Swapping great works is unfair?

So I'm not a multiplayer Civ player - I only play with the AI. But playing along I just realised that the swapping great work system is theoretically unfair if you exit the "AI playing" sphere.

Say you spent the last 10 turns for example building up your tourism theming bonus with the Louvre wonder, can't someone then just swap a great work you used in the Louvre and then your theming bonus just automatically plummets to 0? Isn't this a really unfair disadvantage in multiplayer? (I'm asking cause I haven't played multi before)

The only instance someone swapped great works with me in the AI was Poland and it was just one time out of all the games I've played, and it was just a piece of art that wasn't used in any wonder so I didn't lose anything.

Isn't it more balanced for you to exchange through the diplomacy screen or something, like say Byzantium has the perfect piece of art for you to complete a theming bonus, and you pay them in flat gold and whales? They get their payment and you get your great work. Or you could just trade your great work with their great work in the diplomacy screen, which you can either accept or decline, instead of the swap system where it's like "oh I want your perfect piece of work so I'll just give you a useless one of mine and you give me your perfect one and the advantage is only for me."

Or there could be like an auction screen and the highest gold bidder gets the great work for himself.

It just seems to be a broken system that could use a little spicing up.


Plus it's kind of unrealistic if you just swap and get a great work from someone you have invaded twice , denounced back and forth, nuked ,and made empty promises to who just wants to see your head on a stick.

You pick the works that you don't want you can't "steal", all great works that the AI selects THEY slect, not you, so in theory, you do the same, you don't just pick a work you want, they have to be willing to give it up.

AFAIK AIs offer only great works that they want to trade. That's why you often see medieval works available from most civs.

I have no idea why, but I always assumed they were just works excess to the needs of the AI- they are not putting up for swap some item giving a theming bonus. Perhaps they are works there is no slot for (this is probably wrong though).

never knew that thanks for clarifying

DreadMuffin said:

Great work swapping is a horribly unfair mechanic and yet most theming bonuses would become useless for anyone, but warmongers otherwise. An ai who doesn't have anywhere to create a theming bonus with a certain type of great work shouldn't offer it up for the wonder spamming tourist trapper. They are assisting another players victory for 0 gain.

Have any of you ever offered up a great work for trade? Of course you haven't, you only place a great work in the trading screen if you actually want to trade for one of the offered works. It's yet another case of the ai disregarding victory.

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That's a bit overwrought. Only a few wonder themes require trading. You can fill your museums with local art to your heart's content. Some of those wonders are national wonders, so every civ can build them and would benefit from trading.

Having said that, it'd be nice if the AI could ask for money in lieu of a swap. I'd love to see this swap meet approach ported over to trading luxury resources. Want to talk about unfair? How about the AI incestuously trading with other AI's, which is why 90% of the time when the player has a lux to trade, nobody has anything available to trade back.

The AI has traded great works with me, more than once. It surprised me, i went to check if they had robbed me out of some theming bonus, but no apparently they only take great works if they are at a theming bonus of +0.

The AI apparently trade amongst itself too, more than once i took a capital city to find it filled with foreign works of art. Or maybe the AI took it from enemy cities and moved them into his capital, i dunno.

Also no one uses the interface in MP

DreadMuffin said:

I may have put it a but on the edge, but I disagree with everyone benefiting from it. If you are not going for tourism yourself, you would prefer both you and your trade partner staying low in tourism. Tourism gives very little, if any, when you aren't trying to win through it.

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Well, for one, just getting to Exotic influence with other civs (doable with national wonders and museums) does a lot to ameliorate ideological pressure. For another, the themeing bonus boosts the culture output of great works as well as the tourism. It might be worth giving a rival a little more tourism if it means you can get your next sopol a little faster.

I do agree it's like the AIs are giving you stuff to win, basically. There need to be some other mechanic. (steal/copy great arts plsplsplspls)

Why swapp great works?

Canabrava said:

Why swapp great works?

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Buildings/Wonders that can hold multiple works get a 2x bonus if you have a proper set.

For example Museums you want either 2 Artifacts or 2 Great Arts that are both from the same Era and either both from your Civ or both from different, other civs. So you can swap existing works with the AI to get the set you want.

Being able to trade great works for money or luxuries like anything else would be interesting, although it could quickly add up into even more free tourism, since the 2 tourism you'd give away in the great work swap would be kept because you bought a great work instead.

My question regarding great works is, why can't great works of music be swapped?

Perhaps because there is no need to swap them? The theming bonuses that require music do not require different civ's music

Alzadar said:

Buildings/Wonders that can hold multiple works get a 2x bonus if you have a proper set.

For example Museums you want either 2 Artifacts or 2 Great Arts that are both from the same Era and either both from your Civ or both from different, other civs. So you can swap existing works with the AI to get the set you want.

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Edit.

Doviello said:

The AI has traded great works with me, more than once. It surprised me, i went to check if they had robbed me out of some theming bonus, but no apparently they only take great works if they are at a theming bonus of +0.

The AI apparently trade amongst itself too, more than once i took a capital city to find it filled with foreign works of art. Or maybe the AI took it from enemy cities and moved them into his capital, i dunno.

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Do you mean AI approaching you for trades in like a conversation screen?

DreadMuffin said:

I may have put it a but on the edge, but I disagree with everyone benefiting from it. If you are not going for tourism yourself, you would prefer both you and your trade partner staying low in tourism. Tourism gives very little, if any, when you aren't trying to win through it.

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Well, it helps you not be on the losting end of ideological warfare. You don't want other civ's to get "Popular" with your civ while you're still "Unknown" to them, and then wind up getting socked with unhappiness. Shaka doesn't need that any more than Pedro. To turn the question around, why shouldn't the AI program make every point of tourism count where it can? Min-maxing numbers is what a program is good at.

dexters said:

Do you mean AI approaching you for trades in like a conversation screen?

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No, i got one of those blue-circle notifications on the right lower corner saying a great work of mine was traded, hence my surprise. The great work of art that was taken away was a really cool looking one, and the one i got was the painting of an old man made of vegetables! Totally not worth it!