Although if they already have writing they can either beat us to CoL or beat us to GL (not both hopefully!) if they choose to do so, the choice is theirs.

donsig · Feb 17, 2009

Given the concerns about the Great Lilbrary I'm leaning towards not doing any actual trading with SANCTA. It would be nice to hear Team Cav's take on trading with SANCTA, but it's kind of pointless asking Team Cav about things until we decide what we are going to say to SANCTA.

spliced revision of note to SANCTA said:
Greetings Ninja men,

We like multiple choice, very nice. But it give us tricky decision to make. In meantime our boat go in little circles looking for clams.

If you have nice juicy apples and you meet two men who wish to have some of your apples, which will you trade with? One has bananas and oranges to give you, the other just has bananas.

If you take bananas from the first man what does the 2nd man offer that you don't already have?

Not good for balanced diet. You soon become sick of apples and bananas, much better to have oranges as well, no?

So thank you for your kind offer, but we no want your bananas.

In my country, we very proud of our great leader. We want to make great, beautiful statue to honour her. But we don't know how to make things from metal.

Clever Ninja wise men know this secret. You tell it us and we tell you secret of word symbols? Maybe we tell you something else too...?

Right now, we don't have knowldege of this Alphabet way of which you speak. When do your wise men want do such a trade anyway?

We have knowledge of writing, but you need to have also if we give you alphabet, no? You clever and know how to write already?

Our ship sail far to reach you, maybe knowledge of proper ships can make benefit our two glorious nations. Trade good. Bring people close together and make good money for both.

In meantime, if we go way of twilight will it be long before we can make peace and continue our friend discussions about sharing knowledge?

donsig

Trouble with this note is it pretty much tells SANCTA we've met someone else. We really need to reach a decision here soon and tell SANCTA something.

Provolution · Feb 17, 2009

We tell them the "Way of the Sunrise", meaning bascially we want to shed a light on what is good for both parties, not only one. Trading with Team Cav as we sail through as I suggested, may or may not force them to trade us Metal Casting. The only way to get MC is negotiation by force. I stick to the proposed strategy:

We get Alphabet, investigate the techs of Team Sancta briefly, write these down. We then declare war, and sail through. During the sail through, we complete our prior arrangements with Team Cav and Team MS, and when we are through with all these trades, they will be desperate to be let in, or work hard to break us apart. Either way, Way of Sunrise will put them in a squeeze, which is good for us. As we have completed the arrangements we made, as we have sailed to the other side, we conclude peace, and then negotiate from strength, not ambiguity like now.

donsig · Feb 17, 2009

Yes, Provo, but you're not suggesting we tell SANCTA all that now are you? We really need to separate in our minds what we are going to actually do later (which should be in the tactics and strategy threads) from what we are going to say now which belongs in this thread. Provo, how would you tell SANCTA about your Way of the Sunrise?

Provolution · Feb 17, 2009

Ok, we can rewrite this a bit. We feign some disunity (as we have anyways), add some need for more comprehensive negotiations, a compromise including both ways, a more well informed agreement and so on. They will see our scores tick up, and this will drive the negotiations, to the point they either share metal casting, or isolate themselves. MC is a monopoly tech that cost them forests and opportunity cost, and they will not give it freely or cheaply, yet, they may cower to massive international pressure, such as a massive exchange of technologies we plan to do during our sail through.

"Way of the Sunrise"

Dear fellow Ninjas, we are now at a historical beginning of our relationship. We have the best of opportunities ahead of us, as we have millenniums ahead of us to develop in coprosperity. Yet, we suggest to enter a more well informed negotiation on how our relationship should proceed, and we need to get our entire people behind these. Within our nation, we have those that support the Way of the Daylight and the Way of the Twilight as well, and we have tried to bridge that gap through long internal talks on how to proceed. We suggest that we go along with the Day of the Sunrise, which is a sort of compromise solution between your original two proposals and a third approach. The amalgamation of these three approaches have ended up in a new way, Way of the Sunrise. The Way of the Sunrise allows our people to digest the magnitude of the beginning of our long term relation, and rushing into this either way will not be helpful to any of us, as trust requires time and effort to sustain and build upon.

We will humbly accept the border entry component of the Way of the Twilight, and politely suggest for you to prepare sailing for us, as we would like our future Open Borders Agreement to be meaningful and include opening our sea lanes not only for military transport, but also commercial trade to benefit both our great nations.
Upon sailing through Ninja Waters, we should prepare a comprehensive agreement including a non-aggression treaty, a longitude demilitarized zone, a joint technology development plan and finally institute a trade system where sailing is a foundation for bilateral trade. If you approve of this grander design for our negotiations, please let us know, and we can engage in more substantive talks on the remaining issues as part of the entire relationsship".

donsig · Feb 17, 2009

I've taken Provo's suggestion and edited and shortened it a bit. I left the border crossing choice up to SANCTA. I also added that we are interested in metal working. I signed it Provolution as a way of explaining how our style has changed.

Dear Ninjas,

We are now at a historical beginning of our relationship. We have the best of opportunities ahead of us, as we have millenniums ahead of us to develop in co-prosperity. Yet, we suggest we enter into a more well informed negotiation on how our relationship should proceed, and we need to get our entire people behind these. Within our nation, we have those that support the Way of the Daylight and those who support the Way of the Twilight. We have tried to bridge that gap through long internal talks on how to proceed. We suggest an amalgamation of these two approaches which we call the Way of the Sunrise. The Way of the Sunrise allows our peoples to digest the magnitude of the beginning of our long term relations.

The Way of the Sunrise humbly accepts either the border entry component of the Way of the Twilight or that of the Way of Daylight, your choice. It also includes technology trade negotiatons. We are intrigued by your technology trade proposal but we are really interested in metal working. The Way of the Sunrise also suggests a more comprehensive agreement including a non-aggression treaty, a longitude demilitarized zone, and finally a trade system where sailing is a foundation for bilateral trade. If you approve of this grander design for our negotiations, please let us know as we are anxious to sail on. We will pass your borders via an open borders agreement or a declaration of war, based upon your choice and we can engage in more substantive talks on the remaining issues as part of the entire relationship.

Provolution
Ambassador at large

So now we have two proposals, which we will call the Kaleb and Provo proposals. Please voice your choice for one of these (or write a new one) so we can send something to SANCTA today.

Provolution · Feb 17, 2009

Very good rewrite Donsig. This note gives us some leeway to adapt and improvise.

Sommerswerd · Feb 17, 2009

I like

's note better... It's funnier and both notes essentially offer the same thing. However, I like that Provo's note lets them choose between DoW and Open Borders. Maybe the two could be combined like this, edits in BOLD:

Greetings Ninja men,

We like multiple choice, very nice. But it give us tricky decision to make. In meantime our boat go in little circles looking for clams.

If you have nice juicy apples and you meet two men who wish to have some of your apples, which will you trade with? One has bananas and oranges to give you, the other just has bananas.

If you take bananas from the first man what does the 2nd man offer that you don't already have?

Not good for balanced diet. You soon become sick of apples and bananas, much better to have oranges as well, no?

So thank you for your kind offer, but we no want your bananas... unless maybe you have pears, yes? Pears so sweet and make good juice.

In my country, we very proud of our great leader. We want to make great, beautiful statue to honour her. But we don't know how to make things from metal.

Clever Ninja wise men know this secret. You tell it us and we tell you secret of word symbols? Maybe we tell you something else too...?

Right now, we don't have knowldege of this Alphabet way of which you speak. When do your wise men want do such a trade anyway?

We have knowledge of writing, but you need to have also if we give you alphabet, no? You clever and know how to write already?

Our ship sail far to reach you, maybe knowledge of proper ships can make benefit our two glorious nations. Trade good. Bring people close together and make good money for both.

In meantime, if we go way of twilight will it be long before we can make peace and continue our friend discussions about sharing knowledge?

We make good path between your two Ways of lights. We call it "Way of the Sunrise"

In "Way of Sunrise", Ninja men can pick whether we pass with yummy tasty Open Borders agreement or with nasty phoney declaration of war. We can make more deals later OK?

donsig

I don't think telling them that we know "a man with apples AND bananas" gives away anything since they will see our drastic score increase anyway and instantly know we have met others.

Lastly, we don't need alliance permission to enter Open Borders right? We just need alliance permission for a tech trade.

Provolution · Feb 17, 2009

I still stand behind the one I presented, due to the need to feign internal disagreement, and put a broader, clearer agenda on the table. Talking childish to them does not fly effectively, as I know these folks. We should also keep other talks low level, do not even mention the dilemma, let them see our score rises do the work and keep them in the dark.

cav scout · Feb 17, 2009

I like Kaleb's proposal the best. I don't agree with Sommers' last edit about "nasty phony war"- I think we DO want a phony war to give us a few turns of hidden techs from them.

I'm also opposed to any tech trade with S&S at all, no matter how tempting.

And talking "in character" is good because we can baffle them. The whole point of our exchange with SANCTA is to stall their discovery of our comprehensive alliance against them for as long as we can.

Provolution · Feb 17, 2009

I agree we need a phoney war to hide our tech developments during our trades, the timing is perfect for that, and should be used.

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