The armour thread

Lol only Eastern army was Adrianople. No Roman armies would be transfarable. Roman cavalry would mainly be Illyrian or German believe.

Adrianople is heavily overexaggered. I had nothing to do with horsemenship or better tactics.

Non-Roman cataphracts got mauled many times. For example Lucullus Armenian campaign, Bassus and Cassius in Syria, Aurelian Paulmayre campaigns.

The Huns(who did not use shock tactics) were able to outmatnuver heavier Sarmatian cavalry. The Arab Mobile Guard mauled both Roman and Persian Cataphracts.
I was satirizing a popular point of view that I find to be ridiculous.

In reality, the Western Empire maintained establishments of various kinds of cavalry, all quite numerous. They possessed detachments of horse-archers, heavy cavalry, and lighter forces (lancers and scout cavalry both). They may also have employed cataphract cavalry, although I think that anything about that is based purely on guesswork. These cavalry formations had wide recruitment bases; while the Romans certainly enlisted soldiers from outside the Empire in these units, the bulk of their serving cavalry, as with their infantry, must necessarily have been born inside the Empire due to population numbers at the very least. At any rate, Maxentius certainly possessed large numbers of trained horsemen, and clibanarii are far from beyond the realm of possibility.

Yes, the Battle of Adrianople demonstrated nothing about the Western Empire's military because no western soldiers fought in it. Despite this rather glaringly obvious fact, many scholars once claimed that Adrianople indicated the Roman Empire's fatal weakness and presaged the West's fall.

Even more bizarrely, some went on to argue that the fall of Rome was based on a purely technical and tactical problem, namely: the Romans lacked heavy cavalry. The medieval era was, ostensibly, the era of cavalry supremacy on the battlefield, and the Battle of Adrianople was supposedly the first sign that heavy infantry (the stock-in-trade of the Romans) was weaker than heavy cavalry (the stock-in-trade of the medieval kingdoms that eventually were ruled by people claiming affiliation with some of the "tribes" that fought Rome). So heavy cavalry, according to these historians, explained the Battle of Adrianople. It also explained, they said, the success of the Goths and the Vandals in the first part of the fifth century, and then the success of the Huns in the succeeding decades.

There is only one problem with this reconstruction, namely: that it's complete codswallop. That has not prevented people from repeating it seriously, in pop-history books and on this very subforum. (The horror!) As such, it is easy to mock. Low-hanging fruit, as it were, kind of like the New York Knicks.

:p

Nice touch on mentioning Ventidius Bassus' campaigns in Syria. Not too many people know about the Battle of Kyrrhestike.
 
The Heavy Cavalry theory is just ridiculous. First off the Huns didn't use heavy cavalry. The Alans did yes. Rome already incorporated Sarmatian lancers into their army. German cavalry I believe were well known to be mounted infantry and "shock action" was not well known till Charlamene.

Adrianople is often overlooked. It was a political defeat more than anything.

The Battle
-Valens was really really unpopular. The church perferred Gratian.
-Valens had to use 2nd tier troops due to most of his field army being it Persia, only his cavalry were elites(Schoe).
-Valens negotiated with the Goths alot. Basically brining them in the empire would boost populations and economies. Many aristocrats mistreated the Goths without Valens' orders.
-the commander of the Roman cavalry was a Pagan Iberian I believe who charged without Valen's orders.

After the Battle.
-the Roman army was no means destroyed. At the Battle of Constantinople, Gothic troops were reproted to be "outnumbered"
-Theodosis was a very defensive commander prefering Fabian tactics and negotations due to his reputation with the church.
-Theodosis had to deal with the West, Barbrian allies would be prefect(ie. the Battle of Frigidus)
-Gratian moped up any Goths that weren't Roman allies.
-Roman citizens were highly paranoid, independent, feudal and local. Vegetius reports how they "lost their substance" and cannot barely even reorder themselves at Adrianople when the battle haven' even started. Basically the Goths provided good immigration labour and military service because they were a more united group than the "Romans"
 
One of my favorite designs was Dean et al.'s Model 8 helmet. It came with a visor that could be raised and lowered, and gave great protection against shrapnel and revolver fire at a little over 3.5 pounds or so. 1,300 were made by the Ford Motor Company, though they didn't seem to have seen action.

"But with the blast shield down, how am I supposed to fight?"

This is such a cool thread. Thanks for starting it! I would love some commentary on how the myths about armor came about. You already addressed the Mark Twain one with cranes, but what about drowning the wearer? Has anyone done experiments today to see if fit men could swim in a panoply or chain mail? There are many battles (which are sadly where most of my knowledge about this period lies) like Bannockburn and Stirling Bridge, for example, where soldiers attempting to swim to safety drowned. I don't know if you've seen the River Forth, but it's not big. You can throw a stone across it. Was the problem that so few people actually knew how to swim, or were they wearing scavenged armor not made for them which hindered their movement? Or is a steel breastplate just too heavy for water play?
 
Stirrups didn't make infantry obsolete....money did.

Stirrups don't provide shock charge, they just make a more mobile platform, better for prolonged melee and shooting.

Money?
 

Hmm in a time of finanical collapse, localism, and Civil Wars the Roman empire in the 4th century saw many troublespots all over the empire they cannot have enough time and management to deploy a massive army of infantrymen. So that is where a highly mobile cavalry force was set up by Gallienus.

Late Roman warfare was a lot like Medieval, since most was on sieges and raiding than pitch battles. In a small detatchment, cavalry becomes the more elite since they are the more mobilie soldiers. The Medieval state didn't have the money to field a highly disciplined infantry unit till the Reinnisance era. It relied on localism and feudal armies to muster.
 
Hmm in a time of finanical collapse, localism, and Civil Wars the Roman empire in the 4th century saw many troublespots all over the empire they cannot have enough time and management to deploy a massive army of infantrymen. So that is where a highly mobile cavalry force was set up by Gallienus.

Late Roman warfare was a lot like Medieval, since most was on sieges and raiding than pitch battles. In a small detatchment, cavalry becomes the more elite since they are the more mobilie soldiers. The Medieval state didn't have the money to field a highly disciplined infantry unit till the Reinnisance era. It relied on localism and feudal armies to muster.

Oh okay I see your point. Pre-"commercialized" (sue me) Europe had terrible monetary regimes and you're including late Rome in that. This would make the organization of armies a little more difficult since land commands a different economy than wages. One could make the case that monetary austerity helped make those years particularly bleak, with princes hoarding their coinage and not spending it/minting enough.
 
Oh okay I see your point. Pre-"commercialized" (sue me) Europe had terrible monetary regimes and you're including late Rome in that. This would make the organization of armies a little more difficult since land commands a different economy than wages. One could make the case that monetary austerity helped make those years particularly bleak, with princes hoarding their coinage and not spending it/minting enough.
That's a nice explanation that you two have come up with there. It's a shame that it's not true.
 
That's a nice explanation that you two have come up with there. It's a shame that it's not true.

Bull... dachs.. I know veterans of those late Roman campaigns and that's exactly what they say...

Plus, dated a Goth girl in college, so don't effin' argue with me about the fall of Rome, either, or I WILL be all over you faster than the Schlieffen Plan would have taken out Paris if Moltke hadn't chickened out.

Here's some SE Asian Armour, I think.

 
Why? Please explain.
Let me try to sketch out your line of reasoning. You claimed that the crisis of the third century inaugurated a period of fiscal problems for the Roman Empire that forced the Emperors to make cuts in Rome's hitherto-vast establishment of a combined-arms military, making it leaner and relying instead on a rapid-response force of heavy cavalry that could perform the mission done by the larger armies at a lower cost. This rapid-response force, you argue, was first established by the Emperor Gallienus, and other military leaders continued to draw on that basic example for the succeeding millennium. Thus the superiority of cavalry over infantry in medieval Europe. Once European rulers became wealthy again, in the Renaissance, you believe that they were once again able to create infantry units capable of standing up to cavalry. Hygro added to this explanation by describing medieval western Europe as possessing a decreasingly monetized economy characterized by hoarding and an increasing willingness to base economic transactions off of direct connections to whatever was done with a particular parcel of land.

In reality, late Roman history didn't work that way. The narrative of the so-called crisis of the third century has fallen out of fashion now, but even if one does agree that the third century involved a fair amount of political and military turmoil for Rome that doesn't mean that those effects continued. Gallienus did establish that cavalry unit at Mediolanum, true enough (although one might quibble about calling it a "reserve", etc.), but in the long run that unit didn't matter. The Illyrian Emperors and the Tetrarchs had no use for it, and why should they have? The Empire that they ran was more powerful than it had been at any point since Trajan, with full coffers, political stability, and a vast military establishment. Fourth-century Rome was prosperous in almost every sense of the word. Gallienus' cavalry unit ceased to exist within a few years of his death and played no role in an Empire that relied once again on hundreds of thousands of soldiers arrayed in a combined-arms force. The Romans of the fourth century didn't just have cavalry in their reserve forces: they built entire field armies of comitatenses and palatini, with all sorts of infantry and cavalry.

Yes, Rome eventually "fell", and few would dispute that a Great Simplification took place in Western European socioeconomic life over the following centuries. Coinage wasn't as stable or as widely used as a medium of exchange as it had once been. The rulers of medieval Western Europe undoubtedly had less money to throw around than the Romans had. Under those circumstances, though, why would anybody bother with cavalry? It'd be absurd: cavalry have always been fabulously expensive compared to infantry. Horsemen require much, much more training. The horses require care, feeding, shelter, shoeing, and so on. Since each horseman requires remounts in order to be at all useful, the amount of wealth necessary to sustain his military vocation increases exponentially. If tighter money were the chief driving factor, here, wouldn't we see a decline in European cavalry establishments?

Furthermore, I would dispute that the medieval era was a time during which cavalry reigned supreme to an extent that was unusual compared to the rest of history. Small numbers of trained medieval horsemen were often able to scatter larger forces of untrained infantry, but you see similar stories throughout history, not just in the medieval era. Formed infantry - and dismounted cavalry (!) - also won plenty of fights against forces chiefly comprised of cavalry during the period in question. Tours and Legnano were only the most famous such engagements.

You claimed that the late Roman and medieval European periods were marked by combat consisting primarily of sieges and raids rather than set-piece field battles, as opposed to history before and since. Again, I don't think that such an assertion is borne out by the facts. Battle has always been a lottery, and generals in every era of history have preferred to seek alternatives rather than resort too easily to rolling the iron dice. In fact, it's very easy to argue that the medieval era in western Europe, especially the sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth centuries, probably saw more pitched battles because sieges and raids were pointless: there were few cities or towns with appreciable amounts of wealth. Population centers were few and far between, coinage was scarce, and the overwhelming majority of the people were subsistence farmers. Most of the wealth in a realm would be tied up in a king's army and in the belongings of the people that followed that army. Battle would be the only way to get at that wealth.

But let's say for the sake of argument that medieval European warfare did mostly consist of sieges and raids. Wouldn't that increase the value of infantry relative to cavalry? Infantry are much, much more useful in siege actions. They can man defenses, tunnel, and sap. They don't possess large quantities of horse that need to be groomed, fed, and maintained during the siege.

To sum up: I think that the explanation you put forward is more or less true in one important respect. Rome did maintain a humongous well-trained army, and after Rome was gone nobody in Western Europe could dream of having such a force for centuries. This was undoubtedly due in no small part to the Great Simplification (a post-Roman development, not a development of the third century). Rulers lacked the money and the population and the institutions and the authority to amass large, well-trained military forces on the same scale as Rome. (This should be glaringly obvious to everyone except Bernard Bachrach.) Wealth was therefore not a cause of the changed military situation, but rather the two things were symptoms of something else. I also do not believe that there was some sort of sea change in the way cavalry and infantry worked relative to each other in Western Europe during this time period.
 
Hah! You crack me up, Dachs :clap:

I find nothing to disagree with. I will reiterate my part of early medieval Europe being a time of really bad money policies. They were still generally using Roman coinage to legitimize their rule. Which they also hoarded of course. But since a person's yearly food supply per farmer dropped to something like 1.8 a year for a while (not a great book but some interesting figures), everyone was producing so little that money couldn't buy additional survival, so why not hoard it anyway? But they overhoarded it regardless.

I'm getting this from Peter Spufford's book on medieval money, the opening chapter. It's amazing how well you can prove economics with a real detailed account of the historical record. Too bad he wasn't an economist :p

I'm pretty sure you don't disagree with me here. But if you do, fire away!
 
all set to go if you have basic repulsor lift tech to assist the hauling of the armour plates . Though more ladders even if collapsible would have been good .

apologies , ı didn't see the rungs on the legs clearly .
 
Hygro said:
I will reiterate my part of early medieval Europe being a time of really bad money policies.
I'm not actually sure if this is true or not. Certainly, early medieval Europe didn't use coinage, for the most part, to pay troops. But that could as easily have been a rational economic choice given for example the relative the abundance of fertile land.

Hygro said:
They were still generally using Roman coinage to legitimize their rule.
You don't fix what ain't broke.
 
I'm not actually sure if this is true or not. Certainly, early medieval Europe didn't use coinage, for the most part, to pay troops. But that could as easily have been a rational economic choice given for example the relative the abundance of fertile land.
Spufford's account is the most compelling I've read, certainly, and it makes a pretty clear case that economic activity declined with the sheer amount of hoarding. But I wouldn't make the case that was the only factor in play.

They broke it! :p
 
I'm not actually sure if this is true or not. Certainly, early medieval Europe didn't use coinage, for the most part, to pay troops. But that could as easily have been a rational economic choice given for example the relative the abundance of fertile land.

So why did the Romans, with vastly more fertile land at their disposal, choose to pay their soldiers in coins?
 
So why did the Romans, with vastly more fertile land at their disposal, choose to pay their soldiers in coins?
The Romans notably also paid their soldiers in land.
 
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