Overall Civ Elimination Thread

Since several threads are coming to a close, and we have done all attributes that make a Civ unique, so I am going to make a Elimination thread for Civs as a whole. Same rules apply as all other elimination threads.

1. Poland
2. Inca
3. Korea
4. Maya
5. Aztec
6. Arabia
7. England
8. China
9. Germany
10. Zulu
11. Ethiopia
12. Portugal
13. Siam
14. Babylon
15. Sweden
16. Shoshone
17. Persia
18. Austria
19. Mongols
20. Spain
21. Rome
22. Songhai
23. Greece
24. Netherlands
25. Indonesia
26. Carthage
27. Huns
28. Assyria
29. Celts
30 The Ottomans
31 ~ Japan
32 ~ Egypt
33 ~ Polynesia
34 ~ Morocco
35 ~ The Iroquois
36 ~ Byzantium
37 ~ Brazil
38 ~ America
39 ~ Russia
40 ~ Venice
41 ~ India
42 ~ France
43 ~ Denmark

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 20
China- 21- China's ability allow it to kill people in the early game (gold from paper makers) mid game (CKN) and late game (SO MANY GG)
Danes- 20
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 20
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany-20
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17- There is no real connection between full health soldiers and shock/no oil units.
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 20
Zulu- 20

You left out Austria
+1 Austria Their ability is my personal favorite because you are able to play more builder like focusing on other aspects then military while also being able to expand your borders. Also the coffee shop is very good and makes the cultural game even easier. The hussar is not a bad unit.

-3 Venice While Venice is by no means bad I don't like the restrictions. Yes working around them allows for a very powerful empire and playing as them once was fun, they are way to different for constant play. Also they are the most start dependent civ to date. Also every time I've rolled a Venice game up I always end up with fantastic real estate surrounding my capital but I can't settle it! It frustrates me to no end.

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 20
China- 21-
Danes- 20
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 20
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany-20
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17-
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 17
Zulu- 20

+1 Germany: barbarian camps give you tons of gold and units, Hanse gives you tons more gold, and panzers are better than tanks (cheap Landsneckts were also amazing).

-3 Venice: it's a playable CS. Very powerful, I'll admit, but extremely limited.

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 20
China- 21-
Danes- 20
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 20
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany-21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17-
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 14
Zulu- 20

+1 to Indonesia, Spice Islanders makes for some really lucrative city trade routes early in the game and post patch the computer will go after you for your exclusive resources, and Candi now means you can have a bonus to great people production in all of your cities, not just the one on the river, as well as the free faith.

-3 to Celts, that UA is really start dependent and you have to pick between developing your tiles or having the free faith. UU is okay but early warmongering isn't nearly as good as it was in GnK. If the UA would allow you to get 2 faith for two forest tiles that'd solve the problem pretty much.

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21-
Danes- 20
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 20
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 21
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17-
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 14
Zulu- 20

-3 for Venice. I'll just play along and destroy venice like everyone else. Lets face it, its a decent civ, and very fun to play but it's limitations are to much. Its really annoying when you can't grab those resources just so close to your borders. Might as well play the one city challenge.

+1 for India. It's great for a cultural or science victory(Which is usually what I go for on lower difficulties) as it's UA lets you create tall cities which produce lots of science/culture, without you having to worry to much about happiness. For the UU and UB, both aren't bad but neither are they amazing. Although later in the game the UB gives you extra gold, I find by the time I've researched flight I'm earning about 90 to 120 gold per turn anyways, so it doesn't really matter.


America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21-
Danes- 20
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 20
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 21
Indonesia- 21
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 11
Zulu- 20

-3 for Indonesia. Never managed to get a game past 100 turns with them. UU is just bad gambling, UA is hard to exploit on most maps.

+1 for Spain. Now we have the same gambling done right. It's just the funniest civ to play (still leading to some restarts). I don't even care about their unique units.

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21-
Danes- 20
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 20
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 21
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 20
Venice- 11
Zulu- 20

America- 17
Arabia- 21
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21-
Danes- 17 3 votes against Venice before these guys were downvoted? Sigh... Denmark has the makings of an awesome civ, as their UUs and UA encourage a cool playstyle (costal raiders), but they don't good enough benefits from this to actually work very well.
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 20
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 21
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 20
Venice- 12 Wow that's a lot of Venice hate! Come on guys, I understand it comes down to playstyle, and Venice may not be super appealing to play as, but there are a LOT of worse civs in the game. Renaissance on these guys are monsters for either domination or diplomatic playstyles. You can't even say the UA is bad with the merchant being good (as was a common justification in the UA thread), because this is focusing on the potential of the civ itself. Double trade routes and the potential to get an easy 50 pop city while still having a massive income and all the city states in your pocket? That's not bad. Lets get some other civs off of here before we kill Venice.
Zulu- 20

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21-
Danes- 17
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 17
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 21
India- 21
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 20
Venice- 12
Zulu- 20

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21-
Danes- 17
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 17
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 21
India- 21
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 20
Venice- 12
Zulu- 20

Including my vote

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 21 - So fun, Jaguars are awesome and culture from kills is perfect for warmongering without maintence on culture buildings pulling you down
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21-
Danes- 14 - Boring
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 17
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 21
India- 21
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 20
Venice- 12
Zulu- 20

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 21
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21
Danes- 14
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 17
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 21
India- 21
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 21 Solid UA. Powerful UB and UU
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 20
Venice- 9 Gimmick civ. Unique but in the end shouldn't have been included.
Zulu- 20

OP, could you please clarify as to whether we're voting based on power or "fun factor"? I ask this because, in the last Civ Elimination Thread a year or so ago, Austria was like the second civ to get knocked out because it wasn't fun. If that's what we're voting on, fine, but I don't think it makes a very effective ranking.

We are voting on power.

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 21
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21
Danes- 11
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 17
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 21
India- 21
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polynesia- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 21
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 21
Venice- 9
Zulu- 20

Sweden-
These guys used to be a fairly meh civ back in G&K; however, with BNW's addition of three extra great people who really are not necessary at all if you are not going for a cultural victory, as well as AIs that are much more willing to make DoFs, Sweden has been brilliantly buffed to be in my opinion one of the strongest late game civs in the game.

Denmark-
Let's be honest here, there's really no nice way to put it: these guys are garbage. Absolutely useless. The only thing they may seem good for is naval domination, but if that is what you want, then there is zero justification in choosing these guys over the English or even the Ottomans. These guys have all around awful uniques and really should be next in line to be fixed.

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 21
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21
Danes- 8
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 17
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 22
India- 21
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polynesia- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 21
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 21
Venice- 9
Zulu- 20

Denmark...pretty much the worst civ in the game. Desperately needs to be reworked.
Inca. Best overall civ in the game for flexibility.

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 21
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21
Danes- 8
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 17
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 22 Love the upgrade, increased barb conversions means less frustration with the randomness, the midgame production bank which is almost like a second factory, a good economic UA and a great late game unit. There is never a weak period for Germany.
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 22
India- 21
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polynesia- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 21
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 21
Venice- 6 I think they were made to be more interesting and unique than "good." Pretty map dependent, not only on your own start but also where other civs and CSs are in relation to you. The great galleass really was a pet peeve of mine that people don't often bring up. With only one city to produce units and trade routes not being all that profitable in the medieval era they don't need a slow expensive UU. They need a fast cheap one that can cover all the ground necessary to protect their umpteen trade routes. A trireme can outrun them which means a smart opponent can essentially deny Venice use of their UA.
Zulu- 20

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 21
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21
Danes- 8
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 17
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 21
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 22
India- 21
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polynesia- 17
Portugal- 20
Rome- 21
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 21
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 21
Venice- 9
Zulu- 20

-3 Polynesia - their UU comes too early in the game to be of real use, their unique improvement isn't overall that great since mostly likely you'll never chain connect several of them, and their UA is map dependent. Plus I really hate Polynesia AI, since he constantly appears in EVERY SINGLE of my game. This guy just won't go away!

+1 Rome - giving positive was bit harder choice since so many civs are fun to play, but someone has to get one. Rome is overall nicely balanced. Their UU aren't all that impressive, but their UA makes them very flexible and adoptable to any type of victory, much like Greece and China.

notable mention - Siam - maybe the best UA of all civs, great unit (Dumbo) and Wat is very good UB, especially when you get jungle start.

I've never really done one of this before so I don't know the answer to a question. If it gets to the point where a civ is lower then 3 points does it still take all three points to knock them out or can I split it up. So if Denmark has 2 points can I remove it and one point from a second civ, say Venice, or can I just remove Denmark and not use my other point?

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 21
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 17
China- 21
Danes- 8
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 17
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 22
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 22
India- 21
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polynesia- 17
Portugal- 20
Rome- 21
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 21
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 21
Venice- 6
Zulu- 20

Including Vic's vote. I really think Venice is a top 10 civ. I don't understand why you all think they are so bad. In the UA thread you all had some justification if you treated the merchant of Venice as a separate thing, but it really seems to me that you guys don't like them more than anything. Would you really pick civs like Denmark, Songhai, Russia, Japan, India, Byzantium, the Celts, or America over Venice? Venice is unique and interesting, and really cool. They were the first civ I played with in BNW, and the second civ I tried in deity, because I thought that Venice would give me the best chance to win aside from Poland.

At least give me a Denmark elimination before them. Please?

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 21
Aztec- 21
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 18
China- 21
Danes- 8
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 17
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany- 22
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 22
India- 18
Indonesia- 18
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 17
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polynesia- 17
Portugal- 20
Rome- 21
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 21
Songhai- 20
Spain- 21
Sweden- 21
Venice- 6
Zulu- 20

Wow, so much hate for Venice. They are extremely boring to play, but they are not that bad. Last game messing around with them I ended up with 1k gold per turn and about 45,000 gold by turn 350. The only major down-side is trying to stay awake long enough to finish a game.

I'm not sure why India is escaping notice these days. They were often considered the worst Civ in the game and now all people can talk about is Japan, Germany, and Denmark. In short, they have the only UA that punishes you and the "bonus" of it has little effect in most games: tall games already have zero happiness issues; won't help wide games until very late and until that point you are punished for the double settle cost. UU isn't terrible, but not overpowering either. UB is junk.

Voted up Celts since I know in advance a lot of haters out there will try and wipe it out early. It doesn't matter if the UA is fading: once you establish a religion you don't need to worry about keeping the forest around. Yes, Ethiopia/Maya are better at the faith game than Celts, but they still have enough of a faith bonus to be one of the few in the long list of Civs (43) that can get religion with ease. Compare to the many generic Civs like Russia which have zero bonus towards the faith game. I'll take the enhanced shot at Tithe (along with other bonuses) over a few extra horses and iron.

Or worse: Byzantium, who is expected to form a religion with zero help in forming one.

Upgraded Picts are a solid unit with strength near long swords without needing to actually get long swords. You can go straight to Uni's with pseudo-long swords.

UB is underrated. There is a lull in happiness between colosseum and Ideology tenets with only +2 zoo's to bridge the gap. With Celt's ease in forming a religion (more happiness) and the Ceilidh Hall, they can just keep pushing that population growth like crazy. Try them in a slightly wider game (6 cities or so) and witness how good of a Civ they can actually be.