East Asia mod?

Good suggestions for a UU again. What should the name be? Balinese Warrior/Pirate/Officer, something like that?
Bugis Warrior, as we discussed here.
Yes obviously they were never muslim, but by the time Buddhism arrived they had disappeared too. So none of them really fits as far as I can see. However it is a "Pakistani" civ in geography terms, so why not make it muslim? I agree though that Buddhism could fit just as well, but it's also good for gameplay, since there's already tons of Buddhist civs. ;)
Got to be careful of that kind of justification. It would be equally valid to say that it is a "Bactrian" civ in geography so it ought to have a syncretic Hellenistic Gnostic religion.:p
Yes I knew the better worker would come up, maybe I should chance Burmas UU then, the Kywan Worker, since it's kind of hard to have two worker UU's, that aren't alike.
Just trying to keep in the spirit of a civ noted for mercantile cities with no evidence of standing armies or large scale warfare.
An elephant, really? I thought it was going to be some Turk Horse Archer that the Mughals invaded India with from Afghanistan, but you're the expert.
A cavalry unit would also make sense. At least one of the Indian civs needs a special elephant unit though, & it could be any of them. Even the Harappans had images of tamed elephants on their seals.
I was just about to make the Mil and Ind too, but then I realized that another civ had the same trait, so I went for Ind and Com, do you think that's completly wrong?
As a second choice I'd combine one of those two with Expansionist; they were really aggressive. But whatever is needed for game balance out of those for traits would be appropriate.

Forgot to show you this cool cannon as a possible artillery piece for Vijayanagara ( the other images were part of a discussion on Napoleonic Era Indian units in another thread).


The other names I'll have to do a little research on.
 
Bugis Warrior it is.

How about a fast settler then for Indus?

V will be Ind and Exp then.
 
Yoda Power said:
Ok thanks. :goodjob:

What should Nurhacis title be?

Nurhaci's title would simply be emperor. He was an emperor of a dynasty after all. :)

For Japan's civ traits, Japan was both religious and militaristic. But since you already have Tibet as militaristic and religious, Japan could be militaristic and agricultural. Agriculture and control over rice harvest revenues were highly important to feudal lords.
 
Weren't they more west in todsyd Kazakhstan? Thanks for liking the map, it took me three days to make.
:eek: Three days? That's incredible. I have a few maps I would complete if they didn't take so long. You're good. :)
About the Yuezhi, TLC's got it.

I think I might chance Uighurs to the Yuezhi of Khotan, since that empire fits much better into the geography.
I (for one) wouldn't mind that. :)
Not that the Uighurs aren't a good choice, though.
 
Just a couple of thoughts on traits, with an eye toward making:

Japan - Militaristic, Religious

Nam Viet - Militaristic, Agricultural
c 1600 'The Vietnamese still did not have fully developed domestic or international commerce* having been too preocupied with agriculture. Its growing population also consumed most of the rice, etc. itself leaving little surplus for export. The prevailing Confucianist ideology furthermore held merchant activities in contempt. Most of the existing demand for foreign goods was for luxury items for the small wealthy class.'

*relative to contemporary China, Champa, etc

Tibet - Religious, Scientific
c 800 'The Tibetans enjoyed a high reputation for their technology both in Arabic and Chinese sources, excelling especially in metalwork (armor, goldwork) and in particular in the wondrous automata they sent the Chinese emperor as gifts.'

Throw in the fact that 'spiritual enlightenment' is a technological advance in Civ3 and I think the description fits the Tibetan Empire period pretty well.

P.S. I'm not sure which period you had Khampa horseman pegged for, but at its peak the Tibetan army relied on heavy cavalry of this nature (see pic :)). Their armor was considered exceptional at the time and Chinese use of the crossbow was probably encouraged by having to deal with them (certainly the Chinese embassies to Nanzhao stressed its use against the Tibetans). A further note: in rereading the histories of the Tibetan campaigns I don't get the feeling Militaristic would be appropriate, they don't strike me the same way as say the Mongols, Japanese, or Vietnamese. Hard to put an exact finger on though.
 

Attachments

  • TibetanCav.jpg
    TibetanCav.jpg
    10.5 KB · Views: 82
Just a couple of thoughts on traits, with an eye toward making:

Japan - Militaristic, Religious

Nam Viet - Militaristic, Agricultural
c 1600 'The Vietnamese still did not have fully developed domestic or international commerce* having been too preocupied with agriculture. Its growing population also consumed most of the rice, etc. itself leaving little surplus for export. The prevailing Confucianist ideology furthermore held merchant activities in contempt. Most of the existing demand for foreign goods was for luxury items for the small wealthy class.'

*relative to contemporary China, Champa, etc

Tibet - Religious, Scientific
c 800 'The Tibetans enjoyed a high reputation for their technology both in Arabic and Chinese sources, excelling especially in metalwork (armor, goldwork) and in particular in the wondrous automata they sent the Chinese emperor as gifts.'

Throw in the fact that 'spiritual enlightenment' is a technological advance in Civ3 and I think the description fits the Tibetan Empire period pretty well.

P.S. I'm not sure which period you had Khampa horseman pegged for, but at its peak the Tibetan army relied on heavy cavalry of this nature (see pic :)). Their armor was considered exceptional at the time and Chinese use of the crossbow was probably encouraged by having to deal with them (certainly the Chinese embassies to Nanzhao stressed its use against the Tibetans). A further note: in rereading the histories of the Tibetan campaigns I don't get the feeling Militaristic would be appropriate, they don't strike me the same way as say the Mongols, Japanese, or Vietnamese. Hard to put an exact finger on though.

By reading that, it seems Nam Viet should not be agri, since they couldn't even export any food. It doesn't seem they should be com either though. :confused:

Maybe Tibet should be exp instead of mil then? They did cover a pretty big empire afterall. But I don't really think they should be scientific, since they really couldn't compete with India and China in these fields.

That horseman would be awesome as a Khampa Horseman, if only someone would make it... ;)
 
By reading that, it seems Nam Viet should not be agri, since they couldn't even export any food. It doesn't seem they should be com either though. :confused:

:hmm: Didn't think of it that way initially - Vietnam is currently the worlds second largest exporter of rice. And it did grow greatly in population and area during the period in question so I just looked at it as being densely populated but productive. I think overall I'd stay with agri BUT...

If you wanted to avoid agr though I think commercial, seafaring, and scientific are right out, with perhaps expansionist (colonizing the south in addition to conquering Champa) or industrious the best alternatives.

Maybe Tibet should be exp instead of mil then? They did cover a pretty big empire afterall. But I don't really think they should be scientific, since they really couldn't compete with India and China in these fields.

I think exp and rel is fine. I think I tried to avoid it because it was the same as the Timurids on your list.
 
:hmm: Didn't think of it that way initially - Vietnam is currently the worlds second largest exporter of rice. And it did grow greatly in population and area during the period in question so I just looked at it as being densely populated but productive. I think overall I'd stay with agri BUT...

If you wanted to avoid agr though I think commercial, seafaring, and scientific are right out, with perhaps expansionist (colonizing the south in addition to conquering Champa) or industrious the best alternatives.
Hmm, I'll think about it.
I think exp and rel is fine. I think I tried to avoid it because it was the same as the Timurids on your list.
I can always change the Timurids. ;)

BTW here is an updated building list. Not much is missing, but I'd really appeciate help with the few things that are.

I've grown a bit insecure on the Batik Maker, since I realized I'd rather want a more north Indian oriented building. Any thought's on this?
 

Attachments

  • asiabuildings.doc
    48 KB · Views: 88
No updates for a few days. I was hit by work and sickness, but that should clear up now, so I started to sort out some stuff, resources, buildings, city lists.

I also added some graphics, and I'll continue with that today. :)


Any ideas for the buildings? I could really need some help.
 
I know three posts in a row is not nice, but this is just how it is.

Nomads

I am thinking about two ways to represent nomads in the mod (Yuezhi, Mongols, Kara-Khitai and Timurids).

Basics
First off all I want to make sur ethey don't grow large modern cities, so I want to limit their worker capabilities. I also want to give them some cheap units, that cost one pop however to give the feeling of immigration. However I have to ideas as to how I should limit their worker capabilities. Hopefully I'll get some input on this too. ;)

1: No buildable workers
This way the nomads can only get workers by capturing them or maybe enslaving. The problem is that they wouldn't be able to build any trade network before they have went to war, and that really sucks, since they are the main source for horse resources on the map, and since they historically traded quite a lot.

2: Limited actions
This way the nomads can build workers but they would only be able to make roads and a few other things, but not mines and farms. This way the trade problem is solved, but if they conquer more civilzed nations, then it will be weird not to be able to build irrigation and mines in these lands. (Think about the Mongols conquer China).
 
Not a bad idea. Of those two, I like Merchant Quarter best, since it seems a bit more specific than the former.
 
I'm having some trouble with the Nanyue/Nam Viet city list. The only cities that I can find are Panyu, Julu, Zhengding and Hanoi.

I also found this map, but my Chinese is a not that great. ;)
 
Update

While the thread have been quiet for a few days, I've still managed to do some work on the mod. I managed to update a few city lists, with the help of some maps, provided by BlueMonkey. Thanks! :goodjob:

I've also figured out a plan of how the work process will be. First I will add all the basic stuff to get a playable beta-version, then all the flavour stuff can be added. This means that I added the basic unit line. I choose to use the Japanese units, since there's so many of them. So this picture is 1) a view of the units in the test version, and 2) an early look on the final Japanese unit line.
Spoiler picture :


The next big task will be to figure out the tech tree and how the nomads should work.
 
Appetizer -
Some belated comments on previous posts:
I'm inclined to agree, but I'm not dure I understand what Sandalwood exactly is. Is it a special type of wood used for sandals?
Actually it was occasionally used for sandals worn during exceptionally hallowed ceremonies.
I've grown a bit insecure on the Batik Maker, since I realized I'd rather want a more north Indian oriented building. Any thought's on this?
Only the name is not Indian. The technique was used throught Indian and at least the Southern parts of China. In fact the wood blocks used are thought by many to be a precursor to the printing techniques which were developed in China.
 
Main Course -
Even though this conversation took place in Ogedei’s thread -
Ogedei I have a request, if you're up for it.

Early wonders! (pre 0 BCE). I start adding wonders to my mod, and realised how few Asian wonders there really is. I think I've added all the wonders that I could find on these forums, but it just isn't enough. Pretty much any wonder is appreciated.
Pre 0 BCE wonders?
...

Blue Monkey can suggest a few South Asian ones.
[threadjack]In my mod the wonders I lack most are from the Bronze age, so any new Indus or ancient SEAsian ideas are appreciated.[/threadjack]
I’m not familiar with SE Asia prior to the Indianization era which is definitely CE. Even then, two of the three I’m familiar with are already made: Prambanam by Ogedei & Angkor Wat by Ukas with alternative splash by Rufas T Firefly. Borobudur has yet to be tackled as far as I know.

As you requested then, here are some ideas for


Ancient Indian Wonders

Stone Age

The Kupgal Singing Rocks are a location where natural resonance in the huge stones brings forth ringing tones when struck with rocks. There is also one spot that forms a sort of natural amplifier for the human voice. There is some evidence that the site has been “worked” to emphasize and tune these effects. It’s also notable that the tones evoked may have influenced the development of the mantras used in meditation.


Mythic or Vedic Era
These wonders are associated with “legends from the mists of time”.

Dvaraka is the location of Krishna’s capital in the Mahabharata. It was supposed to be one of the most beautiful cities in the world. The whole city was deluged by the ocean after his death and lost forever.

The 7 Drowned Temples of Mahabalipuram are both legendary and historic (kind of like Camelot). The Indian Ocean Tsunami revealed buildings as it drew back prior to crashing into the shore. Several artifacts were washed ashore which date to the 7th century CE. There are stories of a much earlier (BCE) site, and some tentative underwater exploration, slightly to the north of the revealed buildings.

Juggernauts are not a building. They are giant chariots (45 ft. high) which are paraded on holy days in commemoration of Krishna and other heroes of the epics. They are still in use at present, however their use extends back to antiquity. There are even representations of them in stone, with rotatable wheels, at a few temples.


Indus-Saraswati (Harappan) Civilization

The remains at Lothal of a Great Harbor are now often interpreted to be some other kind of structure. As a harbor it would include the earliest example of a tidal lock. This wonder would reinforce the reality that the Indus-Saraswati civilization was involved in extensive trade with other contemporary societies.

The Great Granary at Mohenjo-Daro is important because this and other cultures in India are centers of some of the earliest cultivation of barley, wheat, and cotton. I posted some reconstructions of the granary which Ogedei turned into a wonder.

The Harappans were noted for their systems of conduits and sewers, the earliest extant examples of such a civic project. The Great Bath at Mohenjo-Daro and the reservoirs at Dholavira are two wonder-worthy examples.


Life of Buddha

Although the current structures are later-era elaborations all these sites are associated with major events in the life of Buddha and have been venerated since shortly after his parinirvana.

The Mahabodhi Temple encloses and protects the bodhi tree where he meditated and achieved enlightenment. The tree growing today, although ancient, is a replanting from a shoot of the original tree (which was taken to Sri Lanka by the children of Asoka, who had become Buddhist mendicants).

Sarnath is a venerable deer park where Buddha preached his first sermon.

The Great Stupa at Sanchi holds some important relics of the Buddha. Because of the sacredness of the relics pilgrims frequently took pieces of the stupa as souvenirs. They believed that since the stupa was in touch with the relics some of their spiritual power was transferred to the stones. So successive kings enclosed the structure with larger, more embellished stupas in order to further protect the actual relics.
Ogedei made us a wonder of the current structure which is the elaboration sponsored by Ashoka.

Sri Dalada Maligawa temple is the current location of the Relic of Buddha’s Tooth. Wars have been fought over this wonder. In fact, a wuxia film funded by the Chinese government features the tooth as its macguffin.


Life of Mahavira (Jain Religion)

Mahavira, a contemporary of Gautama Buddha, was the last and best known of the Jain Tirthankaras. As with many other of these potential wonders, the extant structures are from later eras. It’s the practice in India to continually rebuild and extend sacred complexes. We do the same thing; the Vatican is a perfect example.

Rajgriha Temple was the site of one of the earliest Jain temples.

The Chandragiri temple complex is also important.

My choice for a Jain wonder would be Shri Sammet Shikharji. It's the Jain practice for their spiritually advanced members to become increasingly reclusive. Entire communities grow around these locations, which become much more than just temple complexes. This is the site where 20 of the 24 Tirthankaras achieved moksha.

Here is a gallery I put together of many of the Jain sacred sites.


Later BCE

Ashoka’s Pillars or Rock Edicts proclaimed his laws, and more importantly the social contract in which he expected all of his subjects to participate. It has the same importance in Indian history as the Hammurabi stele did for the Babylonians. further more, since he used multiple languages to serve the various ethnic groups under his rule, they have become a kind of Indian Rosetta Stone.

There are many monasteries and temple complexes throughout India made by enlarging caves or hewn from solid rock. The Ajanta Cave Temples is one of the best known sites. The earliest use dates back to BCE, although the more elaborate caves are from CE. It is famous for its many murals, which depict both Hindu & Buddhist subjects.


Early CE

Wootz is a superior type of steel produced in classical India. It became known in the West as Damascus steel because of intermediary traders & its use in Middle Eastern swords. The Iron Pillar of Delhi is a wonder that demonstrates the advanced metallurgical skills of Indian craftsmen.

The Giant Buddhas of Bamiyan were one of the major pilgrimage & secular tourism sites along the Kushan Empire section of the Silk Road. This post describes how they looked in their heyday.
 
Dessert -
The next big task will be to figure out the tech tree
Whichever of these wonders you decide to include I’d be happy to help with concept art, pedia descriptions, & related tech icons.

:coffee:


EDIT: Walking around in the rain on my never ending quest for beef jerky & gummi bears I suddenly remembered the Plain of Jars. Laotian wonder anyone?
 
@Yoda Power: Sandalwood is a type of fragrant wood used for all sorts of things ranging from furniture to incense to medicine. It was so valued a luxury in East Asia that Hawaiians practically deforested their islands of sandalwood trees to take part in the sandalwood trade.

@Blue Monkey: My to-do list just keeps getting longer. :crazyeye: :D
 
Top Bottom