Team Free Embassy

Language and sound is just as great as the first one :thumbsup:

Looking at the save I just thought we are already ahead of 4-turn-research on the cheap techs. Masonry we would get for 70% in 4 turns. We would more benefit from researching middle to higher cost techs once we got libraries - apart from the better chances to get an SGL...

So I'm not sure if this is a good deal... :dunno:

Researching more techs of course provides also a good chance for SGLs - if we get some not yet known.
Apart from Masonry (which we need) should we leave out the other rivals' starting techs if possible? :hmm:

I'd also like to ask them, if they already know any other rivals and what other techs they already know apart from IW.
 
Let's offer them Philosophy, but at the same time we need to get them to agree to lock out the other teams from ALL tech trading.

Right? Isn't that what we're going for here?

Or should we allow tech trading until Republic is traded? That way, both teams could speed up the collection of all the 'little' techs as the other one beelines for the Big One.

Thoughts?
 
Paul#42 said:
Looking at the save I just thought we are already ahead of 4-turn-research on the cheap techs. Masonry we would get for 70% in 4 turns. We would more benefit from researching middle to higher cost techs once we got libraries - apart from the better chances to get an SGL...

So I'm not sure if this is a good deal... :dunno:
Click to expand...

Wow, they must have just finished researching iron working. We could now research it for as low as 156 beakers so they do have it. We couldn't get it that low last time I checked. Nice timing. (You don't think they popped IW and CB, do you?)

I don't think we should be too picky about ensuring the beaker values add up. At this point good will is more valuable than beakers. The day will come when we want to leave even FREE behind in our research dust but for now do we not want to be equal partners against the other savage teams? Besides, we don't have to research the cheap techs first.
 
General_W - please feel free. I have no time these days to do anything but drop by, so I happily pass things off to you.

We are thinking that free gets CoL and Republic while we research the others? That would be great - do you think they will go for it, though?

Getting IW now is awesome for us. I do not worry about anything for us anymore, unless we don't have iron.
 
Donsig said:
I don't think we should be too picky about ensuring the beaker values add up. At this point good will is more valuable than beakers. The day will come when we want to leave even FREE behind in our research dust but for now do we not want to be equal partners against the other savage teams?
Click to expand...
I couldn't agree more. :agree: - Which is why I didn't mention beaker costs in that letter at all. Main thing is to agree on the idea of working together.

Peter Grimes said:
...but at the same time we need to get them to agree to lock out the other teams from ALL tech trading.

Right? Isn't that what we're going for here?

Or should we allow tech trading until Republic is traded? That way, both teams could speed up the collection of all the 'little' techs as the other one beelines for the Big One.
Click to expand...
My ideal world has us both agreeing to not trade without consulting the other team. The agreement could be in 2 parts... something like: "1) No trading with other teams, unless the other team agrees. and 2) The benefits of any trade will be equally split - if one prospers, both prosper" But that can wait till we get down to writing a formal agreement. No need to get into details now, imo, unless they ask.

As Donsig mentioned - I think we want both of our teams to be very strong for now. I'd say we want them as strong as possible at least through the end of the Middle Ages. There's just bigger and scarier fish to fry in the meantime, and FREE won't be much help if we shut them out (if we even can! There’s a risk WE’D be the ones shut out).

My 2 cents: do everything we can to keep both teams at maximum prosperity until A) We're the last two teams with a realistic shot to win, B) We're doing so well as to be safe from attack and can afford to lose an ally. I don’t see either of these happening till the middle ages draw to a close at the absolute earliest.

Should we send the letter soon?
Any other edits besides the typo correction the Donisg mentioned? (Already fixed)

:salute:
 
Great news again!

One thought, what made them research IW (assuming they didn't pop it)?
enemies nearby...? We should ask them about this.
 
You know, it occurs to me they may not have popped it or researched it but traded for it. :hmm:
 
That's defintely something we should asked them.

This is surprising enough to allow a question.
 
I would say they researched IW, apart from alpha, writing and CB we don't think they have any other techs apart from their start techs of bronze and potts, that would mean they have produced a total of 630 beakers as apposed to our 780, I don't know where else their beakers could have gone.
 
I think Aigburth has the right of it. Most likely scenario is just the Team FREE was a bit paranoid about getting wiped out (as we were) decided they couldn't win the Philo race (and they would have been correct) and decided to buy some safety by getting IW. They no doubt made that choice before they realized they were on an island.
It is, of course, possible they're trading with someone else… but I think it's highly unlikely. I think we may have a major asset in our favor with The Unsinkable Chamsuri! He's going to deserve his own song in the annals of Council History!

Turn 60 is now upon us.
Any objection to my sending this (slightly modified to include a question about the Savages) letter in the next 3-4 hours?

Version 2 said:
Dear Kuningas and all FREE people,

Your words were received with great gladness in the halls of The Council.
We most heartily agree to your trade of Iron Working for Philosophy… as you know, we sent Philosophy to you last turn, and we look forward to accepting the deal this turn.

Perhaps now we can begin coordinating our research to advance both our peoples more rapidly?
We’ll start by informing you that we just learned the secrets of Literature, and have our wisepeople peering into the secrets of something called Masonry. Where are your current research plans taking you? We’re happy to adjust our plans to mutual benefit.

Perhaps your people could strive for knowledge of Code of Laws and then Republic (a government with more freedom as befits your name) while we gather and provide knowledge of a baser sort (like Literature, Masonry, Math, Map Making, The Wheel, and Warrior Code). We believe we can trust you, and so we would be happy to provide you these technologies for free as we discover them, so you don’t fall behind – and then you can repay us with Code of Laws and Republic when you learn them.
If you agree to this in principle, we can write up a more formal treaty, carrying both our peoples all the way through the ancient age, into sharing our free techs, and beyond!

As we get agreement on how/what our cooperation is going to look like, we'll both want to address how to handle the savage foreigners. Have you met anyone else yet? You're our first contact. I'm sure we can work out a deal where if one of us prospers, both prosper.

In the meantime, please respond with your research plans so we can make sure we’re not duplicating our efforts as we hammer out the details.

Speaking with the voice of the Council, General_W
Click to expand...
 
Looks good (though fist => first ;))
 
Trying to catch up...

Philo for IW is an even deal as Kuningas says (both have base cost 6 in the editor). I would make the deal without further ado, if only to strengthen ties.

The other deal doesn't look quite right to me, because Republic can be researched at min science for an enormous gain in gold. So at least it needs to be spelt out how Republic will be researched - either a min run with gains equally split, or a max run. Also because it leaves out the important tech of Currency. And because it completely ties our hands concerning who does what (what if we run into someone who will trade us CoL? What if FREE runs into a civ that will trade them one of the many techs we will provide?). And finally, because we would have to trust them to give us the Republic, some time after we have given them a load of smaller techs. Not that I mistrust them, I just think this is going a bit fast - well perhaps I am paranoid :).

I am not overly concerned about exact beaker values either. Although to make it even you could simply drop WC from that list, and I don't see why not.

A somewhat simpler deal would be: currency + maps for republic, and then some split of the cheaper stuff.

I agree we would need to know a bit more about who they know, where they get their techs, and what their plans are.
 
Hmmm… some good comments there zyxy…

I still think we need to send something before/along with the next save.

Which version do people like better?

zyxy version with reduced/modified language on the Republic deal:
Version 1.2:
Spoiler :

Dear Kuningas and all FREE people,

Your words were received with great gladness in the halls of The Council.
We most heartily agree to your trade of Iron Working for Philosophy… as you know, we sent Philosophy to you last turn, and we look forward to accepting the deal this turn.

Perhaps now we can begin coordinating our research to advance both our peoples more rapidly?
We’ll start by informing you that we just learned the secrets of Literature, and have our wisepeople peering into the secrets of something called Masonry. Where are your current research plans taking you? We’re happy to adjust our plans to mutual benefit.

Perhaps your people could strive for knowledge of Republic (a government with more freedom as befits your name) in exchange for Map Making and Currency from us? In association with this, we would obviously want to craft a deal to get us both the the perquisites for Currency (and all the other techs as well!).
If you agree to this in principle, we can write up a more formal treaty, dealing with all the particulars and carrying both our peoples all the way through the ancient age, into sharing our free techs, and beyond!

As we get agreement on how/what our cooperation is going to look like, we'll both want to address how to handle the savage foreigners. Have you met anyone else yet? You're our first contact. I'm sure we can work out a deal where if one of us prospers, both prosper.

In the meantime, please respond with your research plans so we can make sure we’re not duplicating our efforts as we hammer out the details.

Speaking with the voice of the Council, General_W


or the original version:
Spoiler :

Dear Kuningas and all FREE people,

Your words were received with great gladness in the halls of The Council.
We most heartily agree to your trade of Iron Working for Philosophy… as you know, we sent Philosophy to you last turn, and we look forward to accepting the deal this turn.

Perhaps now we can begin coordinating our research to advance both our peoples more rapidly?
We’ll start by informing you that we just learned the secrets of Literature, and have our wisepeople peering into the secrets of something called Masonry. Where are your current research plans taking you? We’re happy to adjust our plans to mutual benefit.

Perhaps your people could strive for knowledge of Code of Laws and then Republic (a government with more freedom as befits your name) while we gather and provide knowledge of a baser sort (like Literature, Masonry, Math, Map Making, The Wheel, and Warrior Code). We believe we can trust you, and so we would be happy to provide you these technologies for free as we discover them, so you don’t fall behind – and then you can repay us with Code of Laws and Republic when you learn them.
If you agree to this in principle, we can write up a more formal treaty, carrying both our peoples all the way through the ancient age, into sharing our free techs, and beyond!

As we get agreement on how/what our cooperation is going to look like, we'll both want to address how to handle the savage foreigners. Have you met anyone else yet? You're our first contact. I'm sure we can work out a deal where if one of us prospers, both prosper.

In the meantime, please respond with your research plans so we can make sure we’re not duplicating our efforts as we hammer out the details.

Speaking with the voice of the Council, General_W




What says the Council?
 
Hmm, I don't see why we don't go for Republic ourselves. It seems clear that we research faster than they do, judging by beaker counts thus far, and we want to get to Republic as fast as possible, for even faster research. Why not decide on a deal that makes us research that, and they research the low-level stuff?
 
General_W, thanks for writing that up!

The first version may cause some confusion because Maths and Masonry are prereqs for Currency. So we could add something more specific like "this will/could involve a tech deal for the prereqs". But then in better language...

I like the lines about "foreigners". I'm very interested in their response...

EDIT: btw, I agree we need to keep the communication going. But we don't have to send messages with a lot of content, and the one we are proposing now has a lot of content - the idea of a tech sharing treaty, a division of techs, research plans, and foreigners. We could chop this up and for example first sound them out about the idea of tech sharing. (And the foreigners, and for practical purposes the short term research plans. That's a lot already.)
 
Well, the problem with us going for Republic is that we'd need to ask FREE to trust us and give us Map Making and Mathematics in advance of getting Republic from us. (As we want to get the Great Lighthouse and have the SoZ as a fallback plan)

It just rubs me wrong to start negotiations by asking for FREE to give us technology on trust this early on. Unless we think we can get Republic before we get to 300 shields in The Admiralty?

Anyway – that's why I wrote the deal this way, but of course it can be changed, or made even more vague… "one team gets Republic while the other … "

Personally, I'd stick with it the way it's written. After all, it's just a starting point that can always be changed.

EDIT: x-post with zyxy... glad you like it! I'll clean up that language per your suggestion. Will edit here asap. EDIT2: Updated above.
 
General_W said:
Perhaps your people could strive for knowledge of Republic (a government with more freedom as befits your name) in exchange for Map Making and Currency from us? In association with this, we would obviously want to craft a deal to get us both the the perquisites for Currency (and all the other techs as well!).
If you agree to this in principle, we can write up a more formal treaty, dealing with all the particulars and carrying both our peoples all the way through the ancient age, into sharing our free techs, and beyond!
Click to expand...
This might take some longer than this direct approach but I would also like to offer a coordination of research but let them also make a suggestion before going into details.
General_W said:
You're our first contact.
Click to expand...
Now this is a little too informal in my ears... How about something like: Thou art the first human beings we met capable to both explore and note novel knowledge - I'd love a little bit more Shakespeare here :mischief: :p
General_W said:
What says the Council?
Click to expand...
I also agree to put our suggestions in smaller portions to make them both easier to phrase for us and to reply for them.
 
Democracy at work here… makes me wonder if we'll ever get this done! :lol:

Couple comments from me:
1) I don't see any compelling reason to chop this up into smaller pieces. Sure it's a lot all at once, but the turns are flying by, and the longer we delay on getting mutual understanding on any of these points the more potential harm we do to our "alliance." Since it's all written, why delay in sending it?
The MOST time sensitive item is clearly reiterated at the end of the letter, to impress the need for speed upon FREE.
Also, if we only send part of the puzzle, our proposals may seem lacking, cagey, or insufficient. Maybe FREE won't want to agree to one part without the others? However, if we send them the whole big picture, it makes it much easier for them to respond with knowledge about what we're really looking to do with them.

2) Of course we can just strip back the Republic proposal even further to just "coordination of research" but my concern would be that it's hard to get too excited about "coordination" vs being very easy to be excited about "We're getting Republic and Math, and Currency, and bunch of other great techs!"
I agree it's way to early to propose details – but I think it's best to at least offer an example of what we're thinking.

3) I'm finally going to bow to what appears to be the will of the council on not being as specific on who does what in the Republic deal – though I'd still like it to be known that I think this is a mistake.

Based on these comments, I'm proud to present Version 3 of this proposed response.
I've made some allowance for the "chop it into pieces" crowd, as well as made it more clear that the Republic proposal is just an example, and made it vague on who does what.

Version 3:
Dear Kuningas and all FREE people,

Your words were received with great gladness in the halls of The Council.
We most heartily agree to your trade of Iron Working for Philosophy… as you know, we sent Philosophy to you last turn, and we look forward to accepting the deal this turn.

We have 2 Matters we wish to discuss with you.

#1 – Mutually Assured Advancement
Perhaps now we can begin coordinating our research to advance both our peoples more rapidly?
We’ll start by informing you that we just learned the secrets of Literature, and have our wisepeople peering into the secrets of something called Masonry. Where are your current research plans taking you? We’re happy to adjust our plans to mutual benefit.

For example, we could strike a deal to rapidly get us both Republic (a government with more freedom as befits your name) and all the other Ancient Age techs. One team could race to Republic while the other gives Map Making and Currency in exchange. In association with this, we'd both obviously want the deal to include the perquisites for Republic and Currency as well as all the other techs!

If you agree to this in principle, we can write up a more formal treaty, dealing with all the particulars and carrying both our peoples all the way through the ancient age, into sharing our free techs, and beyond!
​

#2 – Playing Well with Others
As we get agreement on how/what our cooperation is going to look like, we'll both want to address how to handle the savage foreigners.

Have you met anyone else yet? We're pleased to say that you are the first humans we've met who have risen above mindless attempts to raid our cities and that are capable of exploring, learning and communicating.

I'm sure we can work out a coordinated strategy in dealing with the Foreign Fearsome Hordes… where if one of us prospers, both prosper. We'd like to see this as a part of any grand alliance/technology deal. What do you think?
​

Obviously, the first priority is to nail down what techs we're researching, so please respond as soon as possible with your research plans so we can make sure we’re not duplicating our efforts as we hammer out the rest of these details.

Speaking with the voice of the Council, General_W
Click to expand...

What do people think of this?
:salute:
 
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