Considered a Villian By the World?!?!

How can you redeem yourself.

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You need to vote for a resolution that passes to remove the penalty. (I hope the next vote isn't for leader )

UnspokenRequest said:

I didn't plan on intervening on this thread, but I'd just like to say that the real UN has its purpose.
That it is very useful in many circumstances
and that it is a shame that people think it is useless.

Of course, it is far from perfect, but it is not useless.
War criminals have been prosecuted because of the UN.
There are today much more international law than you can possibly believe because of the UN.
Programs against landmines
Programs against hunger.
Programs to assist refugees.
Programs against AIDS.
This may seem like small achievements to you compared to questions of World peace, but for the poor who has got something to eat everyday or who doesn't have to walk for miles to get water, it makes a hel of a difference.

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And that's why the UN is useless in Civilization games. If you want to win a civilization game, you'd want to:

- be the best war criminal, backstabbing and razing more than anyone else
- put landmines right in your enemy's territory, making it impossible to do any farming
- starve the rest of the world as you win the space race
- generally have as much population as possible
- invent and spread AIDS to your enemies

That's pretty far off from the world we know. Not to say that the real world is a non-competitive, co-operative utopia. But many of our real world goals are motivated by something other than "be the first to ..." or "control the most ..." When you can make a fun game out of those new goals, then you can have a fun and useful UN.

This may have been mentioned, but is it possible your city has been hit (perhaps repeatedly) by 'foment unhappiness'? I noticed that Shaka had this same modifier amongst his unhappy civilians immediately after I had a spy foment unhappiness.

Pomp I frequent http://alternet.org/ on an almost daily basis and I know whats the feeling in the liberal american community, however its a small, almost negligible part of the american people and can in no way nor shape represent the american people.

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HAHAHAHAH! Bush has approval ratings of 30% right now. It's hardly a fringe minority that is upset with him. Of course, it is true that alternet's audience is the hyperliberal fringe, but that doesn't mean that everything they agree with is only true for the fringe. Even old Reagan diehards fear what Bush is doing to our country.

Sorry to others for going OT here, but I can't sit idly by as an American when I hear someone say this. I'm LIVID about what our government is doing, and I'm by no means part of the leftist fringe, and I'm by no means lacking for company.

I think that a way to solve this would be to completely rework the UN and make it in this way: to vote also the consequences of defying a resolution, that is, how much powert the UN truthly has. On its highest level, defying a resolution would be a true problem and the UN could be a great instrument for world peace. On the lowest level (aka the real one), the UN would be an almost cosmetic accessory. Make the player (or whoever builds the UN) decide it. It will not only make the UN more interesting, but also you might have very different end game scenarios. For example:

Possible power levels of the UN:

Feeble:

Diplomatic protest: -1 to all the relationships with every other civ t hat abstained on the resolution, -2 with every civ that voted for the resolution.

Nascent:

-1 of happiness in all your cities, diplomatic protest and:

Trade blockade: You loose the benefits of the unique coin, you loose every trade route with the nations that accepted the UN resolution.


Solid:

-2 of happiness in every city, diplomatic protest, trade blockade and:

Weapon embargo: -25% to the production of military units.

Almost world like goverment:

-3 of happiness in every city, diplomatic protest, trade blockade and:

Military intervention: Just in case that you defy a military resolution (nuclear weapons, stop attacking X civ): 5 marine units with 4 of exp are granted to the attacked / adjacent civ.

UnspokenRequest said:

I didn't plan on intervening on this thread, but I'd just like to say that the real UN has its purpose.
That it is very useful in many circumstances
and that it is a shame that people think it is useless.

Of course, it is far from perfect, but it is not useless.
War criminals have been prosecuted because of the UN.
There are today much more international law than you can possibly believe because of the UN.
Programs against landmines
Programs against hunger.
Programs to assist refugees.
Programs against AIDS.
This may seem like small achievements to you compared to questions of World peace, but for the poor who has got something to eat everyday or who doesn't have to walk for miles to get water, it makes a hel of a difference.

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Some of those might make good random events.

vodlaian said:

They need to add a UN screen in one of the advisors with the following:

- Resolutions (passed, failed, n/a)
- List of civs in the UN
- Date of next election

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Currently the victory screen allows you to see a list of resolutions that have been passed by the UN and AP.

I think that to simulate a better game-ism, when someone defies a resolution that passes (I'm mainly thinking the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, but it should go with the rest of the resolutions as well) There should be resolutions that can be proposed that will allow for international trade embargo's (similar to how the AP works except for civs that have defied votes) and also to call an international war (currently a holy war by the AP).

I don't understand why this hasn't been implemented yet. I also liked the idea a little ways back about how different civics should greatly vary the unhappiness factor for denying resolutions that pass. (Free speach adding unhappiness, while police state and theocracy decreasing it)

Most of the nations in the UN are not democracy's so I have a hard time with it forcing civics on the player.

That is why several nations should defy resolutions that have to do with changing civics. This would also tie in with my above post about how this should add embargo/war declaration options in the UN. This could create political blocks similar to RL.

Oh, wait, Shaka had defied a resolution to end a war I had started with him, so yeah, that's probably why he had the "considered a villian" modifier.

Pomp said:

Quite a few of us Americans are quite angry at our government for making us into the world's villains...of course, the Civ mechanic is, as always, an odd reflection of reality, since most of us don't quit our jobs and refuse to work because of our anger.

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Yes, but with our Malls and Hollywood, Broadway, AND Rock and Roll that's like a +9 right there. Add to the fact that we have EVERY luxury resource at our disposal and it makes us passive Hindu cows. Mmm... Manifest Destiny.

I mean look at the only time unhappiness got that high and we had MASSIVE war weariness penalties AND an emancipation penalty to boot (ahh Jim Crow).

Just to threadjack a BIT, it is interesting to consider the massive happiness boosts we have in the U.S. (40% culture rate to be fully gimped)

• +9 We have Broadway, Hollywood, and Rock and Roll (+3 ea. with broadcast towers and malls)
• +4 more for culture from the Broadcast towers
• +3 for at least a tri religion city that we have (Free Religon)
• +3 more for the temples of said religon
• +3 for cathedrals spread throughout most of our major cities (assuming only one per city of course)
• +3 from the coliseums (w/ culture) Go <insert team name here>
• +1 from the markets (Fur is murder! )
• +3 from forges
• +5 for our theatres

All told that's a whopping +34 happiness ... not too bad if you ask me.

Anyway, as you can see from that, those of us in the mildly populated Midwest love ourselves some Republican candidates as long as they keep feeding us our luxuries, but a constant defiance of UN measures (which wouldn't happen because we're the ones that set UN policy) could easily creep itself into the large metropolitan areas. I've had -15 before from war weariness and lack of emancipation and even with a +34 that's unhappy folks unless I have less than 19 population.

In the end I like how this works now. Much better imo

largedarryl said:

That is why several nations should defy resolutions that have to do with changing civics. This would also tie in with my above post about how this should add embargo/war declaration options in the UN. This could create political blocks similar to RL.

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Well, if you look at the current drama playing out in Iraq, massive unhappiness goes hand in hand with the stress these nations are put under by being considered "villains" by the world (and facing those consequences). I mean we still trade with most of thse places or somebody does so they're not exactly embargoed. I don't think ANYBODY is going to stop trading for Iran's oil anytime soon...

We get little to no news out of North Korea about the populace, but one can only imagine that they are going to take out a lot of anger if and when they are liberated.

Am I the only one who finds it a little strange that if I am so dastardly as to defy world opinion by choosing a free market economy over environmentalism my whole population goes into revolt, but if I march through my neighbors territory and exterminate their entire population and burn their cities to the ground no one so much as bats an eyelash?

I'm still on page 2 and could not wait to respond though, of course, I will read the rest.

I say if there is a penalty for defying the resoultion then a civilization should be able to build propaganda which, naturally, decrease the effect of the unhappiness in the city in which it is built. Moreover, a new unit could be built in this building: Psycological Operations Special Force. Which acts similar to a spy except that it uses its special ability it is consumed by its action. The special ability?

Fomenting unhappiness.

I just got the game yesterday and I am still on my first game. Terrible start on continents. I got the southern ice cap! I only see 1 other country and he is dominating me and I see all these wonders that are light years ahead being built. I think I'm done

Ikael said:

I think that a way to solve this would be to completely rework the UN and make it in this way: to vote also the consequences of defying a resolution, that is, how much powert the UN truthly has. On its highest level, defying a resolution would be a true problem and the UN could be a great instrument for world peace. On the lowest level (aka the real one), the UN would be an almost cosmetic accessory. Make the player (or whoever builds the UN) decide it. It will not only make the UN more interesting, but also you might have very different end game scenarios. For example:

Possible power levels of the UN:

Feeble:

Diplomatic protest: -1 to all the relationships with every other civ t hat abstained on the resolution, -2 with every civ that voted for the resolution.

Nascent:

-1 of happiness in all your cities, diplomatic protest and:

Trade blockade: You loose the benefits of the unique coin, you loose every trade route with the nations that accepted the UN resolution.


Solid:

-2 of happiness in every city, diplomatic protest, trade blockade and:

Weapon embargo: -25% to the production of military units.

Almost world like goverment:

-3 of happiness in every city, diplomatic protest, trade blockade and:

Military intervention: Just in case that you defy a military resolution (nuclear weapons, stop attacking X civ): 5 marine units with 4 of exp are granted to the attacked / adjacent civ.

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Yeah, I like this idea. The power of the negative modifier should be in direct proportion that the UN has Militarily.

Without teeth, the UN has no ability to punish offenders. I just wouldn't go too crazy about unhappiness penalties. Propaganda (again) is a very useful tool.

I like your trade embargo idea. I like your weapons embargo idea. Some of the units ideas. The units idea made me think of this: What if one of the penalties was somethin along the lines of a few barbarian type troops pop up out of cottages that you have. You could call them terrorists or rebels if that is too strong, something.

Anyway there are a lot better ways to give the UN "teeth" rather than simply creating an unhappiness modifier. In my opinion, the unhappiness modifier was either caused by laziness or lack-o-creativity.

I like your ideas and I agree with the thread starter.

Although, I Am still in the early-mid game in my very first game of Beyond the sword. (I'm taking a serious beating due to an plains/tundra/desert start with just enough grasslands for one city. All I can build are archers and citizens just started striking. After a couple suicide workers i finally got it to 30% science 0% espionage. LOL. I got walls built in every city though. I figure that if I am a good little boy I might just squeak buy until gun powder. Then I better be an extra little good boy. Its on agressive AI so I think I'm about to get crushed by a level that I am used to owning. Anyway, I like the game so far but I getting worried about all the complaints I am reading about...

I'll just have to see for myself.

With that said, I still agree with the thredad starter.

Feyd Rautha said:

Yes, but with our Malls and Hollywood, Broadway, AND Rock and Roll that's like a +9 right there. Add to the fact that we have EVERY luxury resource at our disposal and it makes us passive Hindu cows. Mmm... Manifest Destiny.

I mean look at the only time unhappiness got that high and we had MASSIVE war weariness penalties AND an emancipation penalty to boot (ahh Jim Crow).

Just to threadjack a BIT, it is interesting to consider the massive happiness boosts we have in the U.S. (40% culture rate to be fully gimped)

• +9 We have Broadway, Hollywood, and Rock and Roll (+3 ea. with broadcast towers and malls)
• +4 more for culture from the Broadcast towers
• +3 for at least a tri religion city that we have (Free Religon)
• +3 more for the temples of said religon
• +3 for cathedrals spread throughout most of our major cities (assuming only one per city of course)
• +3 from the coliseums (w/ culture) Go <insert team name here>
• +1 from the markets (Fur is murder! )
• +3 from forges
• +5 for our theatres

All told that's a whopping +34 happiness ... not too bad if you ask me.

Anyway, as you can see from that, those of us in the mildly populated Midwest love ourselves some Republican candidates as long as they keep feeding us our luxuries, but a constant defiance of UN measures (which wouldn't happen because we're the ones that set UN policy) could easily creep itself into the large metropolitan areas. I've had -15 before from war weariness and lack of emancipation and even with a +34 that's unhappy folks unless I have less than 19 population.

In the end I like how this works now. Much better imo

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I don't usually play on diffilculty levels that I get that far advanced so this modifier really sucks. It only balances the game if a person consistently play below their ability. It not right for those that playing at higher difficulties that have bad blood with their nieghbor for 1000's of years. It needs to be reworked from what I am hearing. After this post I will play a few games at various difficulties and find out for myself. I'm a little worried about all these gripes I am reading about.

In Civ as in real life we should remember the vast wisdom of the Florentine, who said, "It is better to be feared than to be loved." Most Americans, rightly, don't give a damn what 'world opinion' or the hypocritical UN thinks about anything. American's political leaders should do what is in the best interest of their country, just as the leaders of other countries should do what is in the best interest of theirs.

The main reason the real UN doesn't exercise the feeble powers of reprisal it has against the US for overthrowing Saddam is straightforward; the US pays a larger portion of the UN's budget than any other nation. Go on, UN, please throw us out of your ridiculous debating society and save us the waste of the millions we give to you each year.

What gauls the Europeans is that they are no longer the center of the world, but have been reduced to fairly powerless second and third rate nations. So, instead of trying to conquer the world, as did France and Germany and Russia, the Europeans suddenly become the conscience of the world and lecture everyone else on morality. They look silly, so silly that the UN is the perfect place for them to spew their pacifistic nonsense.

And, yes, the UN has too much power in Civ, which is why I always turn off diplomatic victory. Civ is a simulation, which tries to follow, in very broad outline, the way history and nations and civilizations work. It does a fair job of this; it would make a good teaching tool for school students. But the Aposltolic Palace and UN are absurd in real life and bothersome in the game.

Valadon said:

In Civ as in real life we should remember the vast wisdom of the Florentine, who said, "It is better to be feared than to be loved." Most Americans, rightly, don't give a damn what 'world opinion' or the hypocritical UN thinks about anything. American's political leaders should do what is in the best interest of their country, just as the leaders of other countries should do what is in the best interest of theirs.

The main reason the real UN doesn't exercise the feeble powers of reprisal it has against the US for overthrowing Saddam is straightforward; the US pays a larger portion of the UN's budget than any other nation. Go on, UN, please throw us out of your ridiculous debating society and save us the waste of the millions we give to you each year.

What gauls the Europeans is that they are no longer the center of the world, but have been reduced to fairly powerless second and third rate nations. So, instead of trying to conquer the world, as did France and Germany and Russia, the Europeans suddenly become the conscience of the world and lecture everyone else on morality. They look silly, so silly that the UN is the perfect place for them to spew their pacifistic nonsense.

And, yes, the UN has too much power in Civ, which is why I always turn off diplomatic victory. Civ is a simulation, which tries to follow, in very broad outline, the way history and nations and civilizations work. It does a fair job of this; it would make a good teaching tool for school students. But the Aposltolic Palace and UN are absurd in real life and bothersome in the game.

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I think I once posted why american voters should be held responsible for Bush's policies. And this is why, and this is why Bush got elected in the first place, not because the american people are 100% controlled by media and corporations. I don't want to get into an online argument, it's just these are really provocative comments.

But more relevantly, why can't New York and California defy US legislature? They are relatively richer and powerful than many of the other states. Then you can consider european states defying the EU, which does happen. The civ UN concept isn't ridiculous, it's just there are different degrees to buying into collective governments.

Or you could just disable diplomatic victory ;d

I almost never play with cultural space or diplo victory I prefer to conquer the world!

But more relevantly, why can't New York and California defy US legislature? They are relatively richer and powerful than many of the other states.

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Uh, they do sometimes, but they're not nearly as autonomous as the independent nations comprised by the EU, so when it comes down to it, US legislature has final say. They are states, which are the constituent parts comprised by the unitary nation called the USA. That was the crux of the whole federalist/anti-federalist debate: do you have a decentralized organization of which the significantly more autonomous states are members (anti-fed) or a powerful centralized government whose law takes ultimate precedence? Guess who won...

As for individual voters being individually responsible for the actions of the government, I'm not sure I can agree. I mean, as an American, I definitely realize that actions are carried out in my name, at least in how others perceive us. But, as a voter, I feel very specifically unrepresented by elected officials for whom I did not vote, especially if they veer so completely off from what I feel is a good direction for our country. As such, I kind of resent feeling responsible for what they do (though not for being seen as such, as that's understandable given that we approximate representative government).