10 Fixes Needed for the Fall Patch

I've always found religion a bit annoying. You can really focus on it, and still not get the beliefs that you want to really make it effective for you. With that in mind, I think that piety could be altered to facilitate getting the religious beliefs you want by making them non-uniqe.

Change the opener so that anyone taking piety can choose any of the beliefs, even if another religion already has that belief. This way going piety guarantees you the most effective religion for your situation, as long as you focus enough on getting the faith to actually found the religion, which is really facilitated with the second SP that boosts faith from shrines and temples.

This would be a fantastic boost to the Byzantine UA too, and probably eliminate complaints with it.

Gort said:

Sorry, that's just plain wrong. Just googling for a second would give you mountains of evidence.

I would say they're too powerful, given that air-to-ground wasn't really a war-winner until far later on, but to say they didn't exist just shows a huge level of ignorance.

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Oh sure there were planes that dropped bombs, but they were very insignificant in damage compared to artillery, which was the real damage dealer of the era. Put in civ terms the "great war bomber" should probably deal 1 or 2 damage only to units of the same era. Right now they can kill a Great War infantry in a few bombing runs, which is completely insane

BroOfTheSun said:

50% reduction in build time for shrines and temples.
For early game, this is best used for getting shrines built in your cities. Temples are not needed early game to get a religion. Shrines in a couple of cities should be more than enough. Why would you build a temple that adds +2 maintenance when you are already starved for gold? The faster build times on temples is best used later, and is even better if you pick a belief that enhances the template (i.e. +2 happiness or culture to the temple). Faster temple build times means you get those faster.

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If you're not going to build temples, then the benefit of 3 half-cost shrines in 3 cities is 60 hammers, which is literally the same as spending an entire policy to chopdown three sets of trees. That's if you manage to get four cities early, a task Piety gives almost no help with at all. (It doesn't count in your capital since we've established that outside of a very early culture hut, you'll already have built your capital's shrine).

BroOfTheSun said:

+1 Faith per temple and shrine
This is a huge boost to faith production. A couple of cities with shrines almost ensure you get an early religion, and enhance much faster. All the added faith also means you can buy faith-bought buildings earlier (giving you their benefits earlier), buy missionaries faster (to spread your religion earlier), and help accumulate a larger faith mountain for late game. Piety is best used with wide empires, and this extra faith generation will add up.

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We've just established that you're not building early temples because you can't afford them. So for an entire policy point, you are getting, at best, an extra +4 faith per turn.

In contrast, a player with Dance of the Aurora and whatever that desert faith power is called is earning +1 Faith per tile, cost free, with no build time except for needing population to work the tile (favor: Tradition). The Celts are getting +1 or +2 per city from their forests. Ethiopia is getting faith from steles--placed in cities for free (favor: Tradition, which grants them completely for free). It quickly becomes evident that Piety is not at all suited for a serious religious game. That honor goes to combining Tradition (maybe Liberty) with all the various non-Piety ways to earn faith.

Ok, so, in some games you don't start with an easy desert or tundra is hard to find, and you're not next to a good natural wonder. But the fact remains that with 8 civs in a game, someone likely will. And that player has been handed the most of the benefits of the Piety tree except for the Reformation Belief without having to go down it (in fact having several good reasons not to go down it). Add to this the fact that Piety is all about the race in a way that neither Tradition or Liberty are--go down it and fail to get religion and you are screwed. So it's not even worth trying unless you are sure you will win something worthwhile. Because the fact remains that even if you just went Tradition and ignored Religion completely, you'd still end up with bonuses because unlike other mechanics most of the benefits of Religion are transferrable.

As for buying units, I already explained why this is a losing deal early on. You need those Faith points for your prophets to justify having taken Piety. You might be able to get to Hagia Sophia to get the prophet there, but Tradition would get you faster and give you a better chance of actually getting to build it. The discount policy provides a 20% discount on missionaries and buildings. Most of these at standard speed cost 200 Faith, the same cost as a Great Prophet. So you need to purchase 5 missionaries before you're caught up to where Tradition would have got you from the free prophet from Sophia. Add to this that by the time you actually complete your Policy tree, Tradition is likely an entire policy ahead of you. You are playing catch up with the Tradition player the whole time.



I'm not in the camp that thinks Piety is so awful that you should never use it, but as an early game tree it is 99% awful. The sheer number of abilities that do nothing for you when you first take them stands at approximately 4 out of 6.

isau said:

words...

I'm not in the camp that thinks Piety is so awful that you should never use it, but as an early game tree it is 99% awful. The sheer number of abilities that do nothing for you when you first take them stands at approximately 4 out of 6.

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Just change the opener and religious tolerance, every tree needs some crappy policies to balance out with the strength of their finishers.

1. Choosing piety grants you a pantheon immediately if you don't already have one, it addition to the 1/2 build time shrines and temples. This solves the problem where you need to have a shrine up before turn 25 to have a chance at any good pantheons. To be fair, it changes the 'build a shrine quick' to 'build a monument quick,' but at least in this case you're sacrificing tradition's bonuses for a pantheon. In addition, faith gifts from meeting city states should probably be reduced, nothing is worse than someone beating the Celts to a pantheon just because they ran into Jerusalem and Vatican City in the first 5 turns.

2. Re-work religious tolerance, instead it allows you to select any pantheon that has already been taken as a permanent bonus in all of your cities. This reduces the micro involved and prevents someone who snags desert folklore from ruining your start. They still got their faith benefits for 60+ more turns than you did, but it's not the end of the world.

NinjaGnat said:

Just change the opener and religious tolerance, every tree needs some crappy policies to balance out with the strength of their finishers.

1. Choosing piety grants you a pantheon immediately if you don't already have one, it addition to the 1/2 build time shrines and temples. This solves the problem where you need to have a shrine up before turn 25 to have a chance at any good pantheons. To be fair, it changes the 'build a shrine quick' to 'build a monument quick,' but at least in this case you're sacrificing tradition's bonuses for a pantheon. In addition, faith gifts from meeting city states should probably be reduced, nothing is worse than someone beating the Celts to a pantheon just because they ran into Jerusalem and Vatican City in the first 5 turns.

2. Re-work religious tolerance, instead it allows you to select any pantheon that has already been taken as a permanent bonus in all of your cities. This reduces the micro involved and prevents someone who snags desert folklore from ruining your start. They still got their faith benefits for 60+ more turns than you did, but it's not the end of the world.

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I think "immediate pantheon" is a little much, but +1 faith added to the opener would help. I would still never finish the tree out.

I just thought of a (relatively minor) change last night. Normally I only have sea trade routes (unless I build Petra), but my last game was on a pangaea so I had a mixture of land and sea routes. I usually go to the “Trade Overview” screen, click on the “Trade Routes Available” section, and sort by the highest gold incoming icon to maximize my routes. But since the sea routes generate so much more gold, I had to scroll down a while to get to the land ones.

So I thought it would be more helpful if the screen had little radio buttons at the top that said “Caravan”, “Cargo Ship”, and “All” which would allow you to filter the routes by which types you wanted to look at.

The problem with Piety is you can do a religious game with Tradition or Liberty instead and probably be better off overall due to the growth bonuses. My Faith generation mostly comes from the Religion itself or Wonders if I'm in MP or lower difficulties. The bonuses to the Shrine and Temple are okay, but something like 8 or 10 faith compared to to more then a hundred doesn't feel like it's worth the social policy costs. Even in the early game if I'm relying on Shrines and Temples to found a religion instead of a Pantheon I'm going to be behind someone who has a decent Faith Pantheon. Basically the only things in the Piety tree that's worth it is the Reformation Belief assuming you get a good one and a free Great Prophet. There are some fantastic Reformation beliefs but frankly I'd rather have Liberty or Tradition.

I've done MP games starting with Piety just to try it out and the one with Desert Folklore easily outproduced me in Faith and thus religion, and the guy with Faith from Quarries seemed to match me and my petty Faith and Culture from my two Wine tiles. They were also way ahead in policies, city pop, and cities. Meanwhile I had a Reformation Belief of Jesuit Education. Great belief but it doesn't catch me up in growth. This is a huge contrast to me normally being the front-runner in my weekly MP games with friends when I go Tradition. Anecdotal evidence here, but at least to me it was a pretty big swing in my opinion on how bad Piety is.

Piety needs some tangible advantages early other then a minor boost to faith output. Culture is one way to do it, and honestly if you open Piety I'd think having the highest cultural output among all the openers would be appropriate considering the sacrifice in growth but that can be a matter of opinion. Then again I don't know how to balance this opener with the Liberty opener in that regard either without restricting it to the capitol. Which leads me to the idea of just having a capitol bonus for Piety, which I do like.

Honestly I wish the Piety tree were something like this now after reading the discussion although you should give it a grain of salt because I'm biased against Piety as it currently is:

Opener - Grants four Culture and three Faith in your holy city(s) or your capitol if there is none.
Organized Religion - Shrines and Temples produce one extra Faith and can be built in half the usual time.
Mandate of Heaven - 20% Discount on all Faith purchases and buildings purchased with Faith produce one additional Faith per turn.
Theocracy - Temples and Shrines cost no maintenance and instead produce one gold per turn. Holy Sites additionally produce four extra gold per turn. (Requires Organized Religion)
Religious Tolerance - Allows you to choose a second Pantheon, but you may only pick from previously chosen Pantheons. (Requires Organized Religion)
Reformation - If you have founded a Religion, you may choose a Reformation Belief. (Requires Religious Tolerance and Mandate of Heaven)
Finisher - Grants a free Great Prophet and Holy Sites produce an additional four Faith and Culture.

I'm sure those numbers are probably way too high and may even tackle the problems in the wrong way, but the lack of growth bonuses in the tree really irk me so I may overcompensate in other areas. The above mentioned change to Religious Tolerance (which was an awesome idea earlier in this thread) would help alleviate that slightly, but obviously it wouldn't compete with Tradition or Liberty on any level (nor should it). I would seriously consider opening Piety if it was the above to play a religious game, but I still get the feeling I'd be behind due to the lack of growth. In this case though there would be an extra five gold per city, a real boost to Faith generation early, and a second Pantheon, in addition to the Reformation belief so you don't feel fully screwed in comparison to Tradition or Liberty. They would still outgrow you, but you should be better off in terms of gold and faith per turn in a meaningful way.

I agree with you for 10, 5, 3. That those are necessary for the next patch. But some of the other more gamechanging mechanics would be nice, but aren't really "needed" fixes. Mine would be.
1. Fix Germany. I would say that Germany's UA is a needed fix over Denmark. I don't care if its just given another warmonger ability, we need a few european military powers.
Maybe Japan too.

Ayestes said:

Opener - Grants four Culture and three Faith in your holy city(s) or your capitol if there is none.
Organized Religion - Shrines and Temples produce one extra Faith and can be built in half the usual time.
Mandate of Heaven - 20% Discount on all Faith purchases and buildings purchased with Faith produce one additional Faith per turn.
Theocracy - Temples and Shrines cost no maintenance and instead produce one gold per turn. Holy Sites additionally produce four extra gold per turn. (Requires Organized Religion)
Religious Tolerance - Allows you to choose a second Pantheon, but you may only pick from previously chosen Pantheons. (Requires Organized Religion)
Reformation - If you have founded a Religion, you may choose a Reformation Belief. (Requires Religious Tolerance and Mandate of Heaven)
Finisher - Grants a free Great Prophet and Holy Sites produce an additional four Faith and Culture.

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I think this is overpowered, especially the opener. I'd say something more like this:

Opener - Shrines and Temples may be built in half the usual time, and produce +1.
Organized Religion - No change.
Mandate of Heaven - No change.
Theocracy - No change (but see Finisher).
Religious Tolerance - Your religion exerts +50% pressure on cities with a dominant religion other than yours.
Reformation - No change.
Finisher - A Great Prophet appears. Holy sites produce an additional 3. Great Prophets gain +2 and may spread religion an additional time.


The change to the opener gives some culture, but requires a investment unlike Tradition and Liberty, which keeps those two as the clear choices if not going for an early religion strategy.

The change to Religious Tolerance exists solely to punish players who found a religion but do not invest any policies into the Piety tree. It also makes Inquisitors more necessary.

The change to the Finisher is to encourage players to use Prophets to spread religion once (or twice if they have the Great Mosque), then bring Prophets home and settle them. Perhaps the "spread an additional time" may need to be replaced with "can build Holy Sites even with only one use left" to get that to happen though.

Ayestes said:

Opener - Grants four Culture and three Faith in your holy city(s) or your capitol if there is none.
Organized Religion - Shrines and Temples produce one extra Faith and can be built in half the usual time.
Mandate of Heaven - 20% Discount on all Faith purchases and buildings purchased with Faith produce one additional Faith per turn.
Theocracy - Temples and Shrines cost no maintenance and instead produce one gold per turn. Holy Sites additionally produce four extra gold per turn. (Requires Organized Religion)
Religious Tolerance - Allows you to choose a second Pantheon, but you may only pick from previously chosen Pantheons. (Requires Organized Religion)
Reformation - If you have founded a Religion, you may choose a Reformation Belief. (Requires Religious Tolerance and Mandate of Heaven)
Finisher - Grants a free Great Prophet and Holy Sites produce an additional four Faith and Culture.

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I love the direction you're proposing for Piety. I think that these are great ideas but agree with you that the numbers are probably a bit off. I'd tweak it a bit like this:

Opener - Grants three Culture and two Faith in your holy city(s) or your capitol if there is none.
Organized Religion - Shrines and Temples produce one extra Faith and can be built in half the usual time.
Mandate of Heaven - 20% Discount on all Faith purchases and buildings purchased with Faith produce one additional Faith per turn.
Theocracy - Temples and Shrines cost no maintenance. Holy Sites additionally produce three extra gold per turn. (Requires Organized Religion)
Religious Tolerance - Allows you to choose a second Pantheon, but you may only pick from previously chosen Pantheons. (Requires Organized Religion)
Reformation - If you have founded a Religion, you may choose a Reformation Belief. (Requires Religious Tolerance and Mandate of Heaven)
Finisher - Grants a free Great Prophet and Holy Sites produce an additional three Culture.

I didn't do any calculations, these are just my impressions of what would be balanced, haha. To offset the lack of growth, maybe the Finisher could also provide extra food per Holy Site.

Holy crap you've lost your mind. Your opener is strictly better than the Tradition opener in EVERY way.

I've listed a couple of different possible revisions to Piety in various threads. Here's what I'm feeling as a possibility at the moment though.



Opener: May trade Faith to other civilizations as if it were Gold. This can be used by either party as long as at least one of them has this policy. Sold Faith does not count toward Pantheons or Great Prophets.

(This one is for the real cynics and not as out of sync with history as it may sound at first).


Tier 1A: Purchases with Faith cost less. In addition, Faith purchases do not count against the Faith needed to generate Pantheons or Great Prophets (the total of Faith ever produced is used instead).*


*Or, Faith spent on buildings/units could simply never count againt generating pantheons/prophets even without this policy.


Tier 1B: Gain 1 Population in the Capital each time you advance your Faith (Pantheon, Founded, Enhanced, Reformed). (I suspect this sounds more powerful than it really is.)


Tier 1C: Build temples and shrines in 1/2 time. Each temple or shrine provides +1 Faith.


Tier 2: Gain 1 early/extra Spy or Diplomat.


Tier 3: Reformation belief.


Finisher: Your religion instantly spreads to all cities under your control that are not subject to a rival religion.

Peng Qi said:

I think this is overpowered, especially the opener. I'd say something more like this:

Opener - Shrines and Temples may be built in half the usual time, and produce +1.
Organized Religion - No change.
Mandate of Heaven - No change.
Theocracy - No change (but see Finisher).
Religious Tolerance - Your religion exerts +50% pressure on cities with a dominant religion other than yours.
Reformation - No change.
Finisher - A Great Prophet appears. Holy sites produce an additional 3. Great Prophets gain +2 and may spread religion an additional time.


The change to the opener gives some culture, but requires a investment unlike Tradition and Liberty, which keeps those two as the clear choices if not going for an early religion strategy.

The change to Religious Tolerance exists solely to punish players who found a religion but do not invest any policies into the Piety tree. It also makes Inquisitors more necessary.

The change to the Finisher is to encourage players to use Prophets to spread religion once (or twice if they have the Great Mosque), then bring Prophets home and settle them. Perhaps the "spread an additional time" may need to be replaced with "can build Holy Sites even with only one use left" to get that to happen though.

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I like this. Piety definitely needs culture in its own right, i.e. without having to go into tradition. I don't even see why Tradition has to be the cultural SP. Why not have Tradition for production, Liberty for expansion, Honor for war, and Piety for faith/religion? All of these would need some cultural bonus from their policies.

Peng Qi said:

Holy crap you've lost your mind. Your opener is strictly better than the Tradition opener in EVERY way.

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Considering the rest of the tree gives little growth bonus directly, I'm not sure what's wrong with an opener that's a bit better than tradition's.

I would prefer:
Opener: +half cost of shrines/temples + free shrine and temple in the capitol.
Organized religion: No change
mandate of heaven: +1 culture per shrine/temple and religious buildings.
Theocracy: +2 gold per shrine/temple.
Religious tolerance:+1 happy per shrine/temple
Reformation belief: no change.

Finisher: +3 culture and gold per holy site, 1 free prophet.

a tree you pick if you want to spam temples and shrines in Your empire to get some modest bonuses.
still the lack of Growth will really hurt compared to tradtion/Liberty but With these changes you should have a very good chance of founding a religion.
Also it might take longer to Complete this tree compared to the 3 others, but not as slow as it is now.

As for the fall patch i would like City states to protect there workers and starting spots to be better balanced and better combat Balance and better civ Balance. Everyone that Plays games will know that getting shoshone is allways better then getting America. in general some civs are worse then others, it would not be so bad if it was not such a huge difference.

I think we can find some parallels with the other two good starting trees (liberty and tradition) to make piety worthwhile:

Opener - You gain a free faith producing building in your first four cities. (like legalism, if you have shrines, you get temples - which also might make this policy worthwhile as a second tree, or as an "exploit" for steles maybe)
Organized Religion - +1 faith and culture for shrines and temples. (here we have the much needed culture boost)
Mandate of Heaven - No change, keep the 20% discount. No problem of having something truly unique in the tree
Theocracy - -5% unhappiness for citizens that follow your majority religion, +1 global happiness per city that follows your majority religion. (maybe a bit too similar to the liberty policy, but it really fits the name, and it will promote the use of inquisitors a bit)
Religious Tolerance - +1 local happiness per religion beyond the first in each of your cities.
Reformation - No change, but buff some of the weaker beliefs.
Finisher - no change, except add the +3 gold for holy sites back in as we took it away from Theocracy

It now has similar or even slightly better culture to liberty, slightly better happiness than liberty, a little bit of gold saving due to the free faith buildings, but no food or expansion benefits.

Birdism said:

I love the direction you're proposing for Piety. I think that these are great ideas but agree with you that the numbers are probably a bit off. I'd tweak it a bit like this:

Opener - Grants three Culture and two Faith in your holy city(s) or your capitol if there is none.
Organized Religion - Shrines and Temples produce one extra Faith and can be built in half the usual time.
Mandate of Heaven - 20% Discount on all Faith purchases and buildings purchased with Faith produce one additional Faith per turn.
Theocracy - Temples and Shrines cost no maintenance. Holy Sites additionally produce three extra gold per turn. (Requires Organized Religion)
Religious Tolerance - Allows you to choose a second Pantheon, but you may only pick from previously chosen Pantheons. (Requires Organized Religion)
Reformation - If you have founded a Religion, you may choose a Reformation Belief. (Requires Religious Tolerance and Mandate of Heaven)
Finisher - Grants a free Great Prophet and Holy Sites produce an additional three Culture.

I didn't do any calculations, these are just my impressions of what would be balanced, haha. To offset the lack of growth, maybe the Finisher could also provide extra food per Holy Site.

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These do seem much more reasonable I'll admit.

I'll weigh in and say I agree with Peng Qi's ideas most. Piety doesn't need a full out overhaul, but only some minor tweaks.

Peng Qi said:

Opener - Shrines and Temples may be built in half the usual time, and produce +1.
Organized Religion - No change.
Mandate of Heaven - No change.
Theocracy - No change (but see Finisher).
Religious Tolerance - Your religion exerts +50% pressure on cities with a dominant religion other than yours.
Reformation - No change.
Finisher - A Great Prophet appears. Holy sites produce an additional 3. Great Prophets gain +2 and may spread religion an additional time.

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The problem is with minor changes it'd still be a severe disadvantage to take Piety over Tradition or Liberty. It needs a major overhaul to even be considered since Growth bonuses are better then having a slightly stronger religion. In most cases you can do a better religious game with Tradition or Liberty then Piety since you are much stronger in many other areas and can leverage the religion more effectively.

Peng Qi said:

Holy crap you've lost your mind. Your opener is strictly better than the Tradition opener in EVERY way.

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The Tradition opener also has the border expansion bonus. No one really seems to care much about it though, like with Angkor Wat.

My vote is +2 faith and +2 culture, both boosted to +3 and moved to the Holy City when a religion is founded.

It's funny, I was playing around with a (modding) idea to remove Tradition entirely and put parts of it into the other ancient SPs. Moving the tradition opener to Piety was one of the thoughts floating around. Not that I'm saying Tradition should necessarily be removed from vanilla BNW.