SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

Edit2: need to also check GP Farm, I guess.
Excellent analysis, bbp! One for GP Farm would be great too. I've been thinking we need to find a balance between war preps and growing these cities (along with Siberia, hopefully).

so why don't we skip the treb whip in pigs?

As a GS is currently much more useful to us than a Great Spy I think we should fire the spy in pigs, and work a farm until CS is available.
I agree with skiping the treb in Pigs.

However, I would like to STRONGLY emphasize that the best thing under heaven that could happen to us now would be to pop a Great Spy!!!! I mean it. The GSes are only saving us about 3t of research each at our current 100% rate. The Great Spy would catapult us forward in terms of stealing techs from Roosy, saving 10t or more, I suspect. It would get us Communism far sooner, alone. Then it would get us Guilds + Banking as soon as Roosy gets them and COnstitution shortly thereafter.

In short, the possibility of popping a Great Spy is the one reason I'm particularly interested in switching to CS/Pacifism now. Otherwise, I think staying in slavery and just working 2sci everywhere would be better.

---------------

Edit: Just to give you an idea of how this would change the Communism steal. Mao's EP spending is currently 140% of ours. That means he has spent 3X as much as us. As in 800:2400 or something like that. So our cost for COmmunism right now would be ~1431EPs. If we EP-bombed Roosy for 3000 EPs, our cost for Communism would drop to ~880. At our current EP rate, that's 550/30=19t longer. :eek:

edit xpost w/bbp below
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The GSes are only saving us about 3t of research each at our current 100% rate.
Sure, except we have to stay at 100%. ;) More importantly, the issue is turns to Liberalism / Communism / Bio (not just any turns, with two AI @ Paper).

Are you talking about bombing the GSpy or settling, btw? I assume bombing, so I don't understand how you're stealing Comm and then techs from Roos with it.

Edit: x-post
Edit: Just to give you an idea of how this would change the Communism steal. Mao's EP spending is currently 140% of ours. That means he has spent 3X as much as us. As in 800:2400 or something like that. So our cost for COmmunism right now would be ~1431EPs. If we EP-bombed Roosy for 3000 EPs, our cost for Communism would drop to ~880. At our current EP rate, that's 550/30=19t longer. :eek:

edit xpost w/bbp below
Ok.
 
Sure, except we have to stay at 100%. ;) More importantly, the issue is turns to Liberalism / Communism / Bio (not just any turns, with two AI @ Paper).
Yes, but if we hire a bunch of sci, our 100% rate will go up a fair bit. I don't think research is our limiting factor right now. It's way ahead of our warring and EP production. I'm deeply concerned that we won't have anywhere close to the EPs we'll need for Communism when we slingshot Biology. That's why I'm pushing so hard for the Mao Campaign asap.

Fast research is a good problem to have though, of course. :) We'll need to leverage it somehow, like maybe beeline your beloved cannons or something after Bio... ;)
 
We don't have a lighthouse yet in pigs. If we whip anything there we could whip that for 1 pop.
 
I'm deeply concerned that we won't have anywhere close to the EPs we'll need for Communism when we slingshot Biology. That's why I'm pushing so hard for the Mao Campaign asap.
And that's why I was so adamantly against the Communism steal a while ago. ;) I think it'll be fine, though. As long as we're not hurting too, too bad, Communism can delay a bit (also why I'm not too keen on further cities settled for now - and they're slow to develop without Slavery - except bcool's next site has lots of production, so fine).

We can run a spy in Pigs. I'd personally fire it for now in favour of growth, but that's only a matter of 30-40ep - hardly make or break.

Edit: x-post
We don't have a lighthouse yet in pigs. If we whip anything there we could whip that for 1 pop.
:yup: Except I don't think we need it very soon. We could slow build it?
 
Updated PPP

Tech plan
Gunpowder, Chemistry, Printing Press, Chemisty (with plan to reassess if/when see Gandhi's research)
Edit: Interrupt Tech to get Liberalism 1 turn away after we steal philosophy.
Edit: GS pops Printing Press not Chemistry so we have to do that first?

Trades

If Roosevelt gets Optics trade for his maps every 2-3 turns for 5 gold (for circumnavigation)
Look for Gold trades
Assess trades each turn (but Don't trade Engineering for Feudalism)

Espionage switch to Mao T156 now.

Builds

Moscow
Heroic Epic - Treb (forever more)

Fish
- treb - macemen - galley - market

Siberia
- spy (backup for philosophy steal)- grow with MoM (get furs and 2 scientists working) (perhaps 1 more whip to put overflow into MoM, will assess on the fly)

Pigs
Overflow into MoM, lighthouse (slow build-edit:actually a 1 pop whip is good here since all a grass farm does is give us +1 food)

GP Farm
treb - 2 pop treb - overflow MoM - archer for MP - Market

Cuba
courthouse

Bahamas
settler - archer - archer

Bermuda
courthouse, Moai after whip (chop forest into build once confu spread here)

Rheims
Treb (2 pop when have 5 pop) - forge

Bananas
-courthouse (whip when possible)-forge (or settlers?)

Paris
trireme , Galley, Galley, Galley, (whipping asap), Forge

Kamchatka
workboat (whip when will grow back to 2 pop next turn) - granary - lighthouse - courthouse

Orleans
War Elephant 2 pop - library

Important Worker Goals

Grass Farms for Siberia, Fish
Forts for Mao Assault
Temporary Fort for Fish Galley link

Military action
(let Churchill capture Marseilles if he can... Use chariot or spy to check on progress. Send opportunistic maceman in to take the city & Steal workers if it doesn't slow down Mao campaign

Unpromoted axe, chariot sent to Orleans and Paris
workboat sent to explore island near whales

Close borders with Churchill if he threatens Lyons

Plan for Mao assault
Get 8 Maces, 2 Swords, 6 Treb in SoD next to Mao's border by T165

Land 2 Maces Pikeman, CI + cover Macemen, 3 catapults 1 accuracy Treb behind Shanghai

Missionaries

Missionaries send to Bermuda and Bahamas Cuba with GG galley when arrives
Missionary will be used in Kamchatka (to help accelerate that city's development)

Planning to steal Philosophy asap (with backup spy in the wings if we get caught)

Stopping if...
1. SHTF
2. War declarations (any)
3. Reach T164 (for final details on war, decision to switch to Caste & Pacifism--probably will need 2 turns of anarchy...)
edit (perhaps just a switch to Pacifism)
 
Edit: GS pops Printing Press not Chemistry so we have to do that first?
Shouldn't matter. If we put no research into PP, we can get full credit for the bulb.
Espionage switch to Mao T156 now?
Yes.
Siberia
- spy (backup for philosophy steal)- grow with MoM - settler (2 pop for iceballing DeG) - MoM
Where do we ice ball him? Really not sure we want to spend a settler on that so soon.
Military action
(let Churchill capture Marseilles if he can... Use chariot or spy to check on progress. Send opportunistic maceman in to take the city?)
Actually, I think you could go ahead and continue worker stealing and sending a couple units down for Marseilles, just in case. We'd rather have it than not. Plus, the sooner we get our next GG, the better. But only go for really good odds and don't risk our cities. (Obviously.)
Land 2 Maces 3 catapults 1 accuracy Treb behind Shanghai
Okay, I have re-thought this. First, with the accuracy treb, we don't need the fourth cat. Instead, let's beef up that stack to make it safer, just in case. I'd stick the WE in there, along with the new mace that can be promoted to CI-cover. The spy that I moved toward Beijing should continue far enough to peak into Guangzhou, then come back. But don't stop on any important resources or in any cities.
Missionaries sent to Bermuda and Bahamas with GG galley when arrives
Bahamas doesn't need it currently, does it? Better to put them in Cuba and Bermuda? Then Bermuda or elsewhere make one for Bahamas?
 
Edit: GS pops Printing Press not Chemistry so we have to do that first?
I think we should research PP first. Chem is our first Lib abort, so we should delay putting beakers in it. Actually, I think we should research Lib asa we have Philo, to near completion, then PP, then Chem (when we can do it @ 100%) > Sci Meth.
 
Gifting Roosy cities

Guys, I wasn't talking about needing settlers for bcool's Island. ;) I was talking about settlers for
1. Moscow-2S-1SE
2. Hammer City
3. Rice/sugar/ivory south of Beijing
4. Chain-gifting Roosy cities so we canll steal his techs cheaply.

We haven't talked about this to much, but now might be the time. Chain-gifting Roosy cities is tricky, because he won't take cities farther than 9.5 tiles away.

My analysis shows that it's probably best to make a northern chain. If Roosy capture Mao's Chengdu, then we could gift him Hangzhou, the gift him Kamchatka-3S, then Siberia-3S, for example. The problem is this: Kamchatka-3S is UNSETTLEABLE because of Lyons!

Conclusion: I think we want to raze Lyons if we capture it. :eek: We can't capture it yet anyway, but just so the idea is out there.
 
Excellent analysis, bbp! One for GP Farm would be great too. I've been thinking we need to find a balance between war preps and growing these cities (along with Siberia, hopefully).
It doesn't seem like GP can beat any of the next 3 from Pigs. It could get another a few turns after the third, though.
 
bcool, I forgot to comment on a couple PPP items. I don't like poprushing Siberia anymore. Let's grow it. It should be able to hire the spy, 2 sci and work the two furs, preferably. Siberia is no good for building settlers, only poprushing them. If we're going to switch to CS soon, we should be growing our specialist cities in advance, as much as possible.

The other comment is, wtf, man! I forgot all about overgrowing our empire and having 2t of revolt for 2 civics. That sux royally. Raelly makes me wonder if we want to switch at all right now. That's expensive without a golden age to do it for free.
 
Originally Posted by bcool
Siberia
- spy (backup for philosophy steal)- grow with MoM - settler (2 pop for iceballing DeG) - MoM
Where do we ice ball him? Really not sure we want to spend a settler on that so soon.

I think this is insurance if churchill crushes DeG quickly and makes it easier to raze Lyons when we need to...

Actually, I think you could go ahead and continue worker stealing and sending a couple units down for Marseilles, just in case. We'd rather have it than not. Plus, the sooner we get our next GG, the better. But only go for really good odds and don't risk our cities. (Obviously.)

This might slow down our war plans, I can send the axe and chariot to paris and Orleans respectively, so that this might be possible. (and make archers for GP Farm and Pigs before we need them I think)

Okay, I have re-thought this. First, with the accuracy treb, we don't need the fourth cat. Instead, let's beef up that stack to make it safer, just in case. I'd stick the WE in there, along with the new mace that can be promoted to CI-cover. The spy that I moved toward Beijing should continue far enough to peak into Guangzhou, then come back. But don't stop on any important resources or in any cities.
Okay maybe a pikeman instead of WE since it will get the forest defensive bonus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcool
Edit: GS pops Printing Press not Chemistry so we have to do that first?
I think we should research PP first. Chem is our first Lib abort, so we should delay putting beakers in it. Actually, I think we should research Lib asa we have Philo, to near completion, then PP, then Chem (when we can do it @ 100%) > Sci Meth.

Fine by me.
 
I think this is insurance if churchill crushes DeG quickly and makes it easier to raze Lyons when we need to...



This might slow down our war plans, I can send the axe and chariot to paris and Orleans respectively, so that this might be possible. (and make archers for GP Farm and Pigs before we need them I think)


Okay maybe a pikeman instead of WE since it will get the forest defensive bonus?
If Churchill captures Marseilles and starts to move on Lyons, then we simply have to close borders. No two ways about it. I'm not interested in advancing Chruchill's research. We want to go down on him asap. Note that London has a Scotland Yard! We want that momma. By the way, Sotland yard is:

<iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>

:)

Whatever you do, don't slow down our warplans for Mao!!! :)

Yes: Pikeman! :)
 
The other comment is, wtf, man! I forgot all about overgrowing our empire and having 2t of revolt for 2 civics. That sux royally. Raelly makes me wonder if we want to switch at all right now. That's expensive without a golden age to do it for free.

Maybe just pacifism...

Plan to keep the spy hired.
 
Bahamas doesn't need it currently, does it? Better to put them in Cuba and Bermuda? Then Bermuda or elsewhere make one for Bahamas?

I thought Bahamas and Bermuda because less likely to auto spread, but Cuba and Bermuda makes sense.
 
bcool, I forgot to comment on a couple PPP items. I don't like poprushing Siberia anymore. Let's grow it. It should be able to hire the spy, 2 sci and work the two furs, preferably. Siberia is no good for building settlers, only poprushing them. If we're going to switch to CS soon, we should be growing our specialist cities in advance, as much as possible.

Still good even if we don't switch to Caste system probably. Maybe can even build the MoM completely for us.
 
It doesn't seem like GP can beat any of the next 3 from Pigs. It could get another a few turns after the third, though.

O.K. If we can generate a 4th GS quickly, I guess it doesn't matter if we get a spy.

1. Moscow-2S-1SE
2. Hammer City
3. Rice/sugar/ivory south of Beijing
4. Chain-gifting Roosy cities so we canll steal his techs cheaply.

1.Moscow 2S 1SE can wait till the turn before we need to gift it for building techs.
3. We can't settle rice/sugar/ivory until we have beaten China.

4. I'm doubtful about how good an idea it is to build several cities just to give them to America. I think we should attack America immediately after the China war is won, gifting him several cities would not be consistent with this.

If we can reduce him to 3 cities fairly quickly we can gift him 2S 1SE temporairily and steal techs from that. Alternatively a Great Spy would make distance considerations fairly unimportant. If need be we could also consider relocating the capital closer to America for a few turns if need be.

2. Is the only site you listed I think it is worthwhile to settle in the near future ( We could build a second settler in Bahamas for it, I agree that whipping Siberia is no longer cost effective.)

That sux royally. Raelly makes me wonder if we want to switch at all right now. That's expensive without a golden age to do it for free.

It's already too late for that.
 
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