Have to be careful how this interacted with the tag that prevents invasion until defense drops below some amount, or you would wind up with uninvadable cities.
[Idea] Realistic City Siege
- Thread starter Nimek
- Start date
Have to be careful how this interacted with the tag that prevents invasion until defense drops below some amount, or you would wind up with uninvadable cities.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Indeed. Plus once you get to energy shielding there would not really be that much "rubble".
Dissonance
Warlord
I'm thinking of games like Planetside. A downed shield can still be partially active, or the technology could be used to field emergency shields on a much smaller scale.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
But the Advanced Shields have it where you cannot entire the City if its 1% or more. it would be impossible to get in the city if it had any defenses left.
The meaning of that tag wold have to be changed slightly to be a maximum amount of 'active' defense that can allow entry.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Right... so if you have a city that can't be attacked until the defense is lowered to 5% or less, but bombardment has taken you down to a minimum of 50%, the 5% is somewhat irrelevant in this case as since the % or less to attack value is less than the overall minimum defense value, you are simply attackable at minimum defense.
Thus the ACTUAL '% or less to attack' is either what your buildings would enforce by direct use of that tag, OR the minimum defense total from all building minimum defense values totaled, whichever is greater.
Note, this does still have some meaning. If I use spies (or an eventual bombard method where we're attacking the building(s) themselves to destroy them outright) to remove a building with a minimum defense value, sending the total min def to below what the '% or less to attack' value is in the city, then I've only had so much real effect on the Actual '% or less to attack' because I've now put the city into considering that value rather than the overall minimum defense. Make sense?
Taxman66
King
Why not change the way the '% or less to attack' works? You could have it be 'reduced to x% of maximum defensive value' I know the maximum defensive value must be retained number because a city that has been bombarded but not conquered will recover its defensive value over time until it returns to its max defensive value.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Not a bad idea but we'd still have to create an adjustment similar to my last post because the problem could still be present.
However, another approach would be if it was a % of the amount that lies between max and min defense. This would probably be the most rational and least baited for modders but trying to explain it in simple enough terms to players? Not sure if it'd be optimal from that angle.
However, another approach would be if it was a % of the amount that lies between max and min defense. This would probably be the most rational and least baited for modders but trying to explain it in simple enough terms to players? Not sure if it'd be optimal from that angle.
Dissonance
Warlord
In terms of siege weapons vs cities, here is a suggestion (may require special coding)
Siege Weapons could, on a successful attack, have a % change of producing a temporary effect on the terrain/city that gives negative defenses. So for example:
Siege tower (50% success) -> Deployed Siege Tower on the city (requires walls), -30% and gets removed the following turn.
Catapult (10% success) -> Breach (requires walls), -15% and gets removed the following turn.
To add ANOTHER layer of complexity, the removal of the Siege Buildings could instead require a worker/siege engineer to be alive on the city, similar to how Inquisition works.
Siege Weapons could, on a successful attack, have a % change of producing a temporary effect on the terrain/city that gives negative defenses. So for example:
Siege tower (50% success) -> Deployed Siege Tower on the city (requires walls), -30% and gets removed the following turn.
Catapult (10% success) -> Breach (requires walls), -15% and gets removed the following turn.
To add ANOTHER layer of complexity, the removal of the Siege Buildings could instead require a worker/siege engineer to be alive on the city, similar to how Inquisition works.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
And I still think incraseing the defence value 5 to 10 times isn't wrong. Is it really only 50% harder to invade a city with high wall than a unfortified city without siege? I don't think so.
And you are able to lower defence and health of defenders A LOT with siege weapons, so they would be still invadeable.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
See this post.
I don't think simple doubling will work. Especially since some things have the same defense. Over all I think some early one should stay the same while middle eras should be increased. For example
Towers (Old)
Frontier Outpost = 5%
Fortified Outpost = 10%
Watch Tower = 10%
Guard Tower = 10%
Tower Keep = 15%
Bombard Tower = 30%
Towers (New)
Frontier Outpost = 5%
Fortified Outpost = 10%
Watch Tower = 15%
Guard Tower = 20%
Tower Keep = 25%
Bombard Tower = 30%
As you can see the "new" outline has a more gradual progression. However we should also consider what other defense structures are in the same era as each other. Such as ...
Walls = 30%
City Gatehouse = 15%
High Walls = 50%
Castle = 50%
Tower Keep = 15%
Mechanical Traps = 10%
Should they be in the same range? or should they be independent of each other? Such as traps not being as effective a a Castle.
Alo should they be adjusted and THEN doubled? Such as ...
Towers (New + Doubled)
Frontier Outpost = 10%
Fortified Outpost = 20%
Watch Tower = 30%
Guard Tower = 40%
Tower Keep = 50%
Bombard Tower = 60%
Thus both doubled and gradual increase.
EDIT: A Proposed Gradual + Doubled values ...
Walls
Palisades = 20%
Earth Walls = 40%
Walls = 60%
High Walls = 80%
Barricades = 100%
Barbed Wire Fence = 120%
Cement Barrier = 140%
Arcology Shielding = 160%
Advanced Shielding = 180%
What do you think? Too much? Not enough?
EDIT2: Proposed Towers ...
Towers
Frontier Outpost = 10%
Fortified Outpost = 20%
Watch Tower = 30%
Guard Tower = 40%
Tower Keep = 50%
Bombard Tower = 60%
Artillery Battery = 80%
Auto-Cannon Battery = 100%
Missile Battery = 120%
Railgun Battery = 140%
Laser Battery = 160%
Anti-Matter Battery = 180%
This one I had to weak a little more. Tried to keep it around the same as the walls. Or have the walls be worth a bit more.
EDIT3: Here is a better timeline ...
----Prehistoric----
Frontier Outpost (Carpentry) = 10%
Palisades (Carpentry) = 20%
Earth Walls (Megalith Construction) = 40%
----Ancient Era----
Fortified Outpost (Masonry) = 20%
Walls (Masonry) = 60%
----Classical Era----
Watch Tower (Mathematics) = 30%
Guard Tower (Siege Warfare) = 40%
High Walls (Siege Warfare) = 80%
----Medieval Era----
Tower Keep (Engineering) = 50%
----Renaissance Era----
Bombard Tower (Gunpowder) = 60%
Barricades (Rifling) = 100%
----Industrial Era----
Barbed Wire Fence (Barbed Wire) = 120%
Artillery Battery (Artillery) = 80%
----Modern Era----
Auto-Cannon Battery (Manufacturing) = 100%
Cement Barrier (Manufacturing) = 140%
Missile Battery (Advanced Rocketry) = 120%
----Trans-Human Era---
Railgun Battery (Railgun) = 140%
Laser Battery (Fusion) = 160%
----Galactic Era---
Arcology Shielding (Shielding) = 160%
Advanced Shielding (Advanced Shielding) = 180%
Anti-Matter Battery (Weaponized Antimatter) = 180%
From what I can see looks like we should have some sort of new walls between Cement Barrier and Arcology Shielding. Mainly in the Trans-Human Era.
Walls: -20% damage to defense from bombardment.
High Walls: -40% damage to defense from bombardment
Can we increase Walls to -30% damage to defense from bombardment.
How about this also:
Fortified Outpost: -0% damage to defense from bombardment. Change to -5%
Watch Tower: -5% damage to defense from bombardment. Change to -10%
Guard Tower: -10% damage to defense from bombardment. Change to -15%
Keep Tower: -10% damage to defense from bombardment. Change to -20%
Bombard Tower: -15% damage to defense from bombardment. Change to -25%
High Walls: -40% damage to defense from bombardment
Can we increase Walls to -30% damage to defense from bombardment.
How about this also:
Fortified Outpost: -0% damage to defense from bombardment. Change to -5%
Watch Tower: -5% damage to defense from bombardment. Change to -10%
Guard Tower: -10% damage to defense from bombardment. Change to -15%
Keep Tower: -10% damage to defense from bombardment. Change to -20%
Bombard Tower: -15% damage to defense from bombardment. Change to -25%
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
With towers having the Dynamic Defense angle, (and I still strongly feel at the point they start being able to do damage to adjacent enemies that's when they should become the source for ZoC) I don't think they should be doubled (but the adjustments are good!)
The walls, however, are great, and I could even see a bit more, something from a 25 - 200 range. Certainly, these should be your primary source of raw defense.
I'd be cool with this. It's not too severe and I think would be quite appropriate.
I'll be attempting to get iLocalRepel and iMinDefense tags developed over the weekend so those can be installed on our defensive buildings too.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
What about an wireless electic fence at Wireless Electricity or at Metamaterials or Superstrong Alloys a super solid barrier? I could also think about a self-repairing nanobot wall.
Also you might rethink the simple "except vs gunpowder units" thing. If possible, different walls should have different boni against different types of units. Palisades, while effective vs Melee and Mounted Units are weak to fire. Walls aren't completely useless vs gunpowder, but a bit weaker. Helicopters can almost ignore cemet barrieres, but are more vulunerable to turrets. And Shilds would have full defense against them. And so on...
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Thunderbrd
Ok so the plan is ...
Walls = Gradual Defense Increase + Doubled
Towers = Gradual Defense Increase + Larger Damage
What about the other stuff like traps, watch posts, castles, etc? Note I will do the Walls and Towers in the meantime.
EDIT: Here are the Stats ...
Walls (Defense)
Palisades = 20%
Earth Walls = 40%
Walls = 60%
High Walls = 80%
Barricades = 100%
Barbed Wire Fence = 120%
Cement Barrier = 140%
Arcology Shielding = 160%
Advanced Shielding = 180%
Towers (Defense)
Frontier Outpost = 5%
Fortified Outpost = 10%
Watch Tower = 15%
Guard Tower = 20%
Tower Keep = 25%
Bombard Tower = 30%
Artillery Battery = 40%
Auto-Cannon Batter = 60%
Missile Battery = 60%
Railgun Battery = 70%
Laser Battery = 80%
Anti-Matter Battery = 90%
Thus towers are roughly half as defensive as walls during any particular time.
EDIT2:
Towers (Damage)
Fortified Outpost: -5%
Watch Tower: -10%
Guard Tower: -15%
Keep Tower: -20%
Bombard Tower: -25%
Artillery Battery = -30%
Auto-Cannon Batter = -35%
Missile Battery = -40%
Railgun Battery = -45%
Laser Battery = -50%
Anti-Matter Battery = -60%
Ok so the plan is ...
Walls = Gradual Defense Increase + Doubled
Towers = Gradual Defense Increase + Larger Damage
What about the other stuff like traps, watch posts, castles, etc? Note I will do the Walls and Towers in the meantime.
EDIT: Here are the Stats ...
Walls (Defense)
Palisades = 20%
Earth Walls = 40%
Walls = 60%
High Walls = 80%
Barricades = 100%
Barbed Wire Fence = 120%
Cement Barrier = 140%
Arcology Shielding = 160%
Advanced Shielding = 180%
Towers (Defense)
Frontier Outpost = 5%
Fortified Outpost = 10%
Watch Tower = 15%
Guard Tower = 20%
Tower Keep = 25%
Bombard Tower = 30%
Artillery Battery = 40%
Auto-Cannon Batter = 60%
Missile Battery = 60%
Railgun Battery = 70%
Laser Battery = 80%
Anti-Matter Battery = 90%
Thus towers are roughly half as defensive as walls during any particular time.
EDIT2:
Towers (Damage)
Fortified Outpost: -5%
Watch Tower: -10%
Guard Tower: -15%
Keep Tower: -20%
Bombard Tower: -25%
Artillery Battery = -30%
Auto-Cannon Batter = -35%
Missile Battery = -40%
Railgun Battery = -45%
Laser Battery = -50%
Anti-Matter Battery = -60%
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Those are some good ideas. I will have to add them to my TODO list along with the different types of moats.
EDIT: I think walls could be broken up into 2 types of walls. The main wall and fences. So like ...
Walls
Barricades (Rifling) -> Cement Barrier (Manufacturing) -> "Metamaterial Wall" (Metamaterials) -> "Superstrong Alloy Wall" (Superstrong Alloys) -> "Megastrong Alloy Wall" (Megastrong Alloys)
Fences
Barricades (Rifling) -> Barbed Wire Fence (Barbed Wire) -> Electric Fence (Electronics) -> Wireless Electric Fence (Wireless Electricity) -> Arcology Shielding (Shielding) -> Advanced Shielding (Advanced Shielding)
I also like the nanobot idea so that could become a 3rd type of barrier.
Nanowalls
Nanobot Wall (Nanobotics) -> Smart Dust Wall (Smart Dust)
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ok, so everything you're saying I agree with H. I did suggest to have the walls range from 25 defense to 200 defense throughout that chart but if you didn't want to increase it that much it's not a big issue for me.
The 3 types of barrier defenses are awesome. How to differentiate them though? Perhaps walls (through to nanowalls which perhaps should just be the increasing improvement on that line) should also be good at providing, as SGT Slick suggested, an amount of Bombard Defense, while Fences bring with them some unique defenses against particular unit types at each stage? I can see Barbed Wire being great against Melee, Mounted, Wheeled (and perhaps animals though we'd have to be more specific like Canines as Birds wouldn't be influenced - if bird units ever become capable of attacking cities...) but ineffective against most other things. Apparently we really need a Defense vs UnitCombat tag! (It's been mentioned before in this conversation...)
And perhaps fences should also offer a repel VS combat class tag. At the moment my combat class repel tag is the amount of repel that would add to that sort of DEFENDER so I apparently need one for affecting any defender against a particular type of attacker. We also have a Combat Modifier by combat class on buildings for the city defenders to receive if they are that combat class and the Defense vs UnitCombat tag would be the opposite of that as well.
Which brings me to:
I personally feel that it was cannons being able to blast the walls to shreds so easily that obsoleted castles... not bullets. The stone still provides a pretty good defense for those manning a castle wall against gunfire. So in a sense, gunpowder in our model is actually irrelevant and what makes all those defenses of the middle ages obsolete is how easily newer bombard units can tear down the city defense values.
The 3 types of barrier defenses are awesome. How to differentiate them though? Perhaps walls (through to nanowalls which perhaps should just be the increasing improvement on that line) should also be good at providing, as SGT Slick suggested, an amount of Bombard Defense, while Fences bring with them some unique defenses against particular unit types at each stage? I can see Barbed Wire being great against Melee, Mounted, Wheeled (and perhaps animals though we'd have to be more specific like Canines as Birds wouldn't be influenced - if bird units ever become capable of attacking cities...) but ineffective against most other things. Apparently we really need a Defense vs UnitCombat tag! (It's been mentioned before in this conversation...)
And perhaps fences should also offer a repel VS combat class tag. At the moment my combat class repel tag is the amount of repel that would add to that sort of DEFENDER so I apparently need one for affecting any defender against a particular type of attacker. We also have a Combat Modifier by combat class on buildings for the city defenders to receive if they are that combat class and the Defense vs UnitCombat tag would be the opposite of that as well.
Which brings me to:
I'm not sure the iDefense really still only applies against gunpowder units but I'd love it if someone would let me know if that's still an issue. It may simply be that we need to eliminate that portion of the text reference. I'll look into it later this weekend if nobody can let me know til then.
I personally feel that it was cannons being able to blast the walls to shreds so easily that obsoleted castles... not bullets. The stone still provides a pretty good defense for those manning a castle wall against gunfire. So in a sense, gunpowder in our model is actually irrelevant and what makes all those defenses of the middle ages obsolete is how easily newer bombard units can tear down the city defense values.
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