[BTS] The History of Three Kingdoms

I like this mod quite a lot. But I gotta say due to the massive size of the map and numbers of cities/civs, it's quite a discouraging to attempt for Domination or even Conquest.

Right now, I am playing a game as Liu Bei with Diplo, Culture Victories turned off. I've been dragging and forcing myself to conquer China! :)

Forgot to add: I wish I have some kind of WMD on my hand to quicken the pace :D
 
Good idea in general, but, eh, are you serious, spells? Our heroes won't die (if you choose not let them ), or at least won't die in the way that you have imagined. They don't fight alone, they lead.

I think I did not talk about implementing spells in this mod... when I said there IS a spell, I was referring to FFH. I think my post was clear enough.

Though, you probably want to give heroes special abilities, like recruit or increase morale or whatever. I would still not call those abilities "spells".

And to AP, cultural victories are getting boring now, if you manage to pull a non-cultural (translate: domination) win with a lesser leader, people will appreciate it more. (and let truth be told; all RFC players know that AP is not so much of a pacifist!!)
 
Speaking of pacifism...Liu Yao is the perfect example: wage war to prevent war. The makers of the mod had seen fit that you're at war with Sun Ce at the beginning, and yet you have a lot in common with him, including religion and your main rival, Yuan Shu. Liu Biao is perfectly innocuous once you trade something with him, and Cao Cao is never going to bother you this far away.

So what to do? A strategic retreat is called for:I gave Po Yang (the city where most of Sun Ce's elite starting troops are attacking) to Yuan Shu. The AI is so stupid that it won't wage another war while at war, so essentially since I had no further contact with Sun Ce, we made peace. Immediately he was pleased with me because of religion and our common enemy, Yuan Shu, so I recaptured Po Yang and some more. As soon as he has built the shrine for Division, he met Ma Teng, who vassalized to him and guess who they declared on? The very same Li Jue who I also declared on--the problem of warlike Sun Ce solved.

From then it's just a matter of wonders (having a marble around helps with the Music Bureau and unfortunately I got beat to the Summer Palace, but with lots of great engineers around I was even able to build the Yue Yang Tower in Yue Yang! :lol: At the end Yuan Shu declared war on me, and so I bought Sun Ce into a war with him and I captured his capital, which made him vassalize to me.

Spoiler :



 

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BTW, if anybody is interested, Bai Bo can use the same trick by giving Luoyang to Yuan Shao from the beginning who then will probably war on Cao Cao soon, while you expand north and westward. Converting to Unification helps to stop the war with Cao Cao too. The fact that you have iron in your northern city means you can build swordsmen which cannot be said for a lot of other civs.

Gongsun Zan, however, has no such luck. Gongsun Du won't take your city under attack and Yuan Shao has WAAAY too many Xiandeng swordsmen to start with. I think retreat is part of the answer, but where to? You're going to lose at least 2 cities, if not more.

Same thing for Lu Bu, since he's surrounded on the west by Cao Cao. The only hope would be to capture some of Cao's cities with just 1 archer and hope he makes peace, then build up and crush him later. Conquering Kong Rong would also help getting more iron and happiness.
 
That's actually bad news for Yan Baihu, Wang Lang and Liu Yao--no more phony wars to kiss ass with Sun Ce.:lol:
Yuan Shu should be Yuan Shao's vassal more often.
More to the point is that historically Cao Cao should be able to vassalize basically the whole north (including Zhang Yan, Zhang Xiu, the Gongsuns, Ma Teng, Han Sui, Zhang Lu) even if they are far away from him.
 
Forgot to add: I wish I have some kind of WMD on my hand to quicken the pace :D

What an idea...the battle of Red Cliff brings to mind the loss of thousands of ships and soldiers. What if instead of a nuke, anybody who has enough gold or espionage (e.g. 5000) can convert it into a massive strategic/magic advantage like that in Red Cliff, allowing you to obliterate/seriously damage 1 tile of defenders. This would allow a much quicker domination/conquest.
 
I always thought the mod was a little unfair to Gongsun Zan since the battle of Yijing wasn't supposed to be lost until 198, whereas right now, they lose the 2nd turn due to Yuan Shao's massive starting northern army. Which gave me an idea: how about playing Zhang Yang, loyalist that he is, and capturing Ye early on since Yuan Shao's so busy playing warlord up north? Sure enough, if you open borders with him and scout around until he leaves Ye with just 1 archer, your 4 starting troops, sitting 2 tiles SW of Ye, you can easily capture it with the loss of 1-2 troops, and with Han Dan and Dun Qiu gone, he has lost his contact with Cao Cao and his 2 irons. Shang Dang and Le Ping are actually very good cities enough to support numerous early troops, and you have one of the 2 purebred horses in the map (the other one being Ma Teng). So I made peace and had a war with Li Jue after I eliminated Zhang Yan my neighbor.

Needless to say, gave in to Cao's every whim including switching my allegiance to Unification and declaring on Liu Bei and Liu Zhang. Flipped 2 of his cities though.

Spoiler :




Yuan Shao later declared war on me with an unwilling Gongsun Zan as vassal, so I replayed the battle of Yijing, this time with him in defeat. All he could muster were gold archers and horse archers, since he had no iron. He was left with 2 cities and vassalized to Gongsun Du. :lol:

Spoiler :
 

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I think other than the easy ones (mostly the first 3) conquest/domination is way too cumbersome, and so I'm talking mostly about cultural victory in Monarch.

Easy:
*Cao Cao
*Sun Ce
*Yuan Shao
*Liu Zhang
*Liu Biao
*Liu Bei

Moderate (a couple tricks needed):
*Dong Zhuo (great spy for techs)
*Yuan Shu (forget about Chen and get the emperor!)
*Liu Yao (retreat)
*Zhang Xiu (stop being a vassal and getting Bei Hai early)
*Zhang Lu (join the fun in getting Chang An)
*Zhang Yang (get Ye early)
*Kong Rong (culture and stone wonders)
*Gongsun Du (kill Kong Rong first)
*Wang Lang (kiss Sun Ce's ass)
*Ma Teng (build up enough troops against Dong Zhuo and trash the iron east of Chang An, capture Xin An early on for iron)

Hard (the ones I've left for last and my thoughts about possible strategies):
*Lu Bu (RETREAT, attack [Kong Rong] and attack [together with your pals])
Gongsun Zan (?retreat how far and build back up)
Zhang Yan (?get Zhang Yang's lands)
Bai Bo (give Luoyang away and build up)
Han Sui (get Wuwei before Ma Teng vassalizes and Chang An)
Yan Baihu (get the iron that Wang Lang has and defend against Sun Ce, or switch to Unification)
Liu whatever his name is (prince of Chen) (whip enough defenders and send a regiment to get Kong Rong's lands early, need plenty of culture against Xuchang)
 
I'm just talking about the smaller preset map, I don't think Meng Huo is available on that map . (Would love to play Zhuge Liang against Meng Huo and capture his capital three times :lol:).
 
Tech path: swordsmanship (barracks), ancient dictionary (need those catapults), military advisor (and build it in Wuwei), anesthesia, and trade for other nonessential stuff like shipbuilding, way of the ancestors and bridge building.

So in Monarch mode, nobody will trade you iron or even copper, even with your purebred horse. The best solution therefore is to prevent Li Jue from ever using that prebuilt iron mine east of Chang An, and to get your own iron from Xin An, where across the straits Bai Bo has an iron. (sent 3 inital swift riders over through Zhang Xiu's territory) You do have to expand your cultural boundaries to get it first so I used noble school for the 100% culture and built a family altar there. (Of course the Terracotta Army is impossible to build in time with no stone around). Sitting right east of Chang An has the added advantage that any troops coming from the east (Hong Nong) will be easily destroyed before they reach Chang An.

Chang An was captured with the loss of 2 swordsmen, 4 catapults, and a swift rider. All against just 3 measly troops, none of them a halberdier. :mad:
From then on, I will probably play it much like Li Jue, but I'm going to be tough getting all that culture so late.

Han Sui is (right now at least) my partner in war, after a bribe/tech exchange. He doesn't know what's coming to him next...:D

Spoiler :


Addendum:
The end result was that I didn't declare on Han Sui since he vassalized to Cao Cao the turn I was going to annihilate him (and the turn before I was going to see if he would vassalize to me since I just learned Laws of Wei). Too bad, but I flipped lots of his cities.
Interesting game in that both Liu Yao and Yuan Shu both survived till the end.

Spoiler :
 

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In history, Lu Bu was a fickle character, switching allegiances quickly. Yuan Shu, Yuan Shao, Liu Bei, Dong Zhuo and another character who doesn't appear in the mod have all been unfortunate enough to taste his infidelity. No wonder he has the shrine for Pure Force. But to win in the mod, he has to eschew his militant ways and go for a cultural win.

So the problems are:
1. The obvious stack of Cao catapults, swordsmen and swift riders coming your way towards Lu Xian which is situated on a plains, simply undefensible. You can kill one or two of them, but then even with the units coming from you capital you'll lose.
2. No stone, horse, iron or copper anywhere! (And I thought Lu Bu rode a great big horse called Red Hare--maybe next time he can start with a super promoted knight/great general named Lu Bu):lol:
3. The closest Cao city Ji Yin is fortified with a promoted crossbowman.

Opportunities:
1. Kong Rong and his two warriors and his great land (stone and iron if you expand enough), who's at war with your potential ally up north, Yuan Shao
2. Liu Bei is a reasonable guy and has no contact with Cao Cao initially
3. Qiao is only usually defended by a simple archer, since Cao is busy conquering Bai Bo.
4. Yuan Shu is equally weak like you and much more hated by everybody. After they waste their little army on Chen, and Liu Bei is at war with them, it would be too good to not capture another shrine.
5. All your (potential) cities have Revival.

Therefore:
1. Build 1 warrior and promote him to anti-cavalry battalion on the 3rd move. Kill something of Cao's before retreating (like a catapult).
2. Give Lu Xian to Liu Bei and ask for a fish (all he'll give you at this time) for peace treaty.
3. Send initial units to Bei Hai and Qu Cheng and finish poor Kong Rong off, open borders with Yuan Shao.
4. Other units from your capital go to Qiao and capture it.
5. Convert to Revival after switching to normal or strong.
6. Make peace with Cao by giving him Qiao back--you can never keep it anyway.
7. Cultural victory eventually (building a city close by your former shrine, capturing some Yuan Shu land, trying to placate Cao Cao...what I'm playing on right now)
This strategy probably won't work with any higher level of difficulty.

Spoiler :


 

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This has got to be the hardest game so far. So I converted to Unification and gifted silk to Cao, got him just to annoyed. I didn't take any chances and forged relationships with Yuan Shao and Sun Ce. I was just about to invade Yuan Shu when he vassalized to Cao, and spies started sabotaging my farms...well, I knew it was coming. Signed defensive pacts with Yuan Shao and Sun Ce, and when the war came, I was prepared. Even though my tech was behind, Cao was so busy fending off invasions from both ends (I was sorry I couldn't get Liu Biao to go along) that I was able to capture Dong Ping, Pu Yang, Ji Yin and Gu Yang (Yuan Shu's city). Even Li Jue joined the fun and captured Xin An. Yuan Shao won the battle of Guandu and made peace, so I made peace by giving Cao the city of Gu Yang (useless since my culture is strong there).
I'm only about 10000 culture each with my 3 cities since I had to build so much military.
Just an aside: I had to switch back to Revival since Liu Bei was about to stab me in the back, so switching back made him friendly again and I got some cash from him as a peace offering. Ah, the fickle Lu Bu...:lol:

Denouement:
Yuan Shao declared on Cao and captured most of his cities. I joined the fun and got Qiao, Chen and Gu Yang. Switched back to Unification to please Yuan Shao who in the end, declared on Sun Ce and his vassals, while I was sitting in the middle and flipped 2 of Yuan's cities. (Lu Xian and Dong Lai should have flipped but somehow didn't) Note how Xu Chang and Chen Liu are reduced to a shadow of their former glory. I was the owner in deed, if not in name, of "Central Plain." :lol:
The circled cities are strategic (well, they're the only possible cities to be built with the 2-away rule) in flipping cities.
Spoiler :


 

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yea Lu Bu is pretty tough. I actually tried him first, just cause he was always a badass in all the dynasty warriors series. Bad mistake. I could barely survive at first, after a couple restarts I was actually not only able to hold Lu Xian, but actually was able to capture Pu Yang relatively quickly into the game. But Cao still wouldn't budge, so I eventually just gave Pu Yang to him to end the war.

It was crazy though, I had to do retarted things like leave my capitol empty of defenders, to mount enough attackers to actually stand a chance against Cao Cao's MASSIVE starting army.

I rarely actually attacked, usually letting Cao Cao do that for me, trying to get hills/forest and across river bonuses whenever possible. I'm personally not a fan of cultural victory so I didn't even try for it, but I was at least able to stay alive and expand a bit.

ps. Lu Bu's capitol is terrible.... 90 turns for a school, forget it. Not only that, but no horse? no copper? no iron? its just not fair for Lu Bu. I just pumped military out of it the whole time. Once I finally managed to get military advisor in Lu Xian though, he couldn't kill me if he sent all his minions.

it was fun.


BTW there are some weird things going on with some of the tech buttons. Sometimes they appear normal, and sometimes not. for example, when "Way of the Celestial Masters", "The way of Peace", and "Drainage System", became available, the button icon was bright pink and did not look correct. I researched a different technology, and when I was done, and saw the options again, they looked normal. Kinda odd.....

I went into check the XML's for you, but most of the new techs are written in chinese and a search for any of the above techs yielded zero results.

A general rule of thumb though, if your pointing to an atlas it should look like this;

<Button>, ,Art/Interface/Buttons/TechTree_Atlas.dds,4,11</Button>

and to just a normal button;

<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/TechTree/horsemanship.dds</Button>

nearly all of your entries already look like that, but still some of the buttons come up looking pink..... sometimes... one of the weirdest bugs I've came across. Some of your buttons defines do have spaces in them though.... Just as an example, some of them look like;

<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/TechTree/horseman ship.dds</Button>

I would recommend putting a _ there in the file name and changing that. Not sure how it handles spaces.

Also, sometimes the music that is used bothers me, but I can get by it. Its just strange hearing Elizabeth's music when I'm thinking about ancient China.

But you did say "little traces of Civ4 left", and sorry but I disagree. I see thousands of traces of Civ4 left, and it begins at the main menu, and really never ends.

With all that said now, Great Job on the mod! Its really fun to play. Keep adding to it please, it'll just continue to get better the more you add ;)
 
OK, now I know exactly what do to with Lu Bu to begin the game... Draft in Pei Xiang, move everything up north, stay on the roads. Build warrior in Lu Xiang, and upgrade to anti-cav battalion asap. That'll give you 2 anti-cav battalions in 3 turns. You'll need them if you want to kill Cao Cao's main army really quick. Move 2 crossbows and 1 axe onto the hills/wheat west of Lu Xiang and force Cao to move onto the dye's. When his whole army is there hit it with all your crossbows and do clean up with your anti-cav and axemen.

After that you can do whatever you want...

btw thats on monarch/normal

edit: If you really want to lay the wood on Cao Cao, build another warrior in Lu Xiang, by the time you have most of his army dead, you'll generate a great general, attach it to the warrior, poof now you have 3 anti cav, and 1 in more turn you'll have another down in Pei Xiang if you built one there. Cao Cao is crapping his pants at this point.

The last one is just after I made a peace deal with Cao Cao, forcing him to give me ancient dictionary (I almost already had it anyhow, but he wouldn't give anything else), and I had already claimed 3 of his cities, without ever losing 1 of mine.
 
That's another strategy on Lu Bu...the tricks are to not stay in Lu Xian since Cao's Xiandeng swordsmen are promoted for city attack and to kill those catapults before they merge with the cavalry. The fact that you have a positive cash flow initially makes the warrior promotion technique possible.
I'm a peaceful guy (unless I have to do so to win, I don't attack) so I made peace as soon as possible and even let Liu Bei keep my Lu Xian.
Have you played this game out yet? I bet you Cao Cao is gunning for you next with several massive armies if you haven't killed him yet.
But I still like getting iron earlier from Kong Rong and watching Cao get decimated by Yuan Shao.:lol:
 
Hey guys, the next release is on the way, hopefully within next 24 hours. Expect something great, but it will exceed it.;)
 
well I was playing as I wrote earlier... I've played it out a bit more now. Killed Kong Rong or whatever his name is to the north, but Lei Bei culture flipped two of my cities and now I'm preparing a massive trebuchet, xbow, and tiger sword army to go kill him, my goal is to have enough trebuchets to kill the cities 200% defenses in 1 turn, then hit them with about 5 xbows, then clean up the mess with swords. I have this one crazy unit with like 87 xp that is medic III, so he keeps the stack moving.

I've also now taken one of Yuan Shu's cities, since he though he was hard and DoW'd me, but I took one of his cities and made peace. Oh and killed the one neon green guy, that always dies, just cause he was getting annoying, with his 1 city.

Surprisingly enough Cao Cao hasn't declared war on me.... I think its cause he knows he can't touch me. Heck, I'm even causually at war with Sun Ce and all his vassal cronies right now, though not a single battle has occurred, except 1 war galley battle.

Once you get a decent foothold its like any other civ game, its only a matter of time before everyone is my vassal or dead, though now everyone is starting to hate me except a few big powerhouses that I've been actively trying to improve relations.

its been a fun game :)

and good to hear stmartin :thumbsup:
 
You know, with your shrine for espionage it's much easier to use a spy and wipe out the defenses by inducing a revolt--you need about 1300 per city, and half less if you send the spy in 5 turns before. Or 18 trebuchets (18 x 12 with promoted barrage) or so will work too. Chang An will need about 25 trebuchets (and unpromoted trebuchets without barrage won't work at all), and if a cavalry survives the charge, they'll all be damaged.

Send a spy towards Cao and you'll be surprised at the stacks he's prepared against you.

I guess I'm just not much of a fighter. :lol:
 
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