Proposed Properties

How will universities be once education is implemented? In real life universities probably provide more research than everything else combined, especially when it comes to basic research, and they spend more resources on research than education. I feel that it would be quite odd if they became entirely focused on education in C2C.
 
4)MrAzure suggested, in the bugs thread, a way to graphically fix the property panel in cities so that the scrollbar doesn't sit over the top of the numeric displays in relation to their properties but apparently though suggested and tested, it has not yet been implemented? Why not? It really needs to be immediately done!

It has not been done because I am not modding for C2C any more. I am just tidying up a few things before I move on.
 
It has not been done because I am not modding for C2C any more.

So all the stuff i asked for is gone?? (Barbarian stuff, Religious stuff, WLBO stuff, Bad Karma stuff, Migrating Great People stuff, Bad People Stuff, i know i forgot some stuff, but have waited for 2 years or more already, but heck, now i even forgot:p:old: ;)
 
So all the stuff i asked for is gone?? (Barbarian stuff, Religious stuff, WLBO stuff, Bad Karma stuff, Migrating Great People stuff, Bad People Stuff, i know i forgot some stuff, but have waited for 2 years or more already, but heck, now i even forgot:p:old: ;)

As I mentioned to you and Joseph_II, I will be taking c2c v33.x and making C2C- Evolving Religions. It will take quite awhile as it will require some changes to the cultural system as well as the tech tree. Some of the things I will be adding there should move into c2C without problems (since I build in a modular format).

Restricted Movement (Ancient to Classical only) and the WLBO stuff for Indigenous Peoples (diplomacy through terrorism) are two things I will be having in the mod which should be easily moved into C2C.

The Bad Karma stuff I will probably do as a visiting modder to c2C. They are nice separate bits that can fit in any c2c mod. This includes the Pesky Barbarians by Platyping and the pirate and bandit stuff MrAzure is interested in.

I disagree with the Migrating Great people as it stands but would probably agree to a Migrating Great Person Heritage instead. I got no feedback on Bad People so assumed it was not interesting. The current implementation is to shallow even with Hydro's input so far.

The one thing I will need to work with Thunderbrd on is extending the great people. Adding the Great Hunter and Great Admiral and getting the correct GP heritage (specialists) to give exp to the correct units.
 
The Bad Karma stuff I will probably do as a visiting modder to c2C. They are nice separate bits that can fit in any c2c mod. This includes the Pesky Barbarians by Platyping and the pirate and bandit stuff MrAzure is interested in.

Well "something" is better than "nothing.":p
 
How will universities be once education is implemented? In real life universities probably provide more research than everything else combined, especially when it comes to basic research, and they spend more resources on research than education. I feel that it would be quite odd if they became entirely focused on education in C2C.

They will mostly give education but since they are required to build most Labs they indirectly produce science though them.
 
@TB

Ok so to review the Education property, unlike the crime property I thought it could be used to unlock buildable buildings. However it was explained that while it could do that it also messed up when the education threshold went below. And showed it was buildable again when it wasn't. And even if you tried you could not. Correect?
Well... the original implementation was in error and there was a bug on the other tag that Alberts pointed out and helped me to fix. At this time the other tag may be successfully employed to establish a prerequisite but the text on it should be fixed so that it doesn't state the prerequisite to be the property RATE but rather the property value in the city. That's not that hard so this COULD be done... but...

So you went and commented out that code. So now the auto-build eduction builds still work but the buildable ones do not. This is still works out since the auto-build building still give the education property a purpose and work much like pollution or crime in that they auto-build at different education levels.

As for the system that unlocked buildable buildings, this is no more, however like I said its not so bad because the requirements the buildings had such as requiring a University for a Biology Lab or a Chemistry lab also indirectly did what the education property was suppose to be doing.
The remaining autobuild buildings are a great way to implement the majority of the effect of the property I feel. I'll give some examples of the stats I think they should have below.

I definitely agree that having education prerequisites on buildings is largely covered by other building prerequisites and becomes an overlapping, redundant prerequisite.

Tourism, Luxury and Entertainment properties are set up as properties but do not have any building implementation yet (expect for the Tourism Achievement NW). This is fine for now since its not hurting anything in the mod other than you can see them.
It MAY have some relation to Flinx's issue with the Advisor - there might be a point in the UI where we have put in too many the way it currently is. So perhaps at the moment it might work better if only Education is included. I still feel it would be wise to attempt to modularize the structure (and not all too difficult either.) If nobody else will do it, I will distract myself from the combat mod progression to do it. And if I do it, it'll be a game option instead of simply modular.

Education on the other hand has a real effect on the game thankls to those auto-build building. And even though unlocking buildable buildings with the education property is not working I still think that having it is the mod for release is worth it and works.
Having the property in the release that approaches is fine imo but it should be more thought out and playtested. Right now, testing shows it does little but frustrate.

In addition we could have the health and science buildings require the auto-build buildings instead of the education property. However I think this solution is too messy and gives a too ridged solution. I would rather not have those disabled than try this proposal.
Yeah, ugh.

It was stated that the buildings should go inactive beneath a particular level and this is achieved with other systems with a switch system - all or nothing. Personally, I would rather see buildings become less valuable at lower Education levels rather than go completely inactive. That can be done.


I feel that the set of 20 education auto-building are still worth having and DO add up since they are additive and do not replace each other. I also feel that they could be added-on to to make them more potent if we want to go that way.
Oh yes, definitely. I'm very much in support of making this the core of the process. I've just been told we're going out in a minute so I'll try to work up a document to suggest values for these levels later on so I can make a proper proposal on that.


I like this idea if it can be done. Seems like a great way to help the player visualize whats going on.
What I guess gets me here is MrAzure told us how to do it and apparently tested it successfully on his system before mentioning it so I'm not sure why it wasn't then committed to the SVN... If I'VE got to sort this out that'd kinda suck for me cuz python still confuses me somewhat.

@DH: words for you in a moment!

This is not entirely true. I have left the science from techs or resources stuff. So while the major focus of these places is to produce education property some still do give science. Just MUCH less than before. I know this feels when playing like the game you have your hand tied behind your back, but overall it should fix the problem of having so much science and speeding through the techs even on slower speeds.
Speeding through the techs could, and I think should, be solved by adjusting the tech costs across the board. Make them cost more and you alleviate the problem. Taking away the research on those buildings entirely not only doesn't quite feel right and violates some standard player expectations in Civ, it also is a little bit of a breach of rationale. I can understand where you're coming from and I'm not against slashing their research values and by making them add to the property you're making them justify their costs a bit more. But I would advise strongly against taking away the BASE values entirely. Leave just a little green at least I'd think.

And if we have a problem with research going too fast (which I feel we somewhat do but when you think about it at the root, this is our disagreement with SGT Slick - he'd prefer build costs force a player to choose what to build carefully while I would prefer tech costs take longer so that more conflict and warfare may be supported within a given era without the tech race so easily overcoming warfare building attempts. The balance, as I see it, is quite simple: Build Costs vs Tech Costs. That's why we were trying to get this alternative Game Speed option setup so that it would support the players who want their challenge on the build side. If we can get it to work we can do another which puts the challenge on the tech side instead which I think from this conversation I can presume you and I would prefer.


Not necessarily. If you do not have enough students to take those classes then even the smart students will not have a class to go to.
Here's the problem... a large city is going to have more population diffusion on the property. Without a population diffusion then all the property really is is a measurement of how quickly you were able to build the buildings that added education. We need a few other ways to drain education levels from the city to make it worthy from a strategic perspective and population makes sense to do this if the property is a representative of averages.

But we must also assume too that although a large city will naturally have a lower education level because of the greater difficulty in handling that many students, it also attracts some of the most educated people from all over. People don't just stay put in one spot. And an average is often a skewed perspective - take the US income level for example, where you have 90% of the wealth owned by 10% of the population making it appear, by how much those few make, that everyone here would crap gold bricks on a bad day. We know there's nothing further from the truth and if you're a common citizen your wealth is actually lower than the global standard. An average education level in a city would work the same way.

So if we propagated the education properties from cities to the Player level (which AIAndy indicated was possible somewhere but I'm not sure how you'd SEE the properties on the player level - and THAT would require an expression tag to setup prereqs on buildings) you could get something that would be a rational building prerequisite value.

However, for these reasons prereqs off the property value of the city itself doesn't seem to make much sense, are a bit redundant, and give our players who must work with even more troublesome prerequisites in C2C than any other mod even more reason to complain. We want to add challenges, yes, but we don't want to make the mod a royal pain in the arse to play. At times, our prereq structure as intricate as it already is, already has.


I wanted to put this but I was not sure how. However on the negative 10 they do have a reduction to War Weariness. So indirectly if you city has a high education level then they will be more upset from war than if they were not educated.
War Weariness increasing with the property makes a lot of sense too. As would Anarchy times. I can find and point out the stability modifiers when I get to the proposal.


Good idea. I also assume that the dumber you get the harder it is to get GP right? Or can that property not be a negative?
Yes definitely. Might even have an effect on Great General emergence too. And it CAN be made negative - well, not the overall GP income no but the % modifier to the GP income can be. I'll look into the tags for those too later.


This is implemented though +/- Flammability, Crime and Disease. This is heavily based on the Sim City model.
+1 on each step is insufficient and it should be population based so should operate on tag uses similar to SGTSlick's traits tags. Buildings can have these effects too. What I mean would be:
1st negative Education Level: +1 Crime / 3 population
2nd negative Education Level: +1 Crime / 2 population (not sure if this would be cumulative or not - if is cumulative then we'd need to simply add +1 Crime/3population at each stage)
3rd negative Education Level: +1 Crime / population

And the opposite achieves negative crime modifiers. Then similar for other propts.

Commerce means gold, science, culture so maybe. I see what you mean it just a slippery slope when it comes to commerce. Especially when we have other properties like Luxury and Tourism which undoubtedly will influence commerce in some way.
Perhaps +increasing % on all YIELDS only would be sufficient.

RE:population requires more food at higher education levels:
I would agree with that.
Cool.


Could you give an example of what you mean?
Ok, rather than say a Healer's Hut must have 150 Education value to be built, use tags on the autobuildings that give the Healer's hut +1 Health at 150 then lower the +2 Health on the Healer's Hut (assuming that's what it has... dunno for sure) to a base of +1 instead so that the AI still knows its a health building. Then maybe give it a bonus +1 at 500 Education or something like that. We have building tags that modify other local buildings right?

I formatted the education properties as mentioned by alfred2.

Put the attached file into a module (maybe tweaks in Hydro's folder) and insert the correct schema.
Education properties do now work, the values are stored over assets changes.

Removed teh file as it coused the Domestic Advisor to stop working! :eek:
Just by changing the one bool so that it doesn't lose it's values on asset changes? Please test to see what happens if ONLY the Education property is setup this way and the other new properties are excluded from the file.

It has not been done because I am not modding for C2C any more. I am just tidying up a few things before I move on.
Ok, that sucks but it's not the first time I've heard this from you. This is only one of a great many things that we really need from you. I thought you were working on the extra specialists? That would be REALLY a big milestone for us if that got sorted out and I fear without ya we'll never have it. If your major frustration is with the non-modularization of these new properties I'm sure we can make this work for you with relative ease.

As I mentioned to you and Joseph_II, I will be taking c2c v33.x and making C2C- Evolving Religions. It will take quite awhile as it will require some changes to the cultural system as well as the tech tree. Some of the things I will be adding there should move into c2C without problems (since I build in a modular format).

Restricted Movement (Ancient to Classical only) and the WLBO stuff for Indigenous Peoples (diplomacy through terrorism) are two things I will be having in the mod which should be easily moved into C2C.

The Bad Karma stuff I will probably do as a visiting modder to c2C. They are nice separate bits that can fit in any c2c mod. This includes the Pesky Barbarians by Platyping and the pirate and bandit stuff MrAzure is interested in.

I disagree with the Migrating Great people as it stands but would probably agree to a Migrating Great Person Heritage instead. I got no feedback on Bad People so assumed it was not interesting. The current implementation is to shallow even with Hydro's input so far.

The one thing I will need to work with Thunderbrd on is extending the great people. Adding the Great Hunter and Great Admiral and getting the correct GP heritage (specialists) to give exp to the correct units.
I want the Bad People BUT I was hoping to go about it in another way so we had a little conflict of vision there but I'm nowhere near acting on mine so no I figured I'd worry more about that when it got to that point. (IF ever)

I'm looking forward to working with you on the GP extensions... that'll be really cool.

What would conflict to such a degree that we can't figure out how to option/modularize things out? I'm thinking we may need very similar things when it comes to the changes you're talking about on the cultural and religious stuff so I'd love to talk to you in a great deal of depth about your plans and see if we can't find a way to harmonize them.

In the meantime, isn't the tweak to make the property tab not suck kinda a small fix for a man of your skills?
 
Ok, so while out my wife and I discussed some aspects of this property further.

Conclusions we came up with that you may agree or disagree with:
1) There SHOULD be some property diffusion from population.

2) However, Schooling buildings (of which we should fully define which ones play the most central roles in their eras) should have upgrade layers that are qualified on population levels despite having the same tech prereqs. As they go up in 'level', they represent more public spending on schools in addition to more school buildings in the city. This means that it should be completely possible to keep up on or even exceed the drain that excess population is adding so long as you make sure to upgrade your schooling buildings whenever possible. Otherwise you're allowing your education system to fall into disrepair.

3) Tech progress should be assumed to be the level of working knowledge that the society represents - education being how close to this cutting edge of understanding that the average citizen grasps. Therefore, buildings definitely should not be made to have prerequisites of particular education levels. However, it is perfectly rational that a society that has a lesser share of more educated individuals will not be able to make as good use of such buildings, even perhaps to the point that while the buildings are there, they are only there in token and are not providing much if any benefit - only upkeep drain perhaps.

I also believe that:
4) There are many buildings that would REDUCE education levels thus population should not be the only mechanism that eats up education levels. Those things that distract children in particular. Diseases would distract from education and crimes would distract from education. So while a high education may help to reduce crime and disease, a high crime or disease could drag down education.

5)While the school building upgrades could well account for additional spending (they would increase the maintenance costs as they go tremendously) there's another element here...

Perhaps we should work on getting new sliders that interact with properties.

Without involving AIAndy, the way I can see it working would be to first figure out how to add a new slider and I recall there being a tutorial on that and I believe I have an example of a mod that added one. This likely requires creating a new commerce entirely. However we don't need it to be a commerce. We make it irrelevant to calculate the commerce income itself but we then use the expression system based PropertyManipulator tags on buildings (like schools for example) that add an amount of the property rate (education for example) depending on the % the new slider is set to - not sure if that can be done with his expression mechanism but it might not be too great a stretch to set it up to. Thus it would make the buildings we want to work like this somewhat like the Theatre that increases :happy: as the culture slider is turned up.

This MAY be out of our technical expertise reach at the moment so instead, for now, I'd suggest increasing the maintenance on schooling buildings drastically with each upgrade layer.


Energy will need to work in a similar manner - more powerplants are needed as the population grows and you shouldn't have to build a second TYPE just to build a second plant.

BTW: I'm in discussions with AIAndy on PMs now about how to setup adjustable maximum and minimum property value capacities on cities and plots which will be necessary to make the Energy property work properly so hold off on that for a moment while I try to work that out with his help. He's got an interesting idea on how to go about that but a complex suggestion on how to make it work properly without a great deal of loss...

EDIT:
6) My wife brings up an excellent point that much education takes place OTJ (on the job) and thus a small amount of education should be added by any building that would help to 'teach' their trade skills and knowledges to trainees. This would largely impact craft buildings - a Forge, for example, would teach it's trainees a great deal about metallurgy and thus would qualify to add a simple +1 Education to the city.
 
Ok, a proposal is complete: And we have a new google doc for this!

Check it out H... lemme know what you think. Now... I presume that all of these are cumulative with the building that comes before it so once you're at the 3rd positive autobuilding you'd have the values of 1, 2 AND 3. It could be made not cumulative by making the max range end at the point the next one begins. In which case, the numbers in this proposal would be adjusted to suit - if you like the proposal anyhow.

A couple more things to consider:
*I did suggest earlier that crime and disease be pop based. While possible, it didn't have the right feel because it would both be too weak and too strong at differing stages of the game to go about it that way... decided the flat rate WAS better.

*I did NOT include building value adjustments. I'm not sure if I need to do any tags for that or not.


Oh, and we have a major problem I discovered with the revolution tags. It appears that the iRevIdxLocal, which presumably was intended to mean a change to the stability of just the city this building was built in, is being overridden on its value entirely by the added tag iRevolutionIndexModifier. It's description may or may not be true that it affects every city... I can't tell because I'd have to go into reading the python on that and ... yeah. All I can say is that the load sequence on those tags has the iRevolutionIndexModifier completely write over any value on iRevIdxLocal, even if iRevIdxLocal has a value and iRevolutionIndexModifier does not (means the 0 value default on iRevolutionIndexModifier replaces the value of iRevIdxLocal.) There are some buildings trying to use iRevIdxLocal and I suppose they should be changed over to iRevolutionIndexModifier for now. It's kinda a mess and since I'm not going in to read the python (yet) I can't say how we should really fix it - I'd like to have a local ONLY tag and I'm sure one of them was originally meant to be.
 
While I could comment on everything you said I will select just a few major points I think are important.

However, for these reasons prereqs off the property value of the city itself doesn't seem to make much sense, are a bit redundant, and give our players who must work with even more troublesome prerequisites in C2C than any other mod even more reason to complain. We want to add challenges, yes, but we don't want to make the mod a royal pain in the arse to play. At times, our prereq structure as intricate as it already is, already has.

I agree with you, but also still defend having a complex dependency system. We need to find a balance with it. However I think such requirements are good for the mod since it give the player a conflict in which they have the power to solve and when they do they can be rewarded.

In Sim City 4 there were a set of modders who made building dependency chains for it. I found it to be extremely rewarding which is why when I started to mod for Civ4 I wanted to do the same. However our system is a huge beast and it takes a skilled player to master them all.

This may frustrate new players who are use to vanilla civ4 or even civ5, however I think the challenge of it helps sets our mod apart and acknowledges that our players are smart and don't want to play dumbed down games.

As I have said before if you want to play a more simple game go play RoM/AND or even play civ5. I will not be offended. The challenge of such a complex of is not for everyone.

Speeding through the techs could, and I think should, be solved by adjusting the tech costs across the board. Make them cost more and you alleviate the problem. Taking away the research on those buildings entirely not only doesn't quite feel right and violates some standard player expectations in Civ, it also is a little bit of a breach of rationale. I can understand where you're coming from and I'm not against slashing their research values and by making them add to the property you're making them justify their costs a bit more. But I would advise strongly against taking away the BASE values entirely. Leave just a little green at least I'd think.

And if we have a problem with research going too fast (which I feel we somewhat do but when you think about it at the root, this is our disagreement with SGT Slick - he'd prefer build costs force a player to choose what to build carefully while I would prefer tech costs take longer so that more conflict and warfare may be supported within a given era without the tech race so easily overcoming warfare building attempts. The balance, as I see it, is quite simple: Build Costs vs Tech Costs. That's why we were trying to get this alternative Game Speed option setup so that it would support the players who want their challenge on the build side. If we can get it to work we can do another which puts the challenge on the tech side instead which I think from this conversation I can presume you and I would prefer

I think this is like any other part we have added to the game. When I added -gold to the game some people got mad since they never had to deal with that penalty before. Same with crime pests and disease. Education of course deal with the most coveted properties in the game, science and as such I could see why they are a bit pissed off. Buildings that once gave a ton of science now give only a little or even none.

It would not be hard to just put back the base science and have it produce both education and science. To have education be an additive effect rather than replacing. The question is should it? Should we take this opportunity to slow down the tech rate without increasing tech costs? Or should we return the base science to buildings that got an education property?

+1 on each step is insufficient and it should be population based so should operate on tag uses similar to SGTSlick's traits tags. Buildings can have these effects too. What I mean would be:
1st negative Education Level: +1 Crime / 3 population
2nd negative Education Level: +1 Crime / 2 population (not sure if this would be cumulative or not - if is cumulative then we'd need to simply add +1 Crime/3population at each stage)
3rd negative Education Level: +1 Crime / population

And the opposite achieves negative crime modifiers. Then similar for other propts.

But why would population matter? Seems like having the population reducing the education level is enough. Thus a straight system based on the education level would be enough.
Ok, rather than say a Healer's Hut must have 150 Education value to be built, use tags on the autobuildings that give the Healer's hut +1 Health at 150 then lower the +2 Health on the Healer's Hut (assuming that's what it has... dunno for sure) to a base of +1 instead so that the AI still knows its a health building. Then maybe give it a bonus +1 at 500 Education or something like that. We have building tags that modify other local buildings right?

So this means its an additive system rather than a whole sale unlocking system. I could see this maybe working without imbalacing things once the disease system is in place, but I am not so sure currently.
 
@Thunderbrd
Yeah, I won't add Energy Property until you or Hydro tell me too.
 
I agree with you, but also still defend having a complex dependency system. We need to find a balance with it. However I think such requirements are good for the mod since it give the player a conflict in which they have the power to solve and when they do they can be rewarded.

In Sim City 4 there were a set of modders who made building dependency chains for it. I found it to be extremely rewarding which is why when I started to mod for Civ4 I wanted to do the same. However our system is a huge beast and it takes a skilled player to master them all.

This may frustrate new players who are use to vanilla civ4 or even civ5, however I think the challenge of it helps sets our mod apart and acknowledges that our players are smart and don't want to play dumbed down games.

As I have said before if you want to play a more simple game go play RoM/AND or even play civ5. I will not be offended. The challenge of such a complex of is not for everyone.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not totally against complex prereq chains and wasn't really intending to attack them. I'm just saying that I think we've pretty much reached tolerance level on those and to make them much worse with the property might be too much.

Plus... I simply think there are more elegant ways of approaching making the property meaningful.

Did you have a moment to look over the proposal for the education autobuildings?



I think this is like any other part we have added to the game. When I added -gold to the game some people got mad since they never had to deal with that penalty before. Same with crime pests and disease. Education of course deal with the most coveted properties in the game, science and as such I could see why they are a bit pissed off. Buildings that once gave a ton of science now give only a little or even none.

It would not be hard to just put back the base science and have it produce both education and science. To have education be an additive effect rather than replacing. The question is should it? Should we take this opportunity to slow down the tech rate without increasing tech costs? Or should we return the base science to buildings that got an education property?
Understand I'm not against the replacement - I'm against inaccurate representation of the Real buildings we're trying to portray.

What this means is, for example, knowledge inheritance: great idea to make it NOT science and only education. Library, would offer both. Actual scientific research of all kinds does take place in libraries where the sharing of information between minds that have never met in-person takes place (pre-internet mostly ;) ) It also offers citizens access to self-education and supports the existing schools.

The difference in research and education modifiers must be clear logically. Research means progress on the cutting edge of societal knowledge towards a breakthrough. Education facilitates this perhaps but it means something a bit different, the propagation of already achieved societal knowledge throughout the population. Tends to be that only well educated people make significant breakthroughs but this is not ALWAYS the case either.

If we THINK of it in this light we should be able to decipher the difference between when and where to use one or the other.

My point on balance factors (adding to the tech costs) is a general one that we can always employ to re-achieve balance.



But why would population matter? Seems like having the population reducing the education level is enough. Thus a straight system based on the education level would be enough.
I did determine, if you'd see the last post I left, that it would be gameplay-wise better to not build the modifier on population.

The reason I was thinking it would matter is a moot point and difficult to explain anyhow.


So this means its an additive system rather than a whole sale unlocking system. I could see this maybe working without imbalacing things once the disease system is in place, but I am not so sure currently.
Would be far preferable to absolute prerequisitizing on buildings anyhow. I think, however, that the proposal I put forward certainly makes it possible to ignore this step unless we are taken with the desire to modify a building's effectiveness upon varying education levels.

Don't get stuck on the example... that's all it was, just a way to show you what I was trying to say (answering your question.) It's only one way to consider ways to make education more important.


In the proposal I've suggested to make education a double edged sword either way with a tendancy for positive to be worth more to the nation overall. Not to be ignored is the downsides of having a strong education level... at certain stages of a city's development a clever player may prefer a lower education for a while... I'm suggesting that the Dark Ages were made 'dark' purposefully as a governmental strategy as indeed it was. The constant warfare of the era made the citizens both unruly and a valued human resource commodity in terms of soldiers and to help rebuild from (again) all that constant warfare. Keeping them stupid was a great way for the bureaucrats to maintain effective control.
 
I disagree somewhat on this. There is the maintaining of the current level of technology/knowledge as well as new research. One of the reasons for things taking so long to get from fire to archery was because people had to reinvent it all the time as it was not being passed along. The inventor and their whole tribe dying before it could be passed along to others.

I a not against long building trains but the advisers need to be changed to strongly suggest buildings or improvements that provide a resource you don't have. I keep forgetting to have a butcher for example which truncates a whole line of resources and buildings.

The same is true for all the properties, they should be causing the advisers to advise that something needs to be done about ones that are going out of control.
 
I had an idea last night that might sounds a bit weird:

Have you considered Population as a Property? I don't mean the Pop of a City (like you need Pop 6 to build Ship Builder). I was talking about the Inhabitants that are shown when hover over the Pop in the city screen.
The reason I think it would be a good idea to make it this way is that available food and Population not go hand in hand as they do in Civ now. For example, compare Food per Pop in the USA and India. Or even Africa. Overpopulation (here: More People then you could feed) will be a major Problem in the future and it has been in the past as well.

Right now, it is too easy to avoid getting your cities too big: Just check the stagnate button.

Another advantage of this system would be easier implention of jobs and jobless. Every building needs some population and if you don't have enough, this would result in less efficiency of those buildings. If you go to the absolute limit (like 99% of Pop has to work) this could cause unhappyness due child labor. If you adopt civics that don't allow child labor or labor of the olds, you could only use a maximum of 50% of your population for example.
 
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