Corporation: The Power of Sushi

In conducting an analysis for my previous post, I noticed something interesting about how the Aluminum Co. and Creative Constructions fit together. It looks as if when a city has both corporations, the Aluminum Co. turns every source of coal that the city has access to into a source of aluminum which Creative Constructions can then use. That could make the Aluminum Co. a useful partner to Creative Constructions when pursuing a cultural victory.
 
nbarclay said:
One issue with corporations is that big maps have more resources, which can make corporations more powerful (and more expensive to maintain).
Click to expand...

On a large map, resources have less of an effect (and less of a cost) for corporations.
 
cool thread... I used sushi in three of my already huge culture cities to finish out a cultural victory. I was actually fortunate enough to found the corp myself even though it was so late in the game (like 1900s LOL). I had like + 8 food or something sick... ^.^
 
MrCynical:

Just doing some lazy afternoon thinking here.... I notice that in your analysis for AlCo and Ethanol, you did not mention the science bonus that comes with those corporations.... any thoughts on that?
 
jkp1187 said:
Just doing some lazy afternoon thinking here.... I notice that in your analysis for AlCo and Ethanol, you did not mention the science bonus that comes with those corporations.... any thoughts on that?
Click to expand...

Well Standard Ethanol clashes with Sushi, so I hardly ever bother with it. I don't think a few beakers is much compensation. OK, it can push your research a little higher, even if you're at 100%, but the conversion rate isn't that good, and you have no flexibility as you have with food. As to Aluminium Co, the science bonus there is marginally more useful as sit doesn't clash with a food corp, and so could theoretically stack with it. You're only processing one resource type though, so you won't get that much of a boost, and it blocks mining inc.

I'll put in a mention of the science bonus from the resource corps when I get round to rewriting the article (and when the patch shows up).
 
i would like to respectfully disagree with science cities taking food resources as the optimal strategy
since aluminum can be present in both cities it doesnt matter.

i make 2 assumptions:

1. the city is already at full capacity for exploiting commerce generating squares and any additional food will simply add science specialists
2. that the city has all improvement buildings for science oxford and have oxford

for sushi 28 resources would be consumed to hire 7 scientists which would yield 21 beakers and would be multiplied into 65.1 beakers. 21*(1+.25+.25+.25+.25+1+.1)

for ethanol 11 resources would be consumed to create 22 beakers which would be multiplied into 68.2 beakers.

now for more assumptions...
you are already trading for rice if you have sushi. whatever overlap there is in this rice amount is more efficiently converted into beakers via ethanol.
you are free to trade for sugar and corn which you would only need a small amount of considering you are getting rice.

i think putting ethanol and aluminum in your oxford city for purely scientific bonii might be more efficient. the key would be to found ethanol in the oxford city.

just adding in fully cottaged river squares for 8 commerce and 100% science rate its 38 resources for the sushi, and 31 for the ethanol. thatd be 7 scientists and 5 squares of river cottage on sushi's side generating 61 beakers, and 31 resources generating 62 beakers.

its only at the 46 resource point that sushi pulls away, and this assumes you have 9 fully cottaged river squares to spare in your BFC.
 
@Mrt144; while I can see your point, I don't agree some of your maths will hold in a real game. For example;

for sushi 28 resources would be consumed to hire 7 scientists which would yield 21 beakers and would be multiplied into 65.1 beakers. 21*(1+.25+.25+.25+.25+1+.1)

for ethanol 11 resources would be consumed to create 22 beakers which would be multiplied into 68.2 beakers.
Click to expand...

If I'm going to be running that many specialists, then I'm going to be running representation, so Sushi will be giving twice the beaker output you've calculated here. 28 sushi resources would in this case be giving 130.2 beakers relative to ethanol's 68.2. With the advent of Cristo Redentor, there are strong arguments for running representation anyway in all but the strictest CEs.

just adding in fully cottaged river squares for 8 commerce and 100% science rate its 38 resources for the sushi, and 31 for the ethanol. thatd be 7 scientists and 5 squares of river cottage on sushi's side generating 61 beakers, and 31 resources generating 62 beakers.
Click to expand...

Here my objection is that on the vast majority of map types, seafood is more abundant than the ethanol resources (and rice counts for both). Seafood also clumps more, making it easier to trade for it. 38 sushi resources isn't that hard on the larger map sizes, but I've never come close to 30 of the ethanol ones.

Finally, Sushi has considerable advantages in any city type thanks to the flexibility of food (Gp farms, production cities, food poor sites, etc). It's easily the best to found for other purposes. Founding the ethanol one is costing you an extra GP (and probably slightly more maintenance since you can't have both in the Wall Street city). Aluminium there is slightly more argument for, since it doesn't clash with Sushi, but coal is rarely that abundant. It's not bad for overseas spread though, and you could certainly add it to your science cities if you lack mining inc.

There's also the issue that Sushi shows up so much earlier than Ethanol. You could even argue that the larger cities will give more commerce thanks to trade routes, though that's a two edged sword due to health/happiness issues.
 
MrCynical said:
@Mrt144; while I can see your point, I don't agree some of your maths will hold in a real game. For example;



If I'm going to be running that many specialists, then I'm going to be running representation, so Sushi will be giving twice the beaker output you've calculated here. 28 sushi resources would in this case be giving 130.2 beakers relative to ethanol's 68.2. With the advent of Cristo Redentor, there are strong arguments for running representation anyway in all but the strictest CEs.



Here my objection is that on the vast majority of map types, seafood is more abundant than the ethanol resources (and rice counts for both). Seafood also clumps more, making it easier to trade for it. 38 sushi resources isn't that hard on the larger map sizes, but I've never come close to 30 of the ethanol ones.

Finally, Sushi has considerable advantages in any city type thanks to the flexibility of food (Gp farms, production cities, food poor sites, etc). It's easily the best to found for other purposes. Founding the ethanol one is costing you an extra GP (and probably slightly more maintenance since you can't have both in the Wall Street city). Aluminium there is slightly more argument for, since it doesn't clash with Sushi, but coal is rarely that abundant. It's not bad for overseas spread though, and you could certainly add it to your science cities if you lack mining inc.

There's also the issue that Sushi shows up so much earlier than Ethanol. You could even argue that the larger cities will give more commerce thanks to trade routes, though that's a two edged sword due to health/happiness issues.
Click to expand...

well I just wanted to put it out there that sushi might not be the de facto choice for your main science city.
 
MrCynical said:
@Mrt144; while I can see your point, I don't agree some of your maths will hold in a real game. For example;



If I'm going to be running that many specialists, then I'm going to be running representation, so Sushi will be giving twice the beaker output you've calculated here. 28 sushi resources would in this case be giving 130.2 beakers relative to ethanol's 68.2. With the advent of Cristo Redentor, there are strong arguments for running representation anyway in all but the strictest CEs.



Here my objection is that on the vast majority of map types, seafood is more abundant than the ethanol resources (and rice counts for both). Seafood also clumps more, making it easier to trade for it. 38 sushi resources isn't that hard on the larger map sizes, but I've never come close to 30 of the ethanol ones.

Finally, Sushi has considerable advantages in any city type thanks to the flexibility of food (Gp farms, production cities, food poor sites, etc). It's easily the best to found for other purposes. Founding the ethanol one is costing you an extra GP (and probably slightly more maintenance since you can't have both in the Wall Street city). Aluminium there is slightly more argument for, since it doesn't clash with Sushi, but coal is rarely that abundant. It's not bad for overseas spread though, and you could certainly add it to your science cities if you lack mining inc.

There's also the issue that Sushi shows up so much earlier than Ethanol. You could even argue that the larger cities will give more commerce thanks to trade routes, though that's a two edged sword due to health/happiness issues.
Click to expand...

Right, but you might not always have the choice to run Representation, due to war or other emergencies. In general, I agree that Sushi is a helpful corporation to run...but, in some specific situations, it may be better to have one of the other corporations in your Oxford city to max science output there.
 
OK, I've updated the article to reflect the changes in patch 3.13, and to cover some of the points raised in this thread. I'll probably keep tweaking it over the next few days as I should get a better idea of how the AI handles the changes with more games.
 
About AI:s.
Mao built Mining Inc. in my game and he spams it to everyone and stockpiles horsehockyloads of Iron or any metals he can get over. His production bonuses are pretty damn big and his Mining Inc. HQ earns 1k :gold: without housing a Wall Street. Large Terra Map, Low Sea Level.

I'm destroying the HQ soon and will gloat when his economy crumbles. :mad:
 
I cannot seem to found corporations. If I have the correct Great Person, the necessary resources, and correct technologies, it still shows the option grayed out. Is there anything I'm missing?
 
lordomni said:
I cannot seem to found corporations. If I have the correct Great Person, the necessary resources, and correct technologies, it still shows the option grayed out. Is there anything I'm missing?
Click to expand...

Lordomni, can you post a save file? That would be helpful.
 
lordomni said:
I cannot seem to found corporations. If I have the correct Great Person, the necessary resources, and correct technologies, it still shows the option grayed out. Is there anything I'm missing?
Click to expand...

Probably you're in State Property. Switch to something else and you'll be able to do it.
 
From OP:
Avoid Standard Ethanol unless you are literally facing destruction for lack of oil.
Click to expand...
Regarding Standard Ethanol: It turns corn, sugar, and rice into oil. This is a mechanism that largely ensures enough oil for all of the players that are still alive at the advent of plastics. Whereas you could expect a few players (hopefully AIs) to have no access to oil and thus be blunted/vulnerable, StandEth changes that resource distribution. It may be wise to try to establish StandEth in one of your own cities and not spread it, if you want to deny oil to certain competitors. I do agree that it isn't particularly valuable to own yourself, unless you can combine it with AluminumCo for a science boost.

Thanks MrCynical for the article, and to others who have contributed. Corporations add a new dimension to an already fantastic game, but I do hope that future patches refine the way that the AI implements them. :crazyeye:
 
I would make a similar point about "the other food corp," usually Cereal Mills but on some maps perhaps Sushi - it may be worth founding for denial purposes alone.
 
Hmmm...this brings a more interesting aspect to the UN Resolution for the Environmentalism civic. If you can force the AIs into environmentalism and spam away with your corporations, the 25% increased costs could be lethal to them. Nice!
 
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