what really bothers me about the "diplomacy" is the fact the AI keeps contradicting itself. I was Japan and met Russia, who was at odds with France. France had denounced me and Russia. Russia was friendly for a while then decided I was persona-non-grata because France had denounced me. Then France and Russia, two bitter enemies...make a research agreement....a few turns later they go to war. I give up trying to figure it out. And no one would trade with me. Not Germany or Iroquois, whom I liberated from French rule.
Denouncing: Like -or- Don't Like
- Thread starter Sparthage
- Start date
SpearMan153
Prince
I have a suspicion that the higher the level and the larger the map the less well diplomacy works.
So far I've only played on the smaller maps (up to standard) and only up to the middle levels and for those settings its been working pretty good for me. (my pc can't cope with anything bigger).
And yes I have had DOF for entire games.
My guess is that with the higher difficulty level the ai becomes less tolerant with everthing (wars, coveting thy neighbours ass, wonders, stealing city states). Which is supposed to add to the challenge of the level. But in practice just ruins the game.
On the larger maps you would get all those stacked denouncements adding up while on the smaller ones its not so much of an issue.
I also suspect that the majority of testing is also done for the standard settings.
So my question is for those that find the diplomacy stupid broken and those who are finding it ok to good what level and map size are you playing?
In my games I have developed a few rules of thumb:
- never kill a city state
- don't steal a city state from someone you want to stay friends with
- the ai is more likely to get upset if you build a city then if you conquer one
- I don't start a war unless someone is willing to pay me for it or if someone asks me to
- always give your friend whatever they want (havn't had any ridiculus requests yet)
So far I've only played on the smaller maps (up to standard) and only up to the middle levels and for those settings its been working pretty good for me. (my pc can't cope with anything bigger).
And yes I have had DOF for entire games.
My guess is that with the higher difficulty level the ai becomes less tolerant with everthing (wars, coveting thy neighbours ass, wonders, stealing city states). Which is supposed to add to the challenge of the level. But in practice just ruins the game.
On the larger maps you would get all those stacked denouncements adding up while on the smaller ones its not so much of an issue.
I also suspect that the majority of testing is also done for the standard settings.
So my question is for those that find the diplomacy stupid broken and those who are finding it ok to good what level and map size are you playing?
In my games I have developed a few rules of thumb:
- never kill a city state
- don't steal a city state from someone you want to stay friends with
- the ai is more likely to get upset if you build a city then if you conquer one
- I don't start a war unless someone is willing to pay me for it or if someone asks me to
- always give your friend whatever they want (havn't had any ridiculus requests yet)
Ddude97
King
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 761
I don't like this one and think its poor design, I can't take over the city state that declared war on me and attacked me? Doesn't make sense to me
I'm not sure about the truth of this one, taking over a city often gets you labeld as a "warmonger"
I don't understand why you would do this one, even when roleplaying I will take out my neighbor if necessary
Lucky you, I've had (and many others on this forum as well) my "friends" ask for the luxury I just connected and don't have any spare of so it'll put be into negatives in happiness or 75% of my treasury. With friends like these who needs enemies?
Why should it matter if someone asks you? Pays you I understand, but why is it ok if they ask? Did you know that it makes absolutely no difference to diplomacy? Saying no doesn't bother the asker, nor does saying yes make them happier.
In fact, allow me to share the story of my Aztec playthrough. Gandhi below me, Alex to the right, and Nappy above him. I'm next to Alex so I gear up for early war since that's how he rolls. Pump out some archers, lots of jags, and promote a few of those to swordsmen. But before Alex can DoW on me, Nappy comes to me and asks me to DoW on Alex. I ask him to give me 10 turns and begin moving my troops out. 10 turns end, are you in? Hell yes. This is no lip-service agreement, we fight side by side, literally, taking city after city until Alex is no more. But I can't help but notice, Nappy is friendly but for all the wrong reasons. No "you agreed to help us in war." No "you actually did help us in war. No nothing.
If it were Civ IV, he and I would have lived side by side like brothers for the rest of the game. I know it's not a real person, but I'd just feel guilty having such good relations with someone only to backstab them. But in V I know Nappy doesn't remember the past, how we fought like brothers. No, he didn't even realize it was happening while it was happening, and soon he'll just denounce me for expanding or being close to winning anyway. I dial him up. His smile says "welcome, friend," but his eyes show no hint of recognition. Like an Alzheimer's patient, he is. Again, I wouldn't have been able to bring myself to hurt him in IV. But this is V. I tell him I want his land. Then I erase his life. I feel nothing.
So yeah, that whole "I'll agree to help you for positive relations" attitude is a relic from IV that we must learn to leave behind. it means nothing here, the AI has no idea that you helped them.
And as for not seeing ridiculous demands, the first and really only time I made extensive use of DoFs, I was routinely asked for half or more of my gold. When you say no, negative diplo penalty. When you say yes, again, the AI has Alzheimer's when it comes to your good deeds. That's why I rarely make DoFs now.
NackteElfe
Chieftain
This might be a bit off topic: But do you know if there is way to check your resources when they ask questions like this? Out of the diplomacy screen you can't really see if the ai is asking for the last resource or of something you are well supplied with.
The denounce system can be quite silly.
For instance, you have a friend. They denounce you. Noone else ever did.
Look at their morivations to dislike you:
'A friend of yours denounced you' (or whatever the exact line is).
Well, he dislikes me because he dislikes me????
For instance, you have a friend. They denounce you. Noone else ever did.
Look at their morivations to dislike you:
'A friend of yours denounced you' (or whatever the exact line is).
Well, he dislikes me because he dislikes me????
jagdtigerciv
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2007
- Messages
- 468
It was Shafer's last implementation before he got the boot. In other words: a disaster.
voted yes.
it's by no means perfect but is a lot better than it was before the patch. for those saying that it is just a massive wave of denouncements from everyone that permanently trashes any hope of peace, well that is just plain wrong. you can have good relationships with a civ for a long time but you do need to pay attention to the diplomacy. in my last game there turned out being two major alliances, me + persia + france + China V Japan + USA + Arabs + Russia with Egypt and greece being left out a bit
it's by no means perfect but is a lot better than it was before the patch. for those saying that it is just a massive wave of denouncements from everyone that permanently trashes any hope of peace, well that is just plain wrong. you can have good relationships with a civ for a long time but you do need to pay attention to the diplomacy. in my last game there turned out being two major alliances, me + persia + france + China V Japan + USA + Arabs + Russia with Egypt and greece being left out a bit
It just seems like it's a system that they put in place in order to try to reduce the apparent randomness of AI,so as to at least give players a hint that the AI is about to go "nuts".
Fairly worthless. And the explanations given within the status (ie Friendly) are an even bigger indicator that the AI doesn't know what it's doing - because those explanations are just plain wtf.
Fairly worthless. And the explanations given within the status (ie Friendly) are an even bigger indicator that the AI doesn't know what it's doing - because those explanations are just plain wtf.
Generally I love it. It is simple, easy to follow, easy to use, and with a couple of exceptions, it works well.
1. Civs sometimes denounce others from turn 2-15. That is absurdly early. I suggest Firaxis put in a timer that 100% blocks likelihood of denouncing at the start, which then goes down 2% every turn until it is 0% by turn 50.
2. "Your friend has found a reason to denounce you!". This modifier is HARDCORE. For every friend who denounced you, they hate you by 25 points more. In comparison, breaking a promise for something to them causes 20 points of hate. Getting backstabbed for any reason easily leads to all friends backstabbing you, and since a few of them added together adds up to 75-100 points of hate, the whole world will denounce and hate you the most.
I removed this penalty and things are actually sane and nice. Friendships can last entire games, even with neighbors (if careful enough).
1. Civs sometimes denounce others from turn 2-15. That is absurdly early. I suggest Firaxis put in a timer that 100% blocks likelihood of denouncing at the start, which then goes down 2% every turn until it is 0% by turn 50.
2. "Your friend has found a reason to denounce you!". This modifier is HARDCORE. For every friend who denounced you, they hate you by 25 points more. In comparison, breaking a promise for something to them causes 20 points of hate. Getting backstabbed for any reason easily leads to all friends backstabbing you, and since a few of them added together adds up to 75-100 points of hate, the whole world will denounce and hate you the most.
I removed this penalty and things are actually sane and nice. Friendships can last entire games, even with neighbors (if careful enough).
I've just played a few games of CIV 5, but I find the entire diplomacy ruleset incomprehensible. I read the manual, I looked on line. Can't find anything that gives me any kind of a concept to follow in understanding how to play the diplomacy rules. It just seems that all the countries just pout all game.
moksheebs
Kuala Lumpur GDR
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 92
I hate denouncements.
Map's too small for each of my cities to grow a 5-hex range (maximum expanse of a city), and just a bit too close to my rivals, they come up with
's.
What do?
Giant death robots (mine) all over their yard.
If there is ever one thing I wish Firaxis have done right (yep, they're doing it wrong), it's the diplos. On an unrelated note, Firaxis didn't solve the problem regarding gold to CSes. Very deep into the game, the influence gained through goldgiving decreases, it eventually turns negative. So, in the future, CSes hate it when a civilisation gives them money. That is ridiculous.
Map's too small for each of my cities to grow a 5-hex range (maximum expanse of a city), and just a bit too close to my rivals, they come up with
's.What do?
Giant death robots (mine) all over their yard.
If there is ever one thing I wish Firaxis have done right (yep, they're doing it wrong), it's the diplos. On an unrelated note, Firaxis didn't solve the problem regarding gold to CSes. Very deep into the game, the influence gained through goldgiving decreases, it eventually turns negative. So, in the future, CSes hate it when a civilisation gives them money. That is ridiculous.
moksheebs
Kuala Lumpur GDR
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 92
Don't like.
It has all the drawbacks of the CIV diplomacy system with none of the strengths.
After reading some of the quotes from Firaxis about the new diplomacy system, I'm completely turned off to the company.
Though, if they wanted to attempt to entice me with some sort of "return to the game" offer, they could start by offering me the drugs they so obviously take in plentiful quantities.
It has all the drawbacks of the CIV diplomacy system with none of the strengths.
After reading some of the quotes from Firaxis about the new diplomacy system, I'm completely turned off to the company.
Though, if they wanted to attempt to entice me with some sort of "return to the game" offer, they could start by offering me the drugs they so obviously take in plentiful quantities.
JBConquests
Prince
I like the concept of denouncing but it needs some tweaks/balancing. By the end of a majority of games every civ has denounced every civ. What is the point of that?
I think if they tweak it a bit maybe we can get to the point where you can actually have friends all through the game. I mean after all if an AI Civ is going for a cultural or diplomatic victory it should be easu to maintain a good friendship with these civ's? At least up until a point where they realize that I'm going to win.
I think if they tweak it a bit maybe we can get to the point where you can actually have friends all through the game. I mean after all if an AI Civ is going for a cultural or diplomatic victory it should be easu to maintain a good friendship with these civ's? At least up until a point where they realize that I'm going to win.
jtb1127
Deity
Denouncing kills diplomacy!!!!
Lance of Llanwy
King
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2006
- Messages
- 710
I think it's a good mechanic, but, like basically the entire diplomacy system, it's poorly thought-out and implemented. AIs typically just denounce you as a matter of course. Even your "friends". Somehow, I don't think the AI algorithms are weighted correctly, because the AI should never go from being your BFF to denouncing you at the drop of a hat. There's really no logical transition, and it's much too easy for AIs to slip into that point of no return where they will hate some one for all eternity, which is all kinds of silly.
Basically, they have flesh-out diplomacy in a serious way, because right now the only real tool there is to express displeasure is essentially nuclear. No one launches nukes(metaphorical or otherwise) at the drop of a hat.
Basically, they have flesh-out diplomacy in a serious way, because right now the only real tool there is to express displeasure is essentially nuclear. No one launches nukes(metaphorical or otherwise) at the drop of a hat.
I voted yes a couple weeks ago, back when I was still optimistic and happy about the new patch. Oh how wrong I was.I just gave up on CiV until the next patch, because the brain-dead AI was beginning to corrode my own mind.
In my last game I was friends with Bismarck and our history of relations looked like this:
+ declaration of friendship
+ research agreement
+ we both denounced Montezuma and Caesar
+ I gave him resources when he asked for them
+ we both declared war against Montezuma and Caesar
+ I avoided settling my cities near his own cities
Our friendship should flourish in such conditions. Instead, he suddenly decided to denounce me, apparently because:
- I was denounced by Caesar and Montezuma, the same guys who denounced him
- I settled my fifth city (far away from his borders), which apparently means that I'm a land-gobbling menace
The diplomacy AI is so horribly bad at the moment, that CiV is just unplayable for me. This is a real shame, because every other aspect of CiV is working fine.
In my last game I was friends with Bismarck and our history of relations looked like this:
+ declaration of friendship
+ research agreement
+ we both denounced Montezuma and Caesar
+ I gave him resources when he asked for them
+ we both declared war against Montezuma and Caesar
+ I avoided settling my cities near his own cities
Our friendship should flourish in such conditions. Instead, he suddenly decided to denounce me, apparently because:
- I was denounced by Caesar and Montezuma, the same guys who denounced him
- I settled my fifth city (far away from his borders), which apparently means that I'm a land-gobbling menace
The diplomacy AI is so horribly bad at the moment, that CiV is just unplayable for me. This is a real shame, because every other aspect of CiV is working fine.
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