Ideology, Individuality and Groupthink

Flying Pig

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As is often the case, I've come across a question in the 'Questions not worth their own thread' thread which does merit its own thread. As part of a discussion of political ideologies, the point was raised that the word 'ideology' can seem to encompass people with no identification with each other at all, but who simply think in a certain way which causes them to make similar political decisions. This extended, as a tangent, into the judgement:

Kaiserguard said:
History is judged too systematically, neglecting the decisions made by individuals

How much can one individual influence history? The notion of a 'Great Man' who changes the world with only his own willpower sits uncomfortably with the understanding that people are products of their societies, and that the way we think is conditioned on every level by the world in which we grow up. Even then, the practicalities of making a difference make doing anything truly monumental alone seem incredibly difficult. The greatest leader still has to have people willing to follow him; the greatest artist still has to find an appreciative public or he'll be forgotten. Where does this leave the individual? Are there examples from history of a single person truly 'changing the course of history'?
 
Alexander is one obvious one (I'd genuinely like to see somebody argue against that). But such people become rarer the further you progress in history. It's much easy to be a hero in an ancient kingdom or city-state than in 18th century Europe.
 
I've heard Alexander argued against convincingly on here, though I think it was from Dachs, who isn't usually around any more. The gist of the argument was that Macedonian success in the war against Persia was largely a product of the superior Macedonian army and Persian weakness than Alexander's generalship: we get an exaggerated picture of the latter's importance because all of the primary sources (mostly now lost) were written by his entourage of historians and poets. Dachs pointed out that the manoeuvres which put the Macedonian army in that position - such as the acquisition of plentiful silver, the gaining of ground in Greece and a major tactical overhaul in light of recent Greek developments - were carried out by Philip II, Alexander's father, and that he'd even begun the war in question, though not actually invaded Persia. It was certainly much easier to be portrayed as a hero in the ancient world, though I don't think that made actually being one any easier. Certainly, even if we accept that Alexander was a truly great general, his battles necessarily depended on any number of subordinate officers and adjutants who saw to the actual running of things while the king got stuck in at the front.
 
But Hellenism wouldn't have existed if the man hadn't decided to blend the cultures instead of being absorbed my Mesopotamia's culture like all its previous invaders had.
 
Maybe, but could it not be said that Greek cultural superiority was a big part of Greek culture, itself defined by the Persian Wars? The Greek:Barbarian dichotomy didn't exist to such an extent in other cultures. Also, in a practical sense, the Greeks did get absorbed by the culture of their conquered territories; Hellenistic Egypt, Iran, Bactria and Macedonia were very different places, the former being especially marked by a continuation of pre-existing Egyptian ways of thinking about and doing things. Looked at from another angle, could he really have dragged that many Greek speakers so far across the world and opened up so many opportunities for a people known for settling distant lands and not spread enclaves of Greek culture?
 
I've heard Alexander argued against convincingly on here, though I think it was from Dachs, who isn't usually around any more. The gist of the argument was that Macedonian success in the war against Persia was largely a product of the superior Macedonian army and Persian weakness than Alexander's generalship: we get an exaggerated picture of the latter's importance because all of the primary sources (mostly now lost) were written by his entourage of historians and poets. Dachs pointed out that the manoeuvres which put the Macedonian army in that position - such as the acquisition of plentiful silver, the gaining of ground in Greece and a major tactical overhaul in light of recent Greek developments - were carried out by Philip II, Alexander's father, and that he'd even begun the war in question, though not actually invaded Persia. It was certainly much easier to be portrayed as a hero in the ancient world, though I don't think that made actually being one any easier. Certainly, even if we accept that Alexander was a truly great general, his battles necessarily depended on any number of subordinate officers and adjutants who saw to the actual running of things while the king got stuck in at the front.

Well, ancient historical figures are inherently more likely to be Great Men, given that everything was on a smaller scale with fewer actors. Don't tell me Salamis wasn't contingent. And whether or not Macedonian success was a product of other factors, two people totally changing the course of history prove the same principle as one. Finally the Persian empire would almost certainly have survived in any case without Alexander, and would have been a very different entity to the Seleucids.

I'd love to know how Dachs could make those arguments, btw. I've read Peter Green's book on Alex as well as Alexander to Actium, and I could even begin to argue for any thesis.
 
Well, ancient historical figures are inherently more likely to be Great Men, given that everything was on a smaller scale with fewer actors. Don't tell me Salamis wasn't contingent. And whether or not Macedonian success was a product of other factors, two people totally changing the course of history prove the same principle as one. And, finally the Persian empire would almost certainly have survived in any case without Alexander, and would have been a very different entity to the Seleucids.

I'd love to know how Dachs could make those arguments, btw. I've read Peter Green's book on him as well as Alexander to Actium, and I could even begin to argue for any thesis.

Dachs' point, I think, was that it was doomed as soon as Philip took charge, and that Alexander (and, I assume Philip), although gifted, didn't do anything which any other gifted Macedonian leader wouldn't have done eventually with much the same outcome. I admit that I'm relaying this second-hand, but it was one of the few occasions where a CFC discussion has totally changed my mind about something. My own reading on Alexander is woefully lacking, unfortunately.
 
I would caution that while I am strong supporter of viewing history through the lens of individuals and not systems, one must be wary of great man theories. Most of the time, decisions by individuals that are highly influential are indeed the most impactful. However, that doesn't mean that, say, peasants can't influence it either. A peasant may throw a rock at a king and forever influence his way of thinking. You can't predict or systemise things. It runs parallel with Nassim Taleb's concept of Black Swans.
 
Dachs' point, I think, was that it was doomed as soon as Philip took charge, and that Alexander (and, I assume Philip), although gifted, didn't do anything which any other gifted Macedonian leader wouldn't have done eventually with much the same outcome. I admit that I'm relaying this second-hand, but it was one of the few occasions where a CFC discussion has totally changed my mind about something. My own reading on Alexander is woefully lacking, unfortunately.

I'm saying in principle. I've read far more than anyone I know in meatworld, but I don't understand how real study is done.

I would caution that while I am strong supporter of viewing history through the lens of individuals and not systems, one must be wary of great man theories. Most of the time, decisions by individuals that are highly influential are indeed the most impactful. However, that doesn't mean that, say, peasants can't influence it either. A peasant may throw a rock at a king and forever influence his way of thinking. You can't predict or systemise things. It runs parallel with Nassim Taleb's concept of Black Swans.

Which I'm guessing you don't understand?
 
Maybe, but could it not be said that Greek cultural superiority was a big part of Greek culture, itself defined by the Persian Wars? The Greek:Barbarian dichotomy didn't exist to such an extent in other cultures. Also, in a practical sense, the Greeks did get absorbed by the culture of their conquered territories; Hellenistic Egypt, Iran, Bactria and Macedonia were very different places, the former being especially marked by a continuation of pre-existing Egyptian ways of thinking about and doing things. Looked at from another angle, could he really have dragged that many Greek speakers so far across the world and opened up so many opportunities for a people known for settling distant lands and not spread enclaves of Greek culture?
Not spread enclaves of Greek culture? Yes, he could have. He could have simply conquered the places and imposed tributes and governors on them like many other conquerors had done before him and did after him.
 
Oh yes, but my point is that he didn't control the spread of Greeks: people would still have moved East in search of new land and opportunity (or in exile) and lived in enclaves, soldiers would still have found wives and settled together for protection and carried on living like Greeks, and so on. In actual fact what he ended up doing was largely as you described, simply as a result of the practicalities of things. In India he left the defeated Porus to rule over his old territory as a client monarch, and elsewhere his governors were so far from central oversight as to be effectively independent rulers - a problem which proved fatal to the empires of his successors, especially the Seleucids.
 
Hellenism was such a short-lived and shallow phenomenon that I'm not even sure why people care about it so much? In like half its notional range (i.e. the part the Romans didn't conquer) it got rolled back in short order and had little lasting impact. In the other half (i.e. the stuff that the Romans conquered) it remained confined to the cities, e.g. Alexandria, and never penetrated much past those. It's cool, I guess, but I don't think that the settling of what amounted to military garrisons actually spread that much Greek culture? I guess I just find the attention given to it a little weird.
 
But Hellenism wouldn't have existed if the man hadn't decided to blend the cultures instead of being absorbed my Mesopotamia's culture like all its previous invaders had.
Is that something that an individual can "decide" to do? Let alone when that individual has no actual program and no apparatus for actually carrying out that program beyond the really pretty standard practice of marrying his lieutenants into the local nobility? Syncretism isn't exactly unusual in human history; there's no clear reason to attribute this particular example to Alexander simply because it kinda-sorta looked like an ideal he espoused.

I agree that late 20th century historical scholarship has often tended to be too structural and to neglect individual decision-making, but a return to the Great Man is just not tenable in light of that scholarship. The problem facing historians today isn't the decisions of towering supermen, it's the decisions of myriad individuals all crashing into each other half-blindly: dozens in even the narrowest diplomatic history, and thousands if not millions in any cultural or social history.

Alexander is one obvious one (I'd genuinely like to see somebody argue against that). But such people become rarer the further you progress in history. It's much easy to be a hero in an ancient kingdom or city-state than in 18th century Europe.
Do they become rarer, or do other people gain a stronger presence in the historical record?

It's not self-evident that Alexander was any more a Great Man than Cortez or Napoleon or Lenin, only that in the latter examples we have an increasingly clear idea of what everybody else was doing around them.
 
Hellenism was such a short-lived and shallow phenomenon that I'm not even sure why people care about it so much? In like half its notional range (i.e. the part the Romans didn't conquer) it got rolled back in short order and had little lasting impact. In the other half (i.e. the stuff that the Romans conquered) it remained confined to the cities, e.g. Alexandria, and never penetrated much past those. It's cool, I guess, but I don't think that the settling of what amounted to military garrisons actually spread that much Greek culture? I guess I just find the attention given to it a little weird.

It actually did have quite a lasting effect, even in the parts which the Romans didn't take over - which, by the way, were much more sparsely populated and therefore harder to influence culturally by any top-down method. Certainly in Afghanistan some people were still speaking Greek after 263BC (when Ashoka wrote to them about Buddhism, and did so in Greek and Aramaic), and there's a group called the Kalash in Pakistan who have pale skin and a pagan religion and claim to be descended from Alexander's soldiers - and apparently did have an infusion of European genes into their gene-pool between 900 and 210 BC. Greeks ruled in the area possibly as late as 10 BC, which isn't bad going.

Secondly, I'm not sure it's correct to describe the spread of Greeks as purely a matter of military garrisons - that did happen, but what was important was the movement of civilian settlers. Alexandria became the greatest city of the Mediterranean out of nothing because Greeks were encouraged to move there, and Bactria was settled first by exiles and later by adventurers much like the American frontier - people went abroad because they wanted a new start in a young country with easy access to land.

I also think it's a mistake to discount the importance of 'Hellenisation' (a deeply problematic term, but for lack of a better one) in Roman territory, because the very fact that the Greek language and aspects of the culture became so entrenched on totally foreign people in a relatively short time is impressive. Greek outlasted Latin in the East, and indeed effectively blocked the spread of the latter. True, it was largely an urban, elite phenomenon, but isn't that true for the spread of Roman culture into Britain, or of British culture into India - both of which had profound effects?

Does anyone have a link to that specific Dachs post?

I can't find it; there ought to be some way of telling the search engine to look only for impressive posts.
 
Flying Pig said:
It actually did have quite a lasting effect, even in the parts which the Romans didn't take over - which, by the way, were much more sparsely populated and therefore harder to influence culturally by any top-down method.

I'm not sure if that's the case? The Tigris/Euphrates is about as populated an area as Egypt so those in crude terms would cancel each other out. As to the rest, I'd only rate the coastal plains of Asia Minor, Cilicia and the coastal strip running down to say Mount Lebanon as being worth a damn. I guess the Romans got a bit that had a better mix of 'good stuff' but I'm not sure if it was worth more than the other stuff on balance? I'm also not sure if Hellenization achieved much more in those areas than elsewhere insofar as it remained confined to urban areas. Part of the problem I suspect is that I'm not as familiar with the Seleucids than I am with the Roman side of things. :dunno:

Flying Pig said:
Certainly in Afghanistan some people were still speaking Greek after 263BC (when Ashoka wrote to them about Buddhism, and did so in Greek and Aramaic), and there's a group called the Kalash in Pakistan who have pale skin and a pagan religion and claim to be descended from Alexander's soldiers - and apparently did have an infusion of European genes into their gene-pool between 900 and 210 BC. Greeks ruled in the area possibly as late as 10 BC, which isn't bad going.
That's all interesting. Don't get me wrong. But think of it this way: the Hephthalites lasted two hundred years and the Duranni (and more broadly, I think, Pashtuns) seem to claim them as ancestors. I have no idea how accurate this belief is but it does speak to the influence of the Hephthalites.

Flying Pig said:
Secondly, I'm not sure it's correct to describe the spread of Greeks as purely a matter of military garrisons - that did happen, but what was important was the movement of civilian settlers. Alexandria became the greatest city of the Mediterranean out of nothing because Greeks were encouraged to move there, and Bactria was settled first by exiles and later by adventurers much like the American frontier - people went abroad because they wanted a new start in a young country with easy access to land.

I'm not sure if it's true to call them civilians though. It sort of worked like this: Baktria Greeks were obliged to render military service. So people moving to Baktria did so knowing that they would have to serve. (I guess that's not all that different from elsewhere in the Greek world but it's important to keep in mind that the distinction between soldier and civilian wasn't all that stark for male Greeks). I'm also not altogether sure if land was what drew Greeks to Baktria because the new Greek ruled territories were immense and must have had lots of surplus land in aggregate. I think the promise of incentives and perks seems to be a rather more realistic rationale for migration. I would tend therefore to think that the model for Baktrian settlement (and I guess the Seleucids) is more Spanish America than American Frontier.

Flying Pig said:
I also think it's a mistake to discount the importance of 'Hellenisation' (a deeply problematic term, but for lack of a better one) in Roman territory, because the very fact that the Greek language and aspects of the culture became so entrenched on totally foreign people in a relatively short time is impressive. Greek outlasted Latin in the East, and indeed effectively blocked the spread of the latter. True, it was largely an urban, elite phenomenon, but isn't that true for the spread of Roman culture into Britain, or of British culture into India - both of which had profound effects?
This is a good point and I agree. But I think it's important to note that Greek did not supplant other languages in the East. Aramaic and Coptic continued to be written and spoken. I can't think of a comparable language in the West that survived in a written and spoken form? Even in Britain Latin seems to have been quite spread even if it didn't supplant Brythonic entirely (the extent to which it did supplant Brythonic is, I think, a hot topic) and Britain was something of an outlier in that because pretty much everywhere else Latin killed off local languages. Greek did supplant local languages but I think that the most in-roads were made in Asia Minor. Elsewhere? Not so much luck.
 
My reaction to practically all of that post was 'yes, that's sensible, I agree with you there' - so I hope you'll excuse me only commenting on small parts.

I'm also not sure if Hellenization achieved much more in those areas than elsewhere insofar as it remained confined to urban areas. Part of the problem I suspect is that I'm not as familiar with the Seleucids than I am with the Roman side of things. :dunno:

I don't think we should assume that Hellenisation (as if it were a deliberate policy of Alexander's state, with clear goals in mind) was designed to make all of the people in the conquered lands indistinguishable from Greeks. Being a by-product of the ruling class, all that we can say beyond doubt is that it was 'designed' (consciously or not) as a means of increasing their control. To do that, it only really needed to spread to the cities, as actual state oversight in rural areas - especially in parts of the world like the Egyptian desert or Afghanistan, where it's weak even today - was practically non-existent. So in order to set himself up as the most powerful ruler he could reasonably expect to be, a ruler only had to control the cities and he could rule in peace, collect his taxes and raise his armies without many rural people noticing a particularly big change. It's certainly significant that I can't think of a single Greek monarchy that was overthrown by anything other than a foreign invasion.

That's all interesting. Don't get me wrong. But think of it this way: the Hephthalites lasted two hundred years and the Duranni (and more broadly, I think, Pashtuns) seem to claim them as ancestors. I have no idea how accurate this belief is but it does speak to the influence of the Hephthalites.

Or the insignificance of people claiming Macedonians as ancestors, but I take your point.

I'm not sure if it's true to call them civilians though. It sort of worked like this: Baktria Greeks were obliged to render military service. So people moving to Baktria did so knowing that they would have to serve. (I guess that's not all that different from elsewhere in the Greek world but it's important to keep in mind that the distinction between soldier and civilian wasn't all that stark for male Greeks).

That was true in all parts of the ancient world, though - the distinction I was trying to draw was between men who were posted abroad and settled down and people who decided to move abroad from their homes in the motherland. Soldiering as a profession only really came in with the Romans.

I'm also not altogether sure if land was what drew Greeks to Baktria because the new Greek ruled territories were immense and must have had lots of surplus land in aggregate. I think the promise of incentives and perks seems to be a rather more realistic rationale for migration. I would tend therefore to think that the model for Baktrian settlement (and I guess the Seleucids) is more Spanish America than American Frontier.

They certainly did create colonies of military veterans to hasten the process. What might have been attractive about Bactria (rather than, say, Egypt or Babylonia) was its remoteness and relative emptiness - after all, there was hardly a shortage of land in the east while American settlers were travelling west. If you wanted, for whatever reason, a fresh start away from the governments of the world with which you were familiar, there probably wasn't a better place.

Britain was something of an outlier in that because pretty much everywhere else Latin killed off local languages. Greek did supplant local languages but I think that the most in-roads were made in Asia Minor. Elsewhere? Not so much luck.

The comparison isn't a great one because practically all of the peoples conquered in the west were illiterate or used writing only in extremely limited contexts - the Celtic druids used Greek letters, but they were targeted particularly early on for extermination. It's a lot easier to destroy a language when it doesn't leave anything behind in the first place; if you wanted to interact with the state's bureaucracy at any level in the west, you had to learn Latin because that was the only way of reading or writing anything, or communicating with a Roman official. In the east, where people could read and write Greek and the Romans could speak it, that wasn't the case, so there was not the same pressing need. You also had more migration in the west towards the end of the empire, bringing in totally new languages. Celtic survived in Wales and Brittany, of course, and Basque predates Latin. It's quite likely that related languages were spoken in much of northern Spain until after the fall of Rome, and no doubt there were other small languages which remained in the empire's territory until the Medieval period. Italy, certainly, had so many different dialects (on the day of unification something like 2% of Italians spoke 'standard Italian') that it's not unreasonable to suggest that they would have been practically different languages even at the end of the empire.
 
Flying Pig said:
My reaction to practically all of that post was 'yes, that's sensible, I agree with you there' - so I hope you'll excuse me only commenting on small parts.
Yeah, it's fine. I don't think there's a definite answer to this. For all that this exchange is at least interesting.

Flying Pig said:
I don't think we should assume that Hellenisation (as if it were a deliberate policy of Alexander's state, with clear goals in mind) was designed to make all of the people in the conquered lands indistinguishable from Greeks. Being a by-product of the ruling class, all that we can say beyond doubt is that it was 'designed' (consciously or not) as a means of increasing their control. To do that, it only really needed to spread to the cities, as actual state oversight in rural areas - especially in parts of the world like the Egyptian desert or Afghanistan, where it's weak even today - was practically non-existent.

Yeah, that's quite reasonable. In this sense, I don't think it's that different to how the Republic/Principate worked. So no disagreement there, I guess. I guess the counterpoint is that Latin and Romanitas triumphed in the West in a way that Greek couldn't manage.

So in order to set himself up as the most powerful ruler he could reasonably expect to be, a ruler only had to control the cities and he could rule in peace, collect his taxes and raise his armies without many rural people noticing a particularly big change. It's certainly significant that I can't think of a single Greek monarchy that was overthrown by anything other than a foreign invasion.

I can think of one: Diodotus II who was overthrown by Euthydemus I.

Flying Pig said:
That was true in all parts of the ancient world, though - the distinction I was trying to draw was between men who were posted abroad and settled down and people who decided to move abroad from their homes in the motherland. Soldiering as a profession only really came in with the Romans.
Sure, I guess. But I'm not sure I'd date it to the Romans? I guess the Romans finished the process of professionalization. But the Argyraspides for example were professionals.

Flying Pig said:
They certainly did create colonies of military veterans to hasten the process. What might have been attractive about Bactria (rather than, say, Egypt or Babylonia) was its remoteness and relative emptiness - after all, there was hardly a shortage of land in the east while American settlers were travelling west. If you wanted, for whatever reason, a fresh start away from the governments of the world with which you were familiar, there probably wasn't a better place.

I guess. But I'm not sure if one would go that far for just land. I presume that other things e.g. slaves and cash were offered to make it more attractive. It just makes more sense to me. Land was a-ok but one wants to move up in the world as it were when making this kind of trip.

Flying Pig said:
The comparison isn't a great one because practically all of the peoples conquered in the west were illiterate or used writing only in extremely limited contexts - the Celtic druids used Greek letters, but they were targeted particularly early on for extermination. It's a lot easier to destroy a language when it doesn't leave anything behind in the first place; if you wanted to interact with the state's bureaucracy at any level in the west, you had to learn Latin because that was the only way of reading or writing anything, or communicating with a Roman official. In the east, where people could read and write Greek and the Romans could speak it, that wasn't the case, so there was not the same pressing need. You also had more migration in the west towards the end of the empire, bringing in totally new languages. Celtic survived in Wales and Brittany, of course, and Basque predates Latin. It's quite likely that related languages were spoken in much of northern Spain until after the fall of Rome, and no doubt there were other small languages which remained in the empire's territory until the Medieval period. Italy, certainly, had so many different dialects (on the day of unification something like 2% of Italians spoke 'standard Italian') that it's not unreasonable to suggest that they would have been practically different languages even at the end of the empire.

Yeah, that's true. But I'm not sure if writing is the determinative factor in whether or not a language survives. Like we have Coptic, Aramaic/Syriac and Hebrew as examples of well attested written languages that survived. (And I think Hebrew is something of a special case because Classical Hebrew went extinct in the 400s and had to be reconstructed). We have Punic in the West that didn't. So it's two survivals in the East plus one part extinction examples against one extinction in the West. But we also have a number of languages that weren't written that have survived in the East e.g. Armenian. I'm sure there's others? I'm not sure what to make of this.
 
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