RA: The biggest Bug never fixed!!!

idontknow2011

Chieftain
Joined
Aug 12, 2011
Messages
16
I play deity, all standard setting. Just need to muster a small army, conquer my neighbours, sell conquered city to other AIs and get extremely rich. Then, sign a bunch of RAs to get advanced in technology. My record is to get modern armor out before 200 turns. Using this tactic, deity is just a joke!!! :)

My friends don't sell cities to get rich. But just with their own income to sign RA and farm GSes, getting advanced in technology is still easy. They even don't want to build research labs.:mad: Can you imagine they finish the tech tree before 250 turns with miserable 200 research points? :mischief:

We think the problem about RA is:

1) You can sign RA with everyone, even "guarded" AI. In reality, you need to be allies or friends to sign a RA.
2) RA is too cheap, Just need 350 coins to get a technology worthy of 5K+ research points. RA is never cheap in reality. This is ridiculous!

3) You can RA with renaissance AI to get future techs such as nanotechnology!(Added).

So, the fix is:

1) Can only sign RA with friendly AI. If relationship degraded within 30 turns, RA reward halved.
2) Modify the RA cost as below, or something like that:

150----)150×1= 150 (Ancient)
200----)150×2= 300 (Classic)
250----)150×3= 450 (Medieval)
250----)150×4= 600 (Renaissance)
300----)150×5= 750 (Industrial)
350----)150×6= 900 (Modern)
350----)150×8= 1200 (Future)
3) Lower RA reward for advanced CIV, for example, use median value of inferior CIV for RA reward counting(ArcaneSeraph's idea).

Hope developers can see this and make some change. :p Better to geld the powerful GSes with it too.
 
The system is better than the ancient one, but still very powerful. At least the player don't need to do tight micro to maximize the potential. Maybe they will tweak them for a next patch or expansion. There is also the gambit problem, AIs can DoW you anytime and break them. This creates an unbalanced environment for competition purposes.
 
I've tried to argue about the RAs being a bug / exploit / too powerful many times already but it doesn't seem to actually influence anyone. I've listed these exact problems before. Not only do they make research labs obsolete... but combining RAs and GSes you can basically make 90% of the buildings renaissance and later obsolete. They are rediculously powerful. You can easily surpass empires 10x your size in every measurably fashion with a minor pittance of hard research. People go so far as to give the AIs gold in order to sign an RA with them.

In my games I never use them. They ruin the game for me. If you play with them, you miss all the fun and IMO the spirit of the game. If you play without them, so many other options become more useful and enjoyable. Simple as that.

There are quite a few fixes. A scalable cost increase as you suggested is one. Others I think would be nice would be that you can only sign RAs for techs that other empires know so that you can never actually surpass anyone with RAs. Another option is that the RA simply magnifies your own research by a certain percentage. That way you can't replace hard research with them.
 
I must agree that RA in mid-late game is indeed overpowered especially because -

(1) the AIs since the .1.275 patch have been too aggressive to keep their own RAs alive.
(2) The AIs are usually not smart enogh to realize that they need to sink just one policy point into Rationalism for mid-late game RAs.
(3) Furthermore, the player has a couple of sure ways to grab the Procelain Tower, such as from the free Great Engineer from finishing the Liberty Tree.

But I don't think raising the cost of RAs will really solve the problem - the only way of playing to get that rich is through conquest, which does not really need RAs to win. Raising the cost of RAs will make peaceful Science and Culture game even more difficult.
 
Oh and I recommend the Mediterranean map for those who find conquest too easy. :D
 
I must be doing it wrong.

Every RA I sign up for gets canceled, usually just prior to completion, because the AI I signed the RA with wardecs me.
 
@maltz

On the lower difficulties you are correct that one of the easiest ways to make a ton of money is war. However due to the AIs insane money bonuses on the harder difficulties they almost always are rolling in gold. So basically luxury and strategic trading with them is equivalent to getting cash for RAs. RAs last 30 turns... trades last 30 turns. Combine that with the fact that you don't have to build many actual buildings because you are spamming RAs and you will have sufficient gold to finance several waves of RAs.
 
An exploit, okey, but why use it if the game becomes boring.
I remember a little bug in Civ II I think, where you could click on a worker so he would stop doing what he was doing and then give him an order again, stop him, giving hive order. Each time you did this one turn was passed on the improvement the worker was working on, this meant that you could improve your nation in no-time if using this.

Back then they didn't release patches every now and then and this never got fixed (what I know of). Lets hope that they fix all/most bugs in time. But exploits will always be there for the weak to use.
 
Sorry guys, I don't see RAs as being a bug, it enables forum members to play with a small empire if they choose. I don't see why we all have to go conquering half the known World in order to win the game, surely diversity of play styles is one of the keys to the popularity of Civ through the years!
 
Completely disagree there:

1. RA is designed to be a diplomatic mechanism to make real relations with other civ. It decreases chances what you'll be attacked by the Civ you're trading with, especially since last patch decreased backstab bias. So from this point of view, making RA with friends only is a bad idea - the RA will stop working as diplomatic solution.

2. RA cost is not just X money, it's also 30 turns (standard speed) and risk of breaking. It's more or less balanced. On high difficulty levels it's not uncommon to not sign RA due to need of spending money somewhere else. Although, I'm not against the idea of increasing the cost, probably decreasing it back with some Commerce SP.
 
Lol... I just played my first game, going out of my way to make RA's. And im now future teching for the 5th time... While deciding which victory to win... It's kinda a joke...
 
Completely disagree there:

1. RA is designed to be a diplomatic mechanism to make real relations with other civ. It decreases chances what you'll be attacked by the Civ you're trading with, especially since last patch decreased backstab bias. So from this point of view, making RA with friends only is a bad idea - the RA will stop working as diplomatic solution.

2. RA cost is not just X money, it's also 30 turns (standard speed) and risk of breaking. It's more or less balanced. On high difficulty levels it's not uncommon to not sign RA due to need of spending money somewhere else. Although, I'm not against the idea of increasing the cost, probably decreasing it back with some Commerce SP.

1. RA is not a diplomatic solution and can't prevent you from being attacked.

2. RA is too cheap, you don't need to buy buildings or buy city-states. Just invest it in RA and you will be forward in technology. If this is, we should shut down university and labs. Just RA, RA, RA..... and we will be more advanced than Alliens. :lol:
 
If you play with them, you miss all the fun and IMO the spirit of the game. If you play without them, so many other options become more useful and enjoyable. Simple as that.
It's however annoying that AI players still get the advantage of RAs even if you don't use them yourself.

Civ4 had an option to play without tech trading. Why not add the option to play without RAs to Civ5?

Then the bonus of Rationalism opener and Porcelain Tower should change to 5 :c5science: in the capital, for example
 
I believe the opening post has got it mainly right. Some other statements I second:
There is also the gambit problem, AIs can DoW you anytime and break them. This creates an unbalanced environment for competition purposes.
Even in a solo game I find it annoying that these random DoW's - that we have no way of preventing and are completely down to a roll of the dice - have this effect. Off topic; I want at least a free scientist as part of any subsequent peace agreement; you break it, you pay for it!
There are quite a few fixes. A scalable cost increase as you suggested is one. Others I think would be nice would be that you can only sign RAs for techs that other empires know so that you can never actually surpass anyone with RAs. Another option is that the RA simply magnifies your own research by a certain percentage. That way you can't replace hard research with them.
Number 1 and 3 sound good, with number 2 I think you want to go back to tech trading, as signing in for a tech 30 turns in advance I don't see working out, but these are good thoughts. Let's hope Firaxis is also still willing to put their brains into action.
Furthermore, the player has a couple of sure ways to grab the Procelain Tower, such as from the free Great Engineer from finishing the Liberty Tree.
Yes. There are a couple of too easy tricks available with a too strong effect.

I think the research agreement system is basically okay, but some ways need to be found to make the player work harder to get them. That, or/and put a cost balancer in that makes known techs cheaper, but unknown techs dearer when using research agreements - kind of what's already in place for normal research, but much more exaggerated.
 
Guarded AIs shouldn't sign RAs with you. Only neutral and friendly.
That would solve some problems I guess.

I don't have any other idea to really balance them other than decreasing the amount of beakers you get from them. I mean, they are fine in early/mid game.
And great scientists shouldn't grant full techs. Same mechanic, same imbalance.
 
I was brainstorming a bit overnight and came up with what maybe a decent idea to balance RAs. Right now they give:

0.5 * PT Bonus * Rationalism Bonus * your median tech value.

What would happen if it was changed it to:

0.5 * PT Bonus * Rationalism Bonus * min (your median tech value, your partner's median tech value)

That way, if you are trading with someone that is ahead or at your level you would get about the same. If you are ahead, however, you will get at most their median tech value. So if you are trading with some backwater civ that you just kept alive for RA purposes or some other obvious exploit, then you wouldn't get many beakers for your buck.

Under this mechanism, AIs that are behind could catch up (which is largely the intent) but AIs or players that are ahead wouldn't be able to sail foward.

Thoughts?
 
I was brainstorming a bit overnight and came up with what maybe a decent idea to balance RAs. Right now they give:

0.5 * PT Bonus * Rationalism Bonus * your median tech value.

What would happen if it was changed it to:

0.5 * PT Bonus * Rationalism Bonus * min (your median tech value, your partner's median tech value)

That way, if you are trading with someone that is ahead or at your level you would get about the same. If you are ahead, however, you will get at most their median tech value. So if you are trading with some backwater civ that you just kept alive for RA purposes or some other obvious exploit, then you wouldn't get many beakers for your buck.

Under this mechanism, AIs that are behind could catch up (which is largely the intent) but AIs or players that are ahead wouldn't be able to sail foward.

Thoughts?

Good idea! Combine with "you can only sign RA with allies or friendly AI", better!
 
Very nice idea ArcaneSeraph, and concur with idk2011.
 
1. RA is not a diplomatic solution and can't prevent you from being attacked.

No, that's wrong. In Civ 5 diplomacy is based on trade and RA is one of the biggest part here. It helps much more than, dor example, DoF.

2. RA is too cheap, you don't need to buy buildings or buy city-states. Just invest it in RA and you will be forward in technology. If this is, we should shut down university and labs. Just RA, RA, RA..... and we will be more advanced than Alliens. :lol:

If you have Scholasticism, buying city-state will grant you amount of science comparable to RA for the same 30 turns without risk of backstabbing. If you buy a library in a good city, you'll have even more, just for longer period, etc.

And if you were unable to build PT and chose Piety instead of Rationalism, RA is almost useless.
 
No, that's wrong. In Civ 5 diplomacy is based on trade and RA is one of the biggest part here. It helps much more than, dor example, DoF.



If you have Scholasticism, buying city-state will grant you amount of science comparable to RA for the same 30 turns without risk of backstabbing. If you buy a library in a good city, you'll have even more, just for longer period, etc.

And if you were unable to build PT and chose Piety instead of Rationalism, RA is almost useless.

How long have you played CIV5? Have you tried Deity level yet? :sad:
 
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