Temple of Artemis/Growth Rates

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superliminal

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I find myself always going for growth modifiers for going tall. I almost always attempt to get Temple of Artemis over Hanging Gardens, but it seems like people generally prefer HG. Am I misguided in doing this? Similarly, I tend to prioritize Fertility Rights for a Pantheon belief, unless there's a viable source of faith nearby.

Is there solid information on how these growth modifiers are calculated? I assume they're additive bonuses, but what does it actually increase? Does it increase the food gained from trade routes as well, for instance?
 
Hovering over your food production in the city screen answers many of your questions. I don't know of any multiplicatively added modifiers in Civ 5, pretty much everything is additive (including penalties vs bonuses).

As for ToA vs HG, one reason could definitely be that many people don't actually own the DLC to begin with, and thus might seem to favor HG. As for myself, I try to go for both but if I had to choose one of the two I'd go for HG. This is because ToA is not as useful early-to-mid game as HG is, and those turns are the difficult part in deity. Besides, when you go tradition you already have a couple multipliers (25% in your capital with completed tradition) which boosts HG a little more.


Edit:

Also, boosting one city by a huge chunk and letting it specialize in something is generally more rewarding than having a slight boost across your empire.
 
Hmm also if we are speaking about Tradicion (and we probaby are ;-) ) capital population pays for itself, while overpopulated satelites could sometimes be a problem.
 
Superstate said:
Hovering over your food production in the city screen answers many of your questions. I don't know of any multiplicatively added modifiers in Civ 5, pretty much everything is additive (including penalties vs bonuses).

As for ToA vs HG, one reason could definitely be that many people don't actually own the DLC to begin with, and thus might seem to favor HG. As for myself, I try to go for both but if I had to choose one of the two I'd go for HG. This is because ToA is not as useful early-to-mid game as HG is, and those turns are the difficult part in deity. Besides, when you go tradition you already have a couple multipliers (25% in your capital with completed tradition) which boosts HG a little more.


Edit:

Also, boosting one city by a huge chunk and letting it specialize in something is generally more rewarding than having a slight boost across your empire.
Click to expand...

-I forgot ToA was DLC. Bought it so long ago on Steam sale that I totally take it for granted.

-Looking at the food screen of a recent game, it's unclear when the modifiers are taken into account. I applied the modifier to both base food and total food and neither added up. Are different modifier applied at different points? This would make a big difference if ToA, for instance was applied to total food or base food.

-In a capital without freshwater, HG probably wins out from the free garden alone, but in other circumstances it seems like ToA might be better for mid-late game depending upon when the modifier is added.
 
Major redaction:

As it turns out, I'm wrong and been talking out of my behind. ToA is indeed a 10% global growth modifier, which makes it very strong from mid and forward.
 
Superstate said:
This is why people like HG (especially early game) :)
Click to expand...

Okay. I think I can follow now. In the city I was looking at, it was in a We Love the King Day, which appears to modify the total food as opposed to the other modifiers which affect the base food. (The other thing I didn't realize was that food from maritime cs appear to add to the terrain total.)

So at best, yeah, ToA adds 2 or 3 food late game, which make HG clearly superior. So it seems like the only time ToA would pay off would be in going wide. I will revise my strategy! Thanks for explaining it for me.
 
superliminal said:
In the city I was looking at, it was in a We Love the King Day, which appears to modify the total food as opposed to the other modifiers which affect the base food.
Click to expand...

Oh it does? I was not aware of it, very interesting. Thank you :goodjob:
 
Other than the fact that HG is effectively a hospital available from the get-go? Well there's the fact that the HG gives you a free garden, even if your city isn't next to a river, that in itself is a huge advantage.
 
superliminal said:
So at best, yeah, ToA adds 2 or 3 food late game, which make HG clearly superior. So it seems like the only time ToA would pay off would be in going wide. I will revise my strategy! Thanks for explaining it for me.
Click to expand...

I prefer Hanging Garden, but don't forget that food is only one aspect when you compare those wonders. Temple of Artemis 1) can be build sooner, 2) don't require Tradition, 3) give +15% Production when building ranged units, 4) give some help to all your cities, 5) grants Great Engineers points, in comparison with H.G which grants Great Merchant points; 6) and is cheaper.

In my opinion, Hanging Garden is cleary superior if my city isn't adjacent to a river. If I can build a Garden in that city, the choice isn't so "clear", especially if you are playing a Civ with a good ranged UU (Chinese, for example) or a Civ with a UB which give happiness (Egypt, for example) and help expansion.

Maybe you have to pay more attention to ressources your cities wants for a We love the King day when you play with ToA, to give a +35%. Then, consider Swords into Plowshares (15% faster Growth rate for city if not at war) as a belief, and you can reach 50% faster growth rate in all your cities with those element.

ToA invite you to focus in farms instead of mine/lumber/trading post when you can, and if you want to maximise the "food" aspect of this wonder.
 
nimzo28 said:
I prefer Hanging Garden, but don't forget that food is only one aspect when you compare those wonders. Temple of Artemis 1) can be build sooner, 2) don't require Tradition, 3) give +15% Production when building ranged units, 4) give some help to all your cities; 5) grants Great Engineers points, in comparison with H.G which grants Great Merchant points.

In my opinion, Hanging Garden is cleary superior if my city isn't adjacent to a river. If I can build a Garden in that city, the choice isn't so "clear", especially if you are playing a Civ with a good ranged UU (Chinese, for example) or a Civ with a UB that give happiness (Egypt, for example).

Maybe you have to pay more attention to ressources your cities wants for a We love the King day when you play with ToA, to give a +35%, and consider Swords into Plowshares (15% faster Growth rate for city if not at war) as a belief (you can reach 50% faster growth rate in all your cities with these element).

ToA invite you to focus in farms instead of mine/lumber/trading post when you can, and if you want to maximise the "food" aspect of this wonder.
Click to expand...

Does HG actually give any Great Person point? I don't recall getting any great merchants from HG and the wiki indicates no.

It seems to me, looking at the numbers we were discussing above, that if you were to go wide, ToA would be useful for quickly growing new cities, but for a 3 or 4 city empire (which you'd likely be picking tradition anyway) it doesn't really compare. All the modifiers are powerful together, but missing out on ToA wouldn't change your growth rate significantly for already developed cities.

I'm realizing now though, just how powerful We Love the King Days are given that they apparently modify your total food. This yields a significantly higher bonus than any of the other modifiers.
 
superliminal said:
Does HG actually give any Great Person point? I don't recall getting any great merchants from HG and the wiki indicates no.
Click to expand...

The Hanging Gardens used to give a Great Artist point before the culture mechanics were changed. The free garden is still very nice, though.
 
Superstate said:
Modifiers are not applied at different points. If they were applied at different points they would not be additive, but multiplicative. Instead, you take all your modifiers (including possible negative ones, if your empire is below 0 happiness you get a -75% growth modifier) and add them all together. In here goes Landed Elite, Temple of Artemis, Tradition finisher, and so on.

For example, imagine that you'd hover the tooltip over this city:

It has +10 food from terrain and 0 from buildings.
It has 3 population.
Your base food is then +10 - (3*2) = 4 base.
You have following bonuses:
+10% from Landed Elite (this is your capital, let's say)
+15% from Tradition finisher (very early finish, but this is just an example!)

base food * 1 + (all your modifiers added together)
4 * 1,25 = 5

In this example, the big number that you don't need to hover over to see would show that your capital is running a +5 food surplus.

If you had a ToA running as well, your modifier would become:

4 * 1,35 = 5,4 food surplus.


Edit:

And compare that to a HG instead of a ToA, which would bring you a

10 * 1,25 = 12,5 food surplus

This is why people like HG (especially early game) :)
Click to expand...

Actually, the ToA functions differently. Despite the description saying it grants +10% Growth, the ToA does not provide the Growth Bonus (Growth Bonuses are calculated after population). If you look at the XML, the ToA actually provides a +10% global food yield modifier. Which means the ToA adds +10% to your total raw food yield, not your total food after population is taken out. So the ToA provides more food than you give it credit for.

Meaning, in your example, the ToA would modify the "+10 food from terrain and 0 from buildings" to 11, not the "+10 - (3*2) = 4 base" to 4.4.
 
I like the base numbers. Things like Goddess of the Hunt, Hanging Gardens, +1 food on shrines and temples (forgot the name), etc.

The percentage modifiers are great for late-game when food costs get ridiculously high, but I'd rather take the early-game growth boost to get the cities up and running fast. If I need more pop. in the late-game, I will just expand/conquer.
 
turingmachine said:
Actually, the ToA functions differently. Despite the description saying it grants +10% Growth, the ToA does not provide the Growth Bonus (Growth Bonuses are calculated after population). If you look at the XML, the ToA actually provides a +10% global food yield modifier. Which means the ToA adds +10% to your total raw food yield, not your total food after population is taken out. So the ToA provides more food than you give it credit for.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct, I shall redact my previous comments. This makes ToA extremely appealing in many situations. Luckily enough I already go for ToA's in my games!
 
turingmachine said:
Actually, the ToA functions differently. Despite the description saying it grants +10% Growth, the ToA does not provide the Growth Bonus (Growth Bonuses are calculated after population). If you look at the XML, the ToA actually provides a +10% global food yield modifier. Which means the ToA adds +10% to your total raw food yield, not your total food after population is taken out. So the ToA provides more food than you give it credit for.

Meaning, in your example, the ToA would modify the "+10 food from terrain and 0 from buildings" to 11, not the "+10 - (3*2) = 4 base" to 4.4.
Click to expand...

You're correct. What I was mistaking for the We Love the King bonus in the city I was looking at was ToA+Floating Gardens. Apparently the Floating Gardens bonus works in the same way. In that case I revise my revised strategy and will continue pursuing ToA, which then becomes pretty lucrative in the late game. Even early on, it could outpace the HG. That also significantly affects my perception of the Aztec's UB as well. Thanks for the info!
 
In terms of growth, I tend to prefer The Temple of Artemis. The reason being that the temple gives you a bonus that will be relevant throughout the entire game, whereas The Hanging Gardens' bonus wears out after a certain number of citizens. In addition, stacked with the Tradition policies, and certain religious beliefs, you're going to have a quickly growing empire.

That being said, there are also areas where the gardens are better - getting a free garden in a non-river/lake city being one of them. All in all, I like it best when I get both.
 
I had hanging Gardens in my capital of Venice and I got up to 38 or something pop when the game ended...never been that high. I can only imagine if I had ToA too.
 
It's harder to get both on higher difficulties. But a cargo ship to the capital is usually a better boost to food than both anyway.

I still tend to get HG for the free garden/early growth boost. Even if the ToA provides a better boost over time, it is definitely the weaker of the two in the early periods, which is the crucial time you want it working for you. The bonus production is the main draw for me, but I don't find I produce enough archers to make enough use to recoup my lost hammers. Given that the ToA seems to be the more popular of the two with the AI, the HG is just the better all-round choice imo.
 
I'd try for Artemis if I was going for diplo/science win, and Hanging Gardens for cultural win. The free garden is pretty useful, considering there's never really a good time to build it for culture victories (usually you have something else a priority.)
 
I love the Temple of Artemis. The usual problem is that the AI will beat you to it.
 
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