[Speculation] Italian States/Papal States/Venice

Why does everybody think the Holy Roman Empire was always fractured.:(
It only turned into fractured duchies fighting each other during the late middle-ages.
For most of it's medieval history Germany was more unified then France.:rolleyes:

Sorry for going off topic.

By the time the Golden Bull rolled in, the Empire as an unitary state was done for - attempts would have been made later, but the Imperial authority was defied more than once. And the last attempt to rein in everyone (the big chaos between the Schmalkaldic League and the Thirty Years War) ended up in disastrous failure. But if we look at 1200 or so...yes, there was a moment when France was worse off than the HRE. But they got better - the Empire did not.
 
By the time the Golden Bull rolled in, the Empire as an unitary state was done for - attempts would have been made later, but the Imperial authority was defied more than once. And the last attempt to rein in everyone (the big chaos between the Schmalkaldic League and the Thirty Years War) ended up in disastrous failure. But if we look at 1200 or so...yes, there was a moment when France was worse off than the HRE. But they got better - the Empire did not.

:agree:

This is what I meant. The Empire was unified up until 1250, then Frederic II died and imperial authority started to fall apart. While France was starting to form as a more unified power in the west around that.
 
:agree:

This is what I meant. The Empire was unified up until 1250, then Frederic II died and imperial authority started to fall apart. While France was starting to form as a more unified power in the west around that.

Anyway yes - if we go for the "important predecessor in the same area, divided in small principalities and a short history as an unitary state", we would have the Holy Roman Empire as a civilization, with city-states to represent the various polities before 1871.
 
Italy as an united nation got a wobbly record that is not fully in the red (one defeat, in WWII, mostly caused by the population revolting against the Axis government, and one against a nation that had modernized with no one actually caring to notice).

I was referring to post-unification and at the strategic level not in the sense of which side they ultimately came out on. One could argue that Russia was on the victorious side in World War I, but that would be quite a strange argument. Italy, likewise, was marked by brutal battles against Austria in the Alps, but battles where they nonetheless failed to achieve their strategic objectives. They managed to receive some of the objectives anyway in the treaty, but that's not the same thing (a similar thing happened in their fighting against Austria in the Franco-Prussian War). World War II was virtually an unmitigated disaster militarily for Italy, resulting in defeats in Yugoslavia and Greece that required German intervention to stabilize (leaving out allied invasion of Sicily and then mainland Greece, which resulted in Italian surrender). Even Ethiopia didn't work as well as expected.
 
I can't see a Venetian civ either as what would their city list look like? Venice, New Venice, New Venice II, Newer Venice?
 
I can't see a Venetian civ either as what would their city list look like? Venice, New Venice, New Venice II, Newer Venice?

They had a fair few colonies and regions down the Adriatic, I'll sort out a list later
 
While I'm rather skeptical that an Italian civ would make it in, and I wouldn't be terribly thrilled if one did, I certainly would admit that, given the mechanics, Venice would seem like a rather logical choice (for those wondering about cities, Venice actually once controlled a great deal of land along the Adriatic and Aegean).

For a more unlikely rambling, perhaps Florence? I'm sure Firaxis would work Machiavelli in somehow, if such a thing were to occur...
 
I much prefer Venice. It's a much "cleaner" candidate that doesn't have nearly the same difficulties.

I would be very happy with Venice and it would fit in with the new trade route system. Florence would be an obvious choice for a culture civ. Genoa would be another interesting choice. I think we will see more trade/culture related civs in this expansion anyway.
 
the thing with CSes is they're rarely located in a clump together like the city states of italy were. i don't think CSes as a concept are a very good stand-in for what italy would be like in the game. additionally, CSes represent more than simply a city state; they also represent countries not represented by a civilization. where are the city states in our real world today? as far as i know, there are none. however, the CS 'geneva' would instead represent switzerland as a whole.

another strong argument for the inclusion of italy is that the design of rome in no way encompasses all of italian history, as stated on the first page. there are two early age UUs that are roman, and even the UA 'the glory of rome' is in direct contention with the sense of competition between italian city states that came to define them around the renaissance. there is nothing which represents the cultural output of italy, despite rome being the art centre of europe for around half a millennium. there is nothing which represents the economic power of the guilds and the bankers. it is for these reasons -- as well as that it fits perfectly with the theme of the expansion -- that i think italy will be included, if not to say that it should be included.
 
really? i don't see it very often. maybe one next to the other occasionally
 
I would be very happy with Venice and it would fit in with the new trade route system. Florence would be an obvious choice for a culture civ. Genoa would be another interesting choice. I think we will see more trade/culture related civs in this expansion anyway.

We start approaching City-State territory, though. I guess Florence was the Grand Duchy of Tuscany. However, the geographic area covered diminishes.

Why not just have cultural city-states give tourism bonuses, so you can get it from Florence that way?
 
the thing with CSes is they're rarely located in a clump together like the city states of italy were. i don't think CSes as a concept are a very good stand-in for what italy would be like in the game. additionally, CSes represent more than simply a city state; they also represent countries not represented by a civilization. where are the city states in our real world today? as far as i know, there are none. however, the CS 'geneva' would instead represent switzerland as a whole.

another strong argument for the inclusion of italy is that the design of rome in no way encompasses all of italian history, as stated on the first page. there are two early age UUs that are roman, and even the UA 'the glory of rome' is in direct contention with the sense of competition between italian city states that came to define them around the renaissance. there is nothing which represents the cultural output of italy, despite rome being the art centre of europe for around half a millennium. there is nothing which represents the economic power of the guilds and the bankers. it is for these reasons -- as well as that it fits perfectly with the theme of the expansion -- that i think italy will be included, if not to say that it should be included.

There are still quite a few city states around: Singapore, Monaco, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Brunei, Qatar, Bahrain, depending on your exact definition of city state.
 
The capital‘name is not a problem.The Kingdom of Italy's first capital was Turin and then the Florence.Meanwhihe the Papal State was even the last regions to be uintied into Italy.So Rome can appear behind in city lists.
 
The capital‘name is not a problem.The Kingdom of Italy's first capital was Turin and then the Florence.Meanwhihe the Papal State was even the last regions to be uintied into Italy.So Rome can appear behind in city lists.

Exactly,
Roman Rome VS Italian Rome (my City :)) isn't the problem.

Italy isn't included in Roman Civilization...
Germans have Panzers, a reinassance unit and an anciet UA
Denmark have Viking berserkers and Mountain IXX century troops.
Romans have 2 roman units and a Roman UA!
 
I think there is a lot of misconception about history of Italy after the fall of the Roman empire.

This was not only not the same political entity, but also one quite different ethnically and culturally - people of renaissance Italy were descendants of various "barbarian" tribes (Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Longobards etc.), bringing their own customs and interbreeding with the local Roman populace - so comparisons to Russia -> Soviet Union continuity are simply incorrect.

The best analogy I can think of is the Ottomans replacing the Byzantines (who in turn replaced Greeks) - and while Ottomans shared the same capital with the Byzantines and considered themselves inheritors of Byzantium, they were quite different civilization.
 
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