[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

raystuttgart said:

Great.
I do not understand what you mean by that ?
(I am not sure if it would be a good idea to add even more "barbarians", as "Wild Animals" and "Pirates" will do ...)

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It's a Civ4 option. You get twice as much barbarians as usual... Here I was thinking of twice as much animals...

raystuttgart said:

No, it does not work like that.
There is no certain number to wait.

It is chances of randoms.
(You can only set the average chances per round.)

So if you set chances to 2% then you will get a pirate per average every 50 rounds.
(Not knowing if the actual spawning will be round 1 or X.)

If you take a look at my implementation of "Learning By Doing", you will know what I mean.
(I have implemented many features like that, because I hate determinism.)

You will never know before, when things will actually happen.
(That would be very boring ...)

It is not like a clock where every one hour a bell will ring.
It is more like roulette or a wheel of fortune.

Click to expand...

Great! I like the roulette idea better than the clock idea. So everything is OK !

Gomer_Pyle, you can check here if you want:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=425319

Robert Surcouf said:

Great! I like the roulette idea better than the clock idea. So everything is OK !

Click to expand...

I implement almost all my features with randoms.
(As I said, I hate determinism ... )

Especially things that are somehow "event like":
(Things that would not be calculatable in reality.)

Units changing -> Learning, Running Away, Becoming Free, ...
DLL-Diplo-Events -> European Wars, European Peace, ...
Creation of Units -> Wild Animals, Pirates, ...
Success of Actions -> Bargaining with Natives, Bribing, Missioning, ...
Calculation of Prices -> Native Mercenaries, ...
...

Of course, there are always factors or settings that influence or limit these randoms.
(Rounds played, Maximum Limits, Attitudes, Number of Units ...)

So it is not pure luck.
You still never know exactly.

It is like a game.
(You know your chances and how to influence them, but that's it.)

Satisfaction

Basic ideas:

• Adding a new dimension to gameplay.
• Bells / Statesmen are currently too powerful. (Compared to crosses for example)

1. Natives

Satisfaction is completely irrelevant for Natives.
(They will always have average level.)

2. Satisfaction of Cities and Complete Nation

Each City will have its own Satisfaction rate (in % displayed at City-Screen).

Also Satisfaction is calculated for the complete Nation (in % displayed at Main-Screen).

3. Effects

<50% -> Negative effects
=50% -> No effects
>50% -> Positive effects

Effects of "City"-Satisfaction:
(could be positive or negative, depending on rate)

A) It will influence productivity. (Replacing "Revolutionary Level".)
B) It will influence defense bonus of city. (Replacing "Revolutionary Level".)
C) Cause some special events (e.g. spontaneous growth, finishing of building, revolts, destruction of goods, ...)
D) Draw colonists from other nations to the city or cause colonists to leave for a city of another european nation.

Effects of "Nation"-Satisfaction:
(could be positive or negative, depending on rate)

A) Influence the strength of the troops.
B) Influence immigration from "Second / All European Immigration Pool".
C) Cause some special events with the king

4. Factors of calculation

A) Normal Wars - Not Revolution
(Will have a negative effect, of course.)

B) Religion
(Priests / Preachers have positive effects on satisfaction.
The lack of these will cause satisfaction to fall.)

C) Health-Rate
(High rates increase satisfaction, low rates decrease satisfaction.)

D) Culture per Round
(Culture output increases satisfaction.)

E) Supply by Inlandsales
(If give the colonists the goods they desire, satisfaction will rise.)

F) Taxes to the King.
(Rising taxes will cause satisfaction to drop.)

G) Slaves, Indentured Servants and Criminals.
(Having these in your cities will lower satisfaction.)

H) Military stationed in City
(Protection will increase satisfaction.)

I) Founding Fathers
(Some Founding Fathers might have effects)

J) Recently conquered cities
(Cities that have recently been conquered have lower satisfaction.)

K) Recent Native Raids
(Cities that have recently been raided have lower satisfaction.)


5. Remarks about Bells and Statemen

So since "Satisfaction" will take over several functions of "Revolutionary Level", why should I still produce bells or use statesmen ?

Answers:

A) Statesmen / Production of bells will influence satisfaction indirectly by producing Culture (see here)
B) To get Founding Fathers
C) I have other ideas / other features where Statesmen will be very important (e.g. a "Technology Concept" I will explain another time.)
D) To be able to start Revolution
E) To increase (area of) influence

----------------------

Feedback ?

I love the idea... It's even connected to your religious ideas.
You're right, statesmen are too powerful compared to other specialists.

However, you seem to prefer a "one variable" concept. Wouldn't it be more realistic if we have a happiness level AND an unhappiness level ? (In Civ 4 you have two variables...)

Robert Surcouf said:

I love the idea...

Click to expand...

Great.

Robert Surcouf said:

It's even connected to your religious ideas.

Click to expand...

And to my ideas about economy (Inland Sales) and slaves and native raids and ...

Robert Surcouf said:

You're right, statesmen are too powerful compared to other specialists.

Click to expand...

Yes they are, but I am also thinking about giving them another duty:

Writing Constitution
(Which is part of a technology concept, I will explain in a few days.)

Robert Surcouf said:

However, you seem to prefer a "one variable" concept.

Click to expand...

Yes I do.

50% is normal / staring values with no effects.
Then it can rise or fall depending on the gameplay.

<50% is bad / giving negative effects
>50% is good / giving positive effects

Depending on the value of the rate of course.

Robert Surcouf said:

Wouldn't it be more realistic if we have a happiness level AND an unhappiness level ?

Click to expand...

I would really prefer to have only one.
I think it would be easier to implement and also easier to understand for the player.

Either I am happy (>50%) or I am not (<50%) .
(It is a little strange if the citizens of a city are both ...)

By the way:

Satisfaction is no yield.
(It is simply one calculated value for each city and one calculated value for complete nation.)

Of course it could still be displayed in Advisor Screens.

Hi Robert,
since we currently have no open discussion about a feature, I introduce another one of my ideas.

"Open European Harbours" - Contract

1. In Diplomacy with other Europeans you can trade for "Open European Harbours".

• AI will only sell this treaty and not buy it.
• You will only get it if you have good relations. (Else it is red and won't be traded.)
• You will pay every round the treaty is active. (You will trade it for roundwise pay.)
• After a minimum of rounds you can cancel the treaty if you do not want it any more.

2. Effects

By aquiring this treaty, you will be allowed to send (max. X) ships at a time to the European Harbour of the AI you bought the right from.
(X is setting in XML.)

In the European Harbour of the AI you will be allowed to buy and sell goods at the tax-rates and prices of that AI.
(You will not be allowed to buy or load units / immigrants.)

By doing so, you will influence prices and taxes of that AI.

3. Usability

• There will be a button "Sail to other European Harbour" at the units.
• Clicking this button will bring a Selection List with the European Harbours that are possible.
• If you already have too many ships at the moment sent to a specific harbour, a Pop-up will inform you, if you select that one.
• In Europe-Screen there are arrows on the top, which will allow you to scroll through the harbours.
• A befriended modder had started creation of individual European-Harbour backgrounds for each nation. I could ask him if he would finish and if we could use them.

3. Cancellation of that treaty

• You yourself could cancel it after a certain number of rounds. Your ships will appear in New World again.
• Any war with that European will automatically cancel it. Your ships eventually in the other harbour will be lost.
• The other nation starts Independence. Your ships will appear in New World again.
• You yourself start Independence. Your ships will appear in New World again.
• The other nation is destroyed. Your ships will appear in New World again.

4. Your own king

Every time you send a ship to another European harbour, there are small chances that his attitude will get worse and he might even increase his army.
(You are not sending goods to him and not paying taxes to him.)

There will be a message when this happens.

5. General

There would be many XML-settings to this feature to do balancing.

The predefined XML-Settings would assure that this feature could not totally destroy prices and taxes for the AI by you selling enormous masses of goods.
(Number of ships is limited, you pay a price every round, Reaction of your own king ...)

AI itself would not really be using this feature, it will just get money you pay every round for the treaty.

I myself am not really sure about this feature.
(It really needs to be limited in order to not destroy the economy of an AI but by limiting the effects also its use is limited ... )

This feature would really be a lot of work.

---------------------

Feedback ?

Well... It's an interesting idea but it might be difficult to implement it...
We would have to know other European prices and tax rates etc...

But if you think is is possible than, yes I like the idea!

Robert Surcouf said:

... but it might be difficult to implement it...

Click to expand...

Yes, it is a lot of work.

Robert Surcouf said:

We would have to know other European prices and tax rates etc...

Click to expand...

That is almost the smallest problem ...
(It is no big difference to get these infos from own player or another player.)

I had started working on the technical concept but have stopped.
(e.g. in Leaderheads there would be a xml-tag to connect a Europe-Screen with a player)

Robert Surcouf said:

But if you think is is possible ...

Click to expand...

I am quite sure that it is generaly possible.

Robert Surcouf said:

... yes I like the idea!

Click to expand...

I like the idea too, of course.

But as I said, my problem with this feature is relatively small use, compared to the amount of work necessary.

I suggest, that we simply keep this idea in mind.
(Without really being "planned". -> List "Undecided")

If the befriended modder I was talking about or someone else would create the nation-specific background images for Europe Screen
and if we do not have todos that are more important to us, then we might consider again.

Like the idea about open harbors, though wondering how profitable it would be if the king is likely to increase his REF and you have to pay a penalty for each turn you have the treaty. Though it might be useful in the short term for a quick sale of stored goods, or to try and sabotage your neighbors economies by flooding their home markets with a glut of the most profitable goods that colony produces.

Curious about the colony satisfaction element. Does it effect the ability to declare Independence? I did not see it listed in the city or nation effects. If it does, would the inidividual satisfaction rate of a colony effect that colony's ability to declare or join in an independence movement or would poor satisfaction in a few colonies just effect the overall group of colonies ( i.e., nation) satisfaction rate in regards to independence.

The satisfaction feature could be an interesting addition to the game.

colonialfan said:

Like the idea about open harbors, though wondering how profitable it would be if the king is likely to increase his REF and you have to pay a penalty for each turn you have the treaty. Though it might be useful in the short term for a quick sale of stored goods, or to try and sabotage your neighbors economies by flooding their home markets with a glut of the most profitable goods that colony produces.

Click to expand...

That's an idea

colonialfan said:

The satisfaction feature could be an interesting addition to the game.

Click to expand...

I think so too! Do you

colonialfan said:

Curious about the colony satisfaction element. Does it effect the ability to declare Independence? I did not see it listed in the city or nation effects. If it does, would the inidividual satisfaction rate of a colony effect that colony's ability to declare or join in an independence movement or would poor satisfaction in a few colonies just effect the overall group of colonies ( i.e., nation) satisfaction rate in regards to independence.

Click to expand...

Do you mean that some kind of unhappiness would increase rebellion sentiment?

Ray, I agree. We will put the "Open European Harbors" - Contract idea in the undecided list!

colonialfan said:

Curious about the colony satisfaction element. Does it effect the ability to declare Independence?

Click to expand...

No, it will not affect your ability to declare independence.
(This is still the revolutionary rate.)

But it will affect your ability to win war of independence, as it will affect the strength of you troops.

colonialfan said:

The satisfaction feature could be an interesting addition to the game.

Click to expand...

Yes, I really believe that it would add a completely new and interesting aspect.

colonialfan said:

Like the idea about open harbors, though wondering how profitable it would be if the king is likely to increase his REF and you have to pay a penalty for each turn you have the treaty. Though it might be useful in the short term for a quick sale of stored goods, or to try and sabotage your neighbors economies by flooding their home markets with a glut of the most profitable goods that colony produces.

Click to expand...

The balancing of the XML-Settings will decide how profitable that feature would be.

But yes, you could

• Make money, by selling at higher prices than in your own European Harbour without influencing your own prices and tax rates
• Influence prices and taxes of another European
• Sell goods that are boycotted on your own European Harbour

But because these are very poweful aspects the feature needs to be limited to not totally destroy gameplay.

• Number of ships by turn is limited
• Some payment to the other European
• King might get angry (randoms / chances for him taking actions)

This feature is not supposed to be a Wildcare that totally allows you to break all rules !

You should be forced to consider very wisely if it is worth paying the money and risking that you own king will react negatively.

Robert Surcouf said:

Ray, I agree. We will put the "Open European Harbors" - Contract idea in the undecided list!

Click to expand...

Yes, we will simply see how things will eventually develop with this.
(I think it could be a cool feature but it is a lot of work and other things are much more important. )

Thanks for clarifying the satisfaction feature. I do like the concept of how it might effect your ability to win a war of independence. Just like in the real world, the greater a war is protracted the more dissatisfied the populace become and the harder it is to maitain adequate support to win that war.

@Robert:

I think you would really like to have some kind of "Technology Concept" in this project.
Actually I have been thinking a lot about that and I am not really sure about it.

But ok, I have a concept and here it is.
(Really curious, what you think about it. )

Native Knowledge and Inventions
(Technology Concept)

There are 2 Types of Knowledge (I do not like to call it "Technology").

Each of them works a little different and will give other benefits.

A) Native Knowledge

You can gain Native Knowledge Points by the following ways:

• Everytime you visit a Native village for the first time, you will get a small random number of these points.
• Every Mission in a Native village will generate one point a round.
• Every Converted Native will generate one point a round.

These points are invested to acquire a Native Knowledge.

Other ways of acquiring a Native Knowledge:

• The very first European Scout to visit a Native Village will have a small chance to get one as gift.
• You can trade with Natives for their knowledge in Diplomacy Screen.
• Once acquired you can also trade this knowledge with Europeans.

Effects of Native Knowledge:

• Native Knowledge will give Bonus on professions working with yields native to the new world.
• Some Native Knowledge will let you understand Natives better and give bonus on relationship to them or improve rates of missioning.

B) Inventions

There will be a Building and a Specialist (Inventor) where Invention-Points are generated.

With these Points Inventions are acquired.

Inventions can be traded between Europeans.

Also, from time to time there will be a new Invention in Europe.
These new Inventions can be bought from the King in Diplomacy then.

Inventions will do the following:

• Unlock Buildings (e.g. Second Level of Production Buildings or Trainstation)
• Unlock new Units (e.g. new Ships, Trains, new Military Units, ...)
• Unlock new Promotions (e.g. new Ammunition)
• Effects on Gamefeatures (e.g. Learning by Doing, Health, Satisfaction, ...)
  ...

Summing Up the Main Differences:

Native Knowledge will mainly improve output of plot professions for Yields of the New World. Most important source is Natives and actions with these.
Inventions will mainly unlock units, buildings, promotions and eventually also improve game features ... . Main sources are your own inventors, also other European but very often also the King.

We would need to have a "Knowledge-Screen" with several Tabs.

-----------------

Of course this is only a general concept.
(We would brainstorm about and define the specific knowledges once this idea is generaly accepted.)


Feedback ?

Okay I didn't read the entire thread, only first page, but I can already say: These concepts look just what I've been searching for.

I am intending to try some multiplayer sessions with friends, and the "huge mods" (AoD, DoaNE) make the game far too big and probably cause MP desyncs as well.


What mostly irritated me in Col2 is the easy exploration. By avoiding early wars with the native "empires", you can discover the whole continent with your scout unharmed. Modders like Dale didn't share my concerns, saying they wouldn't want to punish, but rather encourage the player for exploring. However I never understood how just having a friendly chat with the chief would net you more money than razing the entire village with your army of Conquistadores.
Send an unarmed colonist on a travelling mission to all villages on the continent, and he always gets richly rewarded with huge amounts of beads, but never falls in the hand of some cannibalist tribe. The new world is depicted as a peaceful paradise.

Wild animals and pirates would fix that, storms also make sailing a bit more of a challenge (and fun).

I have only one further proposal: Instead of introducing too many European raiding Pirates that, for reasons unknown, would roam the American wilderness, you could also add nationless native raiders. This would sound more plausible to me: Natives weren't thoroughly organized in nations or empires, and the European settlers weren't at war or at peace with all of the Apache people at a given time. It was more an issue of independent raiding parties, and usually a dangerous annoyance more than an all-out war. Adding Native barbarians (additionally to European Pirate barbarians) would neatly symbolize that situation.
Additionally, pirates appearing too soon would look weird to me... they weren't lurking in the dense forests of 1492, but wild animals, illness and native raiders were.

If I remember correctly from my days of Col1, we actually had Native raiders appearing after a while even though you were formally at peace with the neighbouring villages. In the end, it would get so annoying that you had to raze the village, causing the eventual all-out war against the people.


So, what do you think?
And is the mod suitable for MP anyway?

Ray,

I love your idea!
I love your three kinds of Knowledge!

Astat said:

What mostly irritated me in Col2 is the easy exploration. By avoiding early wars with the native "empires", you can discover the whole continent with your scout unharmed. Modders like Dale didn't share my concerns, saying they wouldn't want to punish, but rather encourage the player for exploring. However I never understood how just having a friendly chat with the chief would net you more money than razing the entire village with your army of Conquistadores.
Send an unarmed colonist on a travelling mission to all villages on the continent, and he always gets richly rewarded with huge amounts of beads, but never falls in the hand of some cannibalist tribe. The new world is depicted as a peaceful paradise.

Wild animals and pirates would fix that, storms also make sailing a bit more of a challenge (and fun).

I have only one further proposal: Instead of introducing too many European raiding Pirates that, for reasons unknown, would roam the American wilderness, you could also add nationless native raiders. This would sound more plausible to me: Natives weren't thoroughly organized in nations or empires, and the European settlers weren't at war or at peace with all of the Apache people at a given time. It was more an issue of independent raiding parties, and usually a dangerous annoyance more than an all-out war. Adding Native barbarians (additionally to European Pirate barbarians) would neatly symbolize that situation.
Additionally, pirates appearing too soon would look weird to me... they weren't lurking in the dense forests of 1492, but wild animals, illness and native raiders were.

Click to expand...

Well thank you Astat! I also think it is to easy to explore the New World! I even thought once to add a small amount of damage on peaks and jungle plots in the first era... I think we were only talking of pirates on water plots. There won't be any "land" pirates. Native barbarians. It's a good idea. But, we will probably try to implement the "native raids" feature first.

Astat said:

If I remember correctly from my days of Col1, we actually had Native raiders appearing after a while even though you were formally at peace with the neighbouring villages. In the end, it would get so annoying that you had to raze the village, causing the eventual all-out war against the people.

So, what do you think?
And is the mod suitable for MP anyway?

Click to expand...

Well I suppose it will be suitable. I was told that TAC improved the Multiplayer part of the game. Am I right?

Robert Surcouf said:

I love your idea!
I love your three kinds of Knowledge!

Click to expand...

Again ?
Well ok, I only have about 30 more concepts / ideas to go.

Ok, I will put it on our "Planned" list.
We will simply see, when we will implement.

Maybe we should open a separate thread for brainstorming the details / the knowledges sometime ?

Robert Surcouf said:

But, we will probably try to implement the "native raids" feature first.

Click to expand...

Absolutely agree.

Robert Surcouf said:

Well I suppose it will be suitable. I was told that TAC improved the Multiplayer part of the game. Am I right?

Click to expand...

About our features:
Yes, we will do our best to have them suitable for Multiplayer.

About TAC (which we will base on):
I think the TAC-team can answer best.

Astat said:

.... and the "huge mods" (AoD, DoaNE) make the game far too big and probably cause MP desyncs as well.

Click to expand...

Hm, how should I say it ?
By integrating TAC (a very huge mod) and adding many of our own features and many features of other modder we like,
this mod wil also become very huge.

Astat said:

Additionally, pirates appearing too soon would look weird to me...

Click to expand...

Do not worry, we will create a well balanced feature.

Astat said:

And is the mod suitable for MP anyway?

Click to expand...

Robert Surcouf said:

Well I suppose it will be suitable. I was told that TAC improved the Multiplayer part of the game. Am I right?

Click to expand...

raystuttgart said:

About our features:
Yes, we will do our best to have them suitable for Multiplayer.

About TAC (which we will base on):
I think the TAC-team can answer best.

Click to expand...

ray and Robert are creating a modmod (or submod) for TAC 2.03, the final TAC-version which isn't released yet.

The actual version of TAC is TAC 2.02b. The PBEM-mode of TAC 2.02b can be used without any problems. It isn't possible to trade directly with other players, but that is an error of vanilla version. If you wish to use another MP-mode, you will have problems. We are working to fix these errors.

We have the ambition that the final version (TAC 2.03) won't have any MP-bugs. Unfortunately we have gained the experience that nearly each new feature could produce new MP-bugs and that these new bugs often will be detected a few months later yet. Okay, new TAC-features are not planned. But when you ask the TAC Project Team whether Religion and Revolution will contain MP-bugs, then we can't give you an accurate answer. But I believe that it would be a wonder if the first versions of this submod won't contain new MP-bugs. ray and Robert are modders, no magicians.