GOTM23 Succession Game [civ3]

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Karasu, you can get a four turn settler factory. The key is to mine one of the plains tiles and MM every turn.

Here's how:
Size 5, empty food, empty shields:
Goat(+0F,+2S),Wool(+1F,+2S),FP(+1F)x2,Mined Plains(-1F,+2S)
That gives +4F,+7S on turn 1.

Size5, 4F, 7S:
Goat(+0F,+2S),Wool(+1F,+2S),FP(+1F)x3
That gives +6F which grows from size 5 to 6. The governer assigns the new worker to the Mined Plains(-1F,+2S) but since food is already calculated, the -1F is has no effect, you just get the +2S, resulting in +7S this turn.

Size6, 0F, 14S:
Size 5, empty food, empty shields:
Goat(+0F,+2S),Wool(+1F,+2S),FP(+1F)x2,Mined Plains(-1F,+2S) {same as size 5} plus 1 irrigated plains (+0F, +1S).
That gives +4F,+8S on turn 3.

Size 6, 4F, 22S:
Goat(+0F,+2S),Wool(+1F,+2S),FP(+1F)x3 {same as size 5} plus 1 irrigated plains (+0F, +1S).
Again, grow to size 7 the governer should put the new citizen on the mined plain giving +8S on turn 4.
22+8=30 -> Settler is done, and pop falls back to 5, 0F, 0S. Do it again.

I don't see where the second and fourth turns get three flood plains to work. There are only two in Makkah city limits in my copy of the file.

[Edit] Sorry, we cross-posted while I was recalculating my RCP impact. If I am right about the two flood plains I'd like someone to check my solution as an alternative. Putting it in the same notation as yours:

Size 5, empty food, empty shields:
Goat(+0F,+2S),Wool(+1F,+2S),FP(+1F)x2,Irrigated Plains(+0F,+1S)
That gives +5F,+6S on turn 1.

Size5, 5F, 6S:
Goat(+0F,+2S),Wool(+1F,+2S),FP(+1F)x2,Irrigated Plains(+0F,+1S)
That gives +5F which grows from size 5 to 6. The governer assigns the new worker to the Mined Plains(-1F,+2S) but since food is already calculated, the -1F is has no effect, you just get the +2S, resulting in +8S this turn.

Size6, 0F, 14S:
Goat(+0F,+2S),Wool(+1F,+2S),FP(+1F)x2,Irrig Plains(+0F,+1S)x2.
That gives +5F,+7S on turn 3.

Size 6, 5F, 21S:
Goat(+0F,+2S),Wool(+1F,+2S),FP(+1F)x2, irrigated plains (+0F, +1S)x2.
Again, grow to size 7 the governer should put the new citizen on the mined plain giving +9S on turn 4.
21+9=30 -> Settler is done, and pop falls back to 5, 0F, 0S. Do it again.

MM every two turns.
 
I was going off the pictures and not the game save. As such, you may be correct that there are only two FP. What you propose should work. (Actually, what you propose would have worked regardless of there being 2FP or 3FP.) Either way, you need to get more plains irrigated as AlanH already indicated. And at least one mined as I indicated.
 
My only problem with sending the Settler back to home is that he'll probably go the way of the scout, on the end of a barb stick. But I'll stick with this plan when my turn comes up.
 
Great plans on the 4-turn settler factory, I really didn't see that we could do it but what you are saying makes sense. I think getting that running should be our priority before we get the road to the wool.
 
On a managerial level, the PTW team is now past the spoiler 1 level. When you meet the spoiler 1 requirements, you can read their report upto my **End of Spoiler 1** post. On the default forum view it's page 5. When you get there I'll tell the game date they left the Spoiler 1 realm. Their RL date was 2003OCT19.

The requirements to reach are:
  1. Full Map including all civs (or their remains)
  2. Entered the Middle ages.

I am posting in there thread to tell them that they can read your thread until you meet these requirements. Expect some popcorn throwing.;)
 
Regarding settling on Flood Plains, I remember reading somewhere that there is some chance of getting disease on any turn for each FP tile worked, and my understanding is that this cumulates (i.e., the more FP tiles you work the higher the chance).

So, if you found a city next to a FP, you will risk disease on every turn; the risk will be higher when you additionally work a Flood Plains.

Of course, I may have understood it incorrectly and I am probably overestimating the entire thing. But then, nobody is perfect... :)


I sent the workers to Madinah as Makkah has already some worked tiles, and I wanted Madinah to grow faster. Not having to cross the river made it faster to go to Madinah before roading the Wool. But I agree that that needs to be done quickly.

I also agree on founding according to your previous dotmap. Forget RCP!
 
@Smackster: Our settler's in good shape. He's already completed ten of his twenty moves back to base. Alweth should be able to get him to a city site in the north or north west, and he's got a warrior on his way to meet him. I think Karasu did the right thing running the scout ahead of him, and we are a long way from the coast, which seems to be the home of most barbs.

Here's a possible dot map with some second ring cities at radius 7 shown in yellow. Our Settler can get to the nearest, lakeside site in ten turns from where he is right now.



Feel free to throw popcorn ;)
 
Alan,

If we get the Settler back then you are right, if he dies then I was right. Proof positive. Actually I think maybe 20 turns isn't so many and he should help us to catch up. So good decision.
 
Originally posted by smackster
Great plans on the 4-turn settler factory, I really didn't see that we could do it but what you are saying makes sense. I think getting that running should be our priority before we get the road to the wool.

I agree. Next worker that comes free should irrigate the plains SW of Makkah then road the wool. The other one should mine and road an unimproved riverside plains tile somewhere next to Makkah. We should use riverside tiles as much as possible so that we get an extra gpt whenever we work them.
 
Originally posted by Karasu
Regarding settling on Flood Plains, I remember reading somewhere that there is some chance of getting disease on any turn for each FP tile worked, and my understanding is that this cumulates (i.e., the more FP tiles you work the higher the chance).

So, if you found a city next to a FP, you will risk disease on every turn; the risk will be higher when you additionally work a Flood Plains.

Of course, I may have understood it incorrectly and I am probably overestimating the entire thing. But then, nobody is perfect... :)
That's probably true, but my point is that disease can only strike when you are at size two, and it can only cost two lives at size three and above. At those levels you will probably be working every flood plain tile in range, regardless of what you are built on, so I doubt if the probability changes. But it's been known for me to be wrong as well ;) I'd really like to meet that "nobody" guy sometime ...

BTW One additional bonus from building on a flood plain tile is you get a shield out of it instead of the extra food. That can help in situations where there are lots of flood plains, and shields with food are hard to come by.


I sent the workers to Madinah as Makkah has already some worked tiles, and I wanted Madinah to grow faster. Not having to cross the river made it faster to go to Madinah before roading the Wool. But I agree that that needs to be done quickly.
I only debate whether both should have gone to Madinah. Also, beware of stacking workers on jobs this early because of rounding problems. A road costs three worker-turns, so two workers take two turns and waste one worker-turn, ie 33%. When you take the movement costs into account as well it can be quite wasteful to double up workers, as each tile you improve is likely to cost two worker-turns of movement instead of one.
 
Originally posted by Alweth
I'm having Madinah build a temple right off. Any comments?

You should build whatever you feel is right. Once you have the save I think its down to you. We can then discuss it afterwards, this is just my opinion but I think it adds more to the game, these are your 10 turns, enjoy them :)

However this time I'll give my opinion, in the assumption that you already played it.

I know I played this before, and I built the temple. But now I think I might go for the Granary, and make Madinah the worker/settler/warrior factory, a Granary will help that. The early temple in this one city to help domination will not make any difference in the long run, but early worker production will.
 
Well, I've played 5 turns now and I'm going to call it a night, so I thought I better give you guys something to think about until I get off work tomorrow and finish it up. So I'm uploading my log so far and a save so you guys can take a look and give comments. (Since I'm really trying to improve my Civ game.) I'll play the next five turns tomorrow and may be able to have it finished tomorrow morning but evening at the latest.

Here's the log:

Preturn - 2190BC
Look around. That's it.

I'll leave research at 10% even though I'm not sure what the strategy

behind it is. (I usually try to have my research as high as possible,

but I'm not very good.)

1. 2190BC

Madinah finishes warrior. I build temple, since production is currently

good, I'm concerned about happiness vs. population, and it's already

being crowded by Makkah.

E. Warrior->E to meet settler and explore.

E. Scout->NW>NW since warrior is exploring to his south.

Settler->SW

N. Scout->South

S. Scout->N>N to check out land around possible horse town

Madinah Warrior->W because I see some more warriors in Madinah's future

and we haven't explored that way yet. (Just realized this was dumb,

should have gone SW>W.)

End of turn, while checking diplomacy Civ III quits on me. Close some

other programs and load autosave. Do the same things again. Nothing to

report in diplomacy.


2. 2150BC - E. Warrior is attacked and killed by barbarian. Darn.

Makkah produces settler->S over river (forgot about that)

eqWorker->NE>NE>N (heading for wool)

Worker->NE>N (Because I don't know if I can handle another pop factory

yet)

Makkah Warior->N to meet settler

W. Warrior->SW to explore a tad before I bring him back to defend.

S. Scout->N>W

E. Scout->W>W

E. Settler->W (hope to avoid barb)

N. Scout->S

This time I save before checking diplomacy. Good thing too, because this

time it quits to desktop immediately. Load save. Mysticism is burning a

hole in my pocket, since the Ottomans have it too, but only neoCarthage

has anything (23 gp) to trade. Decide to gift Alphabet to them since

they're the only ones that don't have it and so that they wont trade

mysticism for it.

3. 2070 BC - Ottomans(?) grab horses with Uskudar

E. Scout->N>N sees barbarian settlement with barb next to him. Darn.

E. Settler->E hoping Veteran Persian Warrior will handle barbs in that

area.

Makkah Warrior->N

eqWorker->NE>E to wool

home Settler->SE>SE to city spot

Worker mines

w. Warrior->SW

Since city near horses has been set, no need to explore more, so:
S. Scout->S(see barb)>W(see another) Darn.

N. Scout->SW>S

End of Turn. Save. Apparently whenever I diplo the Spanish at the end

of my turn it quits to desktop. Zulus have Iron Working, but they want

everything we have plus gpt in exchange. I'll wait.

4. 2030 BC - S. Scout dies. E. Scout is okay. Makkah to 5 pop.

Found Diriyah. Start building Warrior because barbs are eating me alive.

eqWorker roading wool

N. Warrior->NE

W. Warrior->SE because my hand was off a key (meant to head back E to

defend)

N. Scout->SW>S

E. Scout->N

Settler->W sees Veteran Persian Warrior

MM Makkah and Diriyah. Quality land is getting a little crowded.

EOT. Save. Spain. Desktop. Load. Persians have Iron Working, so Zulus

are singing a different tune. Still will wait, though.

5. 2000 BC - Barbs approach Settler. Elite neoCarthage warrior

approaches Makkah.

For that reason, I decide to do diplo at the beginning this turn.

neoCarthage has Writing but is cautious. Don't know what their

intentions are, so I hope if I throw Myticism and Iron Working at them

they'll go away (and I can pick up writing in the process). 47g and

Mysticism to Zulus for Iron Working. 63g, Iron Working, Mysticism, and

contact with Egypt to neoCarthage for Writing and some politeness. I

think this should leave us in a very good position to trade as the other

civs get their techs.

When Madinah expands we'll have access to iron (assuming we road it).

Settler->W trying to avoid barb

E. Scout->E>N for same reason

Knew the mismove would come back to haunt me. W. Warrior now can't reach

Makkah before neoCarthage. Run, Warrior, run!->NE



N. Scout->S>S

N
. Warrior->N If neoCarthage causes trouble I'll have to rush-build defense.

6. 1950 BC - neoCarthage behaves, barbarians from south.

So that's what I've done so far.

Here's my save so far:

THIS IS NOT A FINAL SAVE. I STILL HAVE 5 TURNS TO GO.
 
Originally posted by Alweth
I'll leave research at 10% even though I'm not sure what the strategy behind it is. (I usually try to have my research as high as possible, but I'm not very good.)
When you research 10% you are effectively not researching, you just let the AI do it for you and trade something for it later (this assumes you know how/what you are trading for and when). 10% is better than 0% as you do actually get the tech after 40 turns if you don't get the trade you need (1 scientist and 0% is even better). Early in the game for hard techs (say writing) it makes no research time difference if you research 100% or 10% you get the same time to get the tech, so you might as well leave it at 10%. This leads to the main reason for 10% as that leaves most of the slider on cash, so that you can earn lots of cash while at 10%, for our big swordsman upgrade that is sure to come. Basically at most times in the Ancient age, either do 10% or 100%. (100% when we are sure we can get the tech first, and 10% when we can't get it but we are saving up to buy it or demand it).
Originally posted by Alweth
good, I'm concerned about happiness vs. population, and it's already being crowded by Makkah.
Just adjust the luxury slider to make everyone happy. Don't be concerned about it right now as you only lose a GP or two for adjusting this. Keeping all the citizens working is key.

Originally posted by Alweth
End of turn, while checking diplomacy Civ III quits on me. Close some other programs and load autosave. Do the same things again. Nothing to report in diplomacy.
This will be the old Civ3 spain diplomacy bug, just copy the attached files into the \Civilization III\Art\Flics folder. These are just the leaderheads for Spain which somehow got lost from the install. I'm suprised this didn't get fixed in the install yet. I had the same problem on GOTM 21 when I first me Spain.

Spain flics
 
Originally posted by Alweth

I'll leave research at 10% even though I'm not sure what the strategy

behind it is. (I usually try to have my research as high as possible,

but I'm not very good.)

[LURK]
As smackster said, the main benefit is to let the AI research for you and then trade for the techs. The real gains come when you are researching really expensive techs at minimum, which will let you get a monopoly on them once they are researched. Once you get it, you can easily trade for the other techs which the AI have researched, leaving you with a huge treasury from the taxes you got. This has been used a lot in QSC where you play 81 turns, making it possible to go for 2 minimum research projects. Depending on the level of play it might be possible to get monopoly on for instance Mathematics or Iron Working at turn 41 and on Code of Laws or Polytheism on turn 81.

At lower levels (chieftain/regent) this might not be as useful as the AI researches so slow, also on Deity it might be tough, since you will probably never get a monopoly, although it has happened to me once in a while.

For even more benefit, you can use a scientist in one of your not-so-good cities and then go 0% on science. This even works through anarchy. But be careful, you can't use governors since they will remove the scientist, and be careful that this city doesn't revolt.
[/LURK]
 
Wow! Thanks for a very thorough write-up Alweth.

We seem to have a great lead in every department - techs, contacts and money. I'm very impressed. The contacts situation is particularly surprising, as by the time I reached this point in my QSC everybody had already met or traded and there were no opportunities left. I think we must be pushing the tech rate along faster than I did. I've never used tech gifting much before, so this has been a lesson. Thanks.

After a quick look at the save, I have a few obvious comments. Sorry if these are egg-sucking lessons :rolleyes:

1. Shaka will give us all his gold for one contact. He's near to France, so he'll get that one soon anyway, so we should go for it. Our contacts wil expire in value very fast as they get traded round, so we should make what we can from them as soon as possible.

2. We are about to be raided by a barb south of Diriyah. He can grab gold and/or destroy the work in progress on our warrior. We can't get any defence there in time, so we need to do some damage limitation. The barb won't destroy the town, the pop is only 1 so he can't kill citizens, and they don't steal food, so ...

(a) Gold: With Shaka's 47 we'll have 150+ when the barb hits town. I think gold is distributed roughly in proportion to population when you get raided, so we would lose maybe 20-30 gold. Since we shall need embassies soon anyway, we could spend it now rather than lose it. We have lots of tradable items - contacts and techs, so we can afford to reduce our treasury. At our 10gpt rate we can get it back again fast. We could buy three expensive or four or five cheap embassies and leave the barb with little to rob.

(b) There's no point in accumulating extra shields in Diriyah for the next two turns until the barb has done his thing, as he might destroy them, so we should work the flood plain not the plain and accumulate some food. I would be doing that anyway - population is power, and Diriyah is growing slower than it could.

3. I would have moved the worker to the roaded plain SE of Makkah to irrigate, not the unroaded one, and saved a turn on getting the plain irrigation started. Small things, I know, but they build up.

4. 10% research is fine. If you try turning up the research budget you'll find Poly still takes 26 turns no matter what you set it to. With research at 10% we make loads of money each turn and we'll be able to afford all those upgrades and other techs when they come along.

5. Don't worry about isolated rival warriors approaching undefended cities. They will very rarely sneak attack with a single unit. Start worrying when you see a stack approaching. I had several heart-stopping turns during the QSC when stacks appeared near undefended cities, only to see them march on through on their way to some other objective, and I was much weaker that we are. This is going to happen, as we are right in the middle of the map. A bonus of getting some embassies is that we'll start to be able to see who's at war, and make alliances if we do get attacked.

Having said that, I'd like to have one or two warriors or spears around now we have a homeland to defend, who can move to defend any city reasonable quickly. We don't want to have to keep draining our treasury every time a barb appears. Watch out for the river, though, when assessing how fast a defender can switch cities. If they live in Makkah they can cut lux tax as well in the short term, until we need to move them out to our expanding border towns.

6. Don't forget to turn the lux slider down next turn. You'll have the wool hooked up, and Makkah will drop to pop 4 when the settler is built.

@Email10: I know you understand this, but I just want to emphasise that we don't even want to think about using a scientist at this stage in the game. There are several pre-conditions for this, none of which will apply to us for quite a while.

I don't change to 0% and a scientist until I have a seriously corrupt city to do the science in and a much bigger gpt than we have now. We are grossing 19 gpt currently so 10% for research rounds down to only 1 gpt. A scientist won't even be cost effective until we are spending at least 3 or 4 gpt at 10%, and even then the scientist would have to be in a city that can still grow, or sustain a max'ed out pop (6 or 12), without his food contribution. One exception is that you can use a captured city while I starve it down to reduce flip probability. You can make one citizen a scientist and the rest tax collectors. You get income and science even when there are still resisters in town. Sure, you have to reassign them each turn as they starve, but it's worth it. It can also be the case that these conditions don't apply until you are at a stage in the game when you want to max research anyway - beelining to Military Tradition, for example, or racing for a key wonder tech, so single scientist research is rare in my experience.

Oh, and I don't recommend using governors at any stage, for anything other than to exploit their ability to get bonus shields in our settler farm.
 
AlanH
smackster
Karasu
Alweth (Up Now, Still;))
MacBaldrick (Ondeck)
 
You are absolutely right AlanH. If I use scientists this way, I've probably already hit MA and have some really bad city which isn't doing any good anyway.
My intension with my post was not to suggest a strategy for you to play with in this particular game, just to answer Alweths question about why people research at minimum science and I suppose I got a little carried away in my explanation ;)
 
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