Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

Bold by me.

The authentication requirement does not require a constantly running DRM program. The Steam DRM could start when the game starts, do the authentication, and then shut down if the computer is offline and/or if the player requests it.
It does to be effective. Otherwise, if you jettison steam later, you'd be able to make copies of the steam-less version of the game, bypassing authentication.
 
You seriously can't see how the Steam DRM "could possibly enforce further DRM restrictions"? It's a DRM program - that's what is does is enforce DRM.

It is running while the game is on. If it finds banned content or mods that use existing content or DLC content the Steam DRM can prevent Civ5 from playing. This is exactly what Bello and others are concerned about and why the mod/DLC content questions keep getting asked.

If this concern is unfounded then all Greg had to do was make a simple statement to dispel our fears. As no such statement has been made, then the concern still exists.
Yes, Steam enforces DRM. It does this by keeping a record of what you have installed, and what what you are authorized to play. Except for VAC, it does not scan your games for anything. If it did this would fall under what other information valve collects via steam.
 
It does to be effective. Otherwise, if you jettison steam later, you'd be able to make copies of the steam-less version of the game, bypassing authentication.

I disagree. Once the DRM authentication is completed then continuing to run an active DRM program after that is only some form of monitoring/tracking/spying/scanning/copywrite protection activity. If the initial authentication is done correctly then keeping the program running after that point doesn't make it more effective at authentication.

This is exactly why there are all the mods/DLC overlap questions is because Steam DRM appears to be not just authentication, but because of the nature of the program staying on past the authentication stage leads to questions about if it is doing content scanning DRM and enforcement that we haven't been informed about.

Steam staying on may perhaps make the game harder for crackers to break, but it will be cracked regardless and a Steam-less version be available online anyway. The Steam features won't be there, but Civ plays just fine as a SP offline game with no need for Steam type add-ons.

I love the Civ series and would like there to be a Civ6 someday. I would never run a cracked copy, but I'm not everyone. I just want to know, just like Bello and many others do, if I can modify the existing content and legal DLC I paid for into game mods that I can play or will the Civ5 Steam DRM prohibit me from playing the game I paid for in the manner that I desire.

If Steam DRM prohibits mods that use existing content then Civ5 modding will be a huge and unwelcome step toward a more restrictive mod-playing environment.
 
I disagree. Once the DRM authentication is completed then continuing to run an active DRM program after that is only some form of monitoring/tracking/spying/scanning/copywrite protection activity. If the initial authentication is done correctly then keeping the program running after that point doesn't make it more effective at authentication.
But, since Steam provides functionality other than DRM, it stays on to support that functionality. The Steamworks API says this. Greg has said this. Greg has also said that Steam has nothing to do with mods. You can continue to disagree all you want, but that will not change the facts. The Steamworks API provides functionality that has been built into the Civ V engine. That functionality requires that steam be running to support that functionality. No Steam, game crash. There is no hidden agenda.
 
Greg has said that Steam has nothing to do with mods. Is it safe to assume that Steam will have something do with DLC? This then leads me to ask in what way will modding of DLC content be allowed/disallowed? My guess is that DLC will somehow be locked away from modders (e.g. via encryption) so the statement that "steam has nothing to do with mods" would be technically correct.
 
Yes, Steam enforces DRM. It does this by keeping a record of what you have installed, and what what you are authorized to play. Except for VAC, it does not scan your games for anything. If it did this would fall under what other information valve collects via steam.

Bold by me.

With all due respect I would like someone official (from 2K) to tell us that. How do you know what the Steam DRM scans for or what it doesn't? When I asked if the Steam DRM scanned mods for DLC content even 2K Greg said "I don't have any information on how mods will or will not interact with DLC at this time". If he doesn't know then on what basis do you claim to know? Are you somehow associated with Firaxis, 2K or Steam? Moderator Action: Don't accuse anyone here for working for one of these companies, this is not allowed. If you are simply making your best guess that's fine, but if so then you might start you statement with "My best guess is...".

Unlike many other players I don't worry if Steam scans my computer system or not. My gaming computer is a separate and dedicated system only for games and movies and internet browsing in general. We have an older computer that has all our financial and credit card info and links and that computer we use exculsively for online banking, bill paying and other "serious" type activity.

My concern is about being able to play the mods we made in the same way we could with Civ4. I keep hearing how great Civ5 will be for mods but also keep seeing the mods/DLC questions still go unanswered. Greg just said "We'll be discussing mods in detail in the coming months", but the game is now down to only 56 days to release. I can't help but feel his answer is a non-responsive blow off. The 2K PR reps have certainly seen this question before:

May 09, 2010:
If someone release a Mesopotamia map, how "similar" to the paid DLC must it be to be classed as "infringing copyright" and removed? That is an extremely grey area. Similarly, if I make WW2 with Stalin, and then 2K release Stalin as paid DLC, am I then in that grey zone and risk removal?




EDIT- Sorry Souron and The_J, I didn't mean that to sound like any kind of accusation of anything. It was intended as an inquiry as to if Souron worked in the field and therefor had insider knowledge that he was sharing with us. No offense intended.
 
Greg has said that Steam has nothing to do with mods. Is it safe to assume that Steam will have something do with DLC?

DLC (Down-Loadable Content) is a mod. Am I mistaken as to the agreed upon terminology somehow? An additional civ (or unit, or whatever) modifies your game. If that civ was purchased DLC then the Steam DRM program has "to do with it" the guarding of that content to prevent it from being used by players who did not pay for the right to do so and to prevent unauthorized redistribution of the mod. Thus, Steam DRM interacting with DLC mod content.


This then leads me to ask in what way will modding of DLC content be allowed/disallowed?

Thank you, that's exactly what myself (and others) have been asking. I don't want to mod and break the rules, but in order for that to happen the rules must be revealed first.


My guess is that DLC will somehow be locked away from modders (e.g. via encryption) so the statement that "steam has nothing to do with mods" would be technically correct.

That answer is still not even technically correct. The Steam DRM interacts with mods, locks them away, and decides who is authorized to use what mods and helps to protect them from unauthorized redistribution. Hardly "nothing to do with".
 
DLC (Down-Loadable Content) is a mod. Am I mistaken as to the agreed upon terminology somehow?
Most probably. I'm pretty sure that from the dev or publisher's point of view they will definitely make a distinction between mods and DLC. For starters, they will be selling DLC so there are obviously reasons/incentives for them to try and protect DLC.
An additional civ (or unit, or whatever) modifies your game.
I appreciate that is technically correct but then so does a computer virus have the potential to modify your game. We don't call viruses mods.

It's my belief that Firaxis/2K will handle DLC somehow separately from mods. I have my doubts that modders will even have access to the content in DLC. I have no idea how they'd do this, but I have been pretty consistent in saying that this matter is one that is causing great confusion for me. In my previous post I was merely trying to interpret Greg's statements in a way that makes sense with what is already known and what is likely to be possible/ not possible with modding.
If that civ was purchased DLC then the Steam DRM program has "to do with it" the guarding of that content to prevent it from being used by players who did not pay for the right to do so and to prevent unauthorized redistribution of the mod. Thus, Steam DRM interacting with DLC mod content.

What I've been implying is that I beleive official DLC (e.g. downloadable civs) will be in an encrypted format so that modders have no ability to modify them anyway, except perhaps to simply break it by trying to edit it.

I think it's obvious that Steam will have something to do with DLC, and so I think the question is being sidestepped a tad by Greg when he tells us "Steam will have nothing to do with mods".
That answer is still not even technically correct. The Steam DRM interacts with mods, locks them away, and decides who is authorized to use what mods and helps to protect them from unauthorized redistribution. Hardly "nothing to do with".

If one is happy to not classify DLC as mods, then it's perfectly reasonable to consider Greg's statements as being "technically correct". I am pretty sure not calling DLC mods is something that 2K is happy to do.

EDIT... By the way, I hope you see that apart from what we consider to be "mods", we are basically in agreement on everything else.
 
2k Greg will not be able to answer valid questions if people keep spamming the same questions that have already been answered.
So please stop this right now, you know who you are.

Will the Steam Application police mods that for example replicate DLC?

Mods are not handled by Steam in any way,

It doesn't take a genious to notice that this question has been answered, yet i've seen the same guy post the question several times demanding an answer, it has been given, STEAM WILL HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MODS, mods and DLC is a completely seperate issue, it may well be the case that mods that replicate DLC will not be allowed and will be removed from the mod browser by whomever moderates the mods if someone does indeed moderate the mods, this is pure speculation, but if this is true this will not be done by Steam because as it has alredy been clearly pointed out but I will state it just one more time to try to drum it into your head, STEAM WILL HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MODS.

This is completely incorrect. I can guarantee 100% that if that option is set to "do not update", then it will not update, regardless if you're online or not. :)

No, you are wrong, if you are in online mode, and attempt to play a game, that game will check for updates, update to the latest version, and then play. The "turn off automatic updates" option is so that the process isn't done till you want it too, Playing the game in OFFLINE mode is the only was to avoid updating to the latest version. So please don't repeat unecessary questions.

..............

If the Steam Servers are offline, we won't be able to play a legal version of Civ5, right?

This is a purely hypothetical situation, and the simple answer is maybe. Maybe Valve will discontinue the authentication process, (they have designed the "fail safe" so that they can allow customers to play even if Steam goes out of business, and its tested and it works), or maybe they won't (Legally they are not abliged to go out of thier way to give this to you, even though they went through the hassle of designing it).

You won't be able to get a "Yes!" for this answer, or a no for that matter, so any further mentioning of this would be pointless, but no doubt someone will moan about it.

.............

If I change to a new hard disk, or I change from Windows XP to Windows 7, or if I need to format
my hard disk:

Do I keep my Steam account, can I play the game?

My thanks in advance.

Well it seems that thier could be a couple questions in here.

"Will Steam remain on my hard drive If I delete everything on it with a reformat to re-install Windows",

Well obviosuly everything on the computer is deleted, so no. but I'm sure this is not what you meant to ask anyway. So onward to the real question.

"If I delete Steam off my PC (say via a re-format), will I be able to get it and my game back?",

Yes, you can re-download the Steam application at any time from thier website, Steam Website
Then on the newly downloaded Steam application, log in with your existing credentials you made already, (your username + password), then you can re-download any of your games in your library. Steam does not limit to a number of downloads/installs like some other DRM's, so you will be able to "get back" your games an unlimited number of times, happy gaming.
 
What I've been implying is that I beleive official DLC (e.g. downloadable civs) will be in an encrypted format so that modders have no ability to modify them anyway, except perhaps to simply break it by trying to edit it.

I hope you aren't correct but suspect you are. If we are unable to modify existing game content, like we could in Civ4, then that would explain why Greg would dodge away from answering the question or try hide behind the lame technicality that DLC content is somehow not a mod.

This news would be a huge blow to our ability to create mod content if all mods must be totally made from scratch. :backstab:


I think it's obvious that Steam will have something to do with DLC, and so I think the question is being sidestepped a tad by Greg when he tells us "Steam will have nothing to do with mods".

I mentioned "corporate-speak" in an earlier post. Greg should do well in his career as a corporate PR rep.


If one is happy to not classify DLC as mods, then it's perfectly reasonable to consider Greg's statements as being "technically correct". I am pretty sure not calling DLC mods is something that 2K is happy to do.

Civ5 itself looks like it may be a great game. Sadly, the corporate pricing greed and the half-truth answers and ignoring important questions (post #21) and the like just makes me want to be sick.
 
STEAM WILL HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MODS.

And I explained why that is a corporate half-truth.

If Steam has nothing to do with mods then can I purchase a bunch of Civ5 DLC game mods (on Steam of course) and pass them out to everyone? No? Well why not? What's stopping me you might ask? STEAM DRM! :lol::lol::lol::lol:



EDIT- 2K Greg in the Steamworks FAQ thread talking about the new "mod library", also know as the "mod hub" or "mod browser":
Yes, the mod library mentioned in that answer is referring to the "mod hub" or "mod browser" which has been mentioned by previews and in interviews, but the details have not yet been released. The mod hub doesn't have anything to do with CFC.
 
2k Greg will not be able to answer valid questions if people keep spamming the same questions that have already been answered.
So please stop this right now, you know who you are.

I must have missed the announcement of your promotion to forum moderator. Congratulations. :)

My discussion of the question was actually with a real forum moderator, so sorry if that offends you and I ignore your request to stop my on-topic conversation.

The original, still-unanswered question in its pure form is buried in another thread so here is the re-post in this "Official Civilization V Steamworks FAQ" thread where it belongs:

May 09, 2010:
If someone release a Mesopotamia map, how "similar" to the paid DLC must it be to be classed as "infringing copyright" and removed? That is an extremely grey area. Similarly, if I make WW2 with Stalin, and then 2K release Stalin as paid DLC, am I then in that grey zone and risk removal?
 
If Steam has nothing to do with mods then can I purchase a bunch of Civ5 DLC game mods (on Steam of course) and pass them out to everyone? No? Well why not? What's stopping me you might ask? STEAM DRM! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

DLC = content created by Firaxis, available for purchase through the Steam store.

Mods = content created by users, available for free through the mod library

If you create a mod that makes use of content that was made available through DLC, people who didnt purchase that DLC will not be able use the mod (the mod will not work).

It's pretty obvious tbh.
 
DLC = content created by Firaxis and available for purchase through the Steam store.

Mods = content created by users, available for free through the mod library

If you create a mod that makes use of content that was made available through DLC, people who didnt purchase that DLC will not be able use the mod (the mod will not work).

It's pretty obvious tbh.
That's not necessarily the case. It may be possible to include DLC resources as part of the mod package. From an implementation standpoint, you'd expect that to be defacto. From a licensing and copyright standpoint, of course that's a problem. But given how mods worked it civ 4, and how we can reasonable expect mods to work in civ 5, it's not at all clear how mods would work together with DLC.
 
When I say "it's obvious" I mean that it's the only logical conclusion after reading 2k greg statements on the subject.

Of course an official reply would be welcome, but I dont have much hope for that. The long-waited FAQ only answered a small part of the questions that were asked, and most of those were already known by the majority of us, while all the tricky questions have been avoided.
 
If you are in offline mode, technically there is nothing preventing you from using the same account on 2 machines at the same time, but keep in mind that it's against the eula.

Not only it would be clearly against the EULA, but I can easily think of a means to control this:
Just have the installation routine create an internal number based on your individual DVD or your login data to Steam.
Then check each time a mp functionality is called up, if the same two numbers appear. If so, terminate the game.
 
Not only it would be clearly against the EULA, but I can easily think of a means to control this:
Just have the installation routine create an internal number based on your individual DVD or your login data to Steam.
Then check each time a mp functionality is called up, if the same two numbers appear. If so, terminate the game.

Yes I was referring to single player game, I guess that multiplayer requires separate accounts even if you're in offline mode.
 
DLC = content created by Firaxis and available for purchase through the Steam store.

Mods = content created by users, available for free through the mod library

If you create a mod that makes use of content that was made available through DLC, people who didnt purchase that DLC will not be able use the mod (the mod will not work).

It's pretty obvious tbh.


Your definition of mod appears to not be the accepted definition (sorry to quote Wikipedia- Mod (computer gaming):

Mods are made by the general public or a developer...

They can include new items, weapons, characters, enemies, models, textures, levels, story lines, music, and game modes.



Why would you say only free content can qualify as a mod? Anything that modifies a game is a mod (modification). Can you cite that creation source restriction? What does the payment or non-payment have to do with the type of content? What if a free mod civ, unit, etc. is created and released and then is added to the paid DLC list? Is it then no longer a mod?

Wikipedia- Mod (computer gaming):
Due to the increasing popularity and quality of modding, some developers, notably Firaxis, have included fan-made mods in official releases of expansion packs.
 
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