BTS – A guide for higher difficulties for standard speed and maps (emperor+)

@ Dirk:

I joind the open game "clash of deities" and just have reached the crossroads at lib between steel and rifling. Maybe I find the time to try your path out there:

clash of deities

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@ All:

Those of you who asked for a second demo game, just klick the same link:

clash of deities

Thanks a million for this guide.......I finally had my first" random map , leader , first map you get" conquest win on immortal and this guide was invaluable.......drawing Hammurabai did not hurt either

@ cronullasharks:

Nice to know that it worked for you

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@ everybody:

There is currently an Open Deity Game running in succession games... ...lots of great players are around and the documentation of the various strats used is pretty detailed... ...worth having a look I think, it´s here

One of the things I've always feared doing is building the great library in the capital. It almost seems a waste, but really it's the only city that's developed enough to build it before someone else does. Same with settling 8 cities asap, even in weaker spots. I'm just not comfortable with slamming cities in weak places for short-term gains unless it's obviously necessary.

I also totally agree with researching archery rather than relying on copper or horses on deity. Again, sucks but necessary.

Here's my question though: how do you know when it's worth it to stick to getting the 4-5 GS's for liberalism (the liberalism tech itself can be lightbulbed in BTS, yey!)? On deity, I could either pull off a brutal rush, and capture an AI's capital early, or I could stick to my liberalism plan. But I CANNOT do both. Question is, how good does the AI capital have to be before I do it? Note that I'm talking about 5-6 units attacking that capital before 1000BC.

@ sylvanllewelyn:

I´m not sure if I understood your question right...

To pull of a rush on deity, you need copper AND you need a deity capital really close. But due to the fact, that the AI starts with a second settler and usually has another 1-2 cities up and running before you can get out your first settler, the AI capitals on deity usually don´t boder you directly, only his satelite cities, therefore making a rush really difficult... ...you need to capture at least another city to reach the capital and therefore I would guess you need more like 10 axes or so to do so

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The deity open game we are just playing prooves this:

Sal started really close to us (like only 10 tiles away), still only 1 player out of 18 managed to build a city in a way it has a direct border with his capital...

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So I usually would try to get my 6+ cities up and running and wouldn´t bother hoping on a rush (chances are to small... ...in my opinion...)

Snaaty said:

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I started to build the Taj Mahal and tried to get a GE only after I had all GS I needed (got Nationalism from Lib) AND the GM to upgrade all my troops

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I don't get this reference. How does a GM upgrade units? Or do you mean indirectly using a Trade Mission?

If so, I wonder whether TMs are such a great use of a GP (before you have found out where the other end of the universe is and can get 2500+G). Maybe not even then; 2500G = lots of turns at 100% science.

At 20G + 3G/1H, I usually find it cheaper to build new units rather than upgrade (except a few vets). Old units = city happiness, or, if not needed even for that, gift to an AI just to increase his maintenance bill. I grant that I don't know how AI maint. works, so I don't know if this has impact.

Caveat: I have only played 2 games at Emp. so far and did not have much trouble with either. In both I relied heavily on the Woodsman II exploit at the start.

@ck07: I am sure Snaaty meant the trade mission in his statement - to get enough money for mass upgrading without compromising research.

Concerning building new units vs. upgrading: on deity it is all about timing and speed. If you can build macemen beforehand (especially with CR II which is not possible for Rifles) and then mass-upgrade asap, after you get rifling online you will have a considerable army much earlier than if you start building rifles only after you get rifling - the first approach would give you a decent chance to crush your neighboring AI. If you start building units only after you have researched rifling that would give the AI a lot of time to get to rifling as well (and the AI can be rather quick on deity).

Indeed, the opportunity window for rushes such as Snaaty describes here often ranges from only 10 to 20 turns. So if the the opponent is 10 turns from rifles but you hit him then he can still make it to Rifling but he'll have lost some 3-4 cities already and can't really recover. If you wait these 10 turns then attack with a somewhat bigger stack, you'll take the first city but subsequently the AI will whip rifles like mad and your invasion will probably stall. And the war has to be fast so you can use the conquered land for space.

I'm an old Civ gamer (pretty much Emporer Civ 3), but have only had Civ 4 for a month (got Gold and BTS). This has got a lot more stuff in it than Civ 3 by a long ways. I've gotten up to speed enough to 'win' always at Nobel and was working at Prince to refine my learning when I read this thread. I decided to give it a try and started a Monarch level game last night. I am playing standard size and speed, continents, random leader/civ (so I can continue to learn more about the chacteristics).

Got leader whose capital is URUK with characteristics Financial and Charismatic. Following the script I did get the Taj and have most of techs for rifling. However, I didn't get the Taj until around 1300 and I've been at 7 in military because I can't pump units fast enough. Eventually got Toko on my ass but I beat him off.

I'm trying to figure out why I've been slow in the plan. I did get a difficult start, with less than a cities distance between my capital and Paris, so several of my front line cities have tiles scammed from them. My second four cities came with lots of tundra. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I got wrong to be behind schedule?

@ dorkynorky:

The higher the level, the faster the tech-speed, because the AI´s research faster the higher the level and with the lightbulbing approach I described here you then can trade more

What is important is NOT the absolute techspeed (what you have researched in what year), but the RELATIVE techspeed (your techs compared to the techs of the AI at a certain year), so IF you manage to pull off a rifles rush while your opponents haven´t researched rifles your "in plan"

Concerning Toku:
There are some leaders that are simply a pain in the a... to start next with, sometimes they attack, no matter what you do. What often works is bribing these aggressive idiots to attack somebody else, because they usually fall back in tech from 1 AD on.

The fact, that you more or less managed to pull this off already at the first try a level higher then your usual play (and with crappy land) only prooves, that you are on the right track

I found this article Thursday and decided to do a Noble test run so I could get all the moving parts arranged correctly... good thing I did, as I will describe below...

I started a game as Ghandi for Spi/Phil and use cephalo's PerfectWorld script to generate maps. I wound up drawing a coastal city with a Grass Cow, Crab and 3 Plains Stone in the BFC! My first thought was how this would suck for trying to run a lot of specialists, then I started running production numbers and was blown away by how much it could produce... at a city size of 5, I finished the Pyramids in 22 turns, no chopping. Of course, I also built Stonehenge as well... since it was so cheap...

Thus I created a problem... Delhi's GP gene-pool was now polluted with Prophets and Engineers... I tell myself no big deal, as I'm planning all the fun I'll have with early Representation / Police State... I routinely play Ghandi in OCC games and make up for early polluted gene pools with sheer numbers of Caste Scientists... however, in all the excitement I forgot one thing... I don't have a big food surplus in this city... I almost always design a OCC capital with massive food surpluses.

I was first to Literature of course and built the GL with no problem... I dutifully added two more scientists to the GL freebies and watched my Scientist GP odds go to 70% chance for popping a GS. Life is good (so I think...)

First GP after the Great Library was an Engineer... ok bad luck... I can't stand the thought of burning a GE for a golden age, so I put him to sleep and let it roll again... same formula... 20 turns later, another GE... then another... that's now 3 straight GEs sleeping in my capital and I'm starting to second guess myself... that's quite a few hammers and beakers I'm throwing away and my GS odds are still at 70%... I'll just settle these GEs now and perhaps Mr RNG will be more kind the next time around (I had been popping those 3 GEs at a 19% chance)... next I get that 9% Great Priest... ... I had already used my Stonehenge priest to found Christianity, so I built the shrine (thankfully not in Delhi)...

In 970 AD, I got my first Great Scientist... of course, he went to an Academy (still thinking optimistically, of course )

At this point, I teched manually to Paper and built University of Sankore for more GS GPPs... By 1200 AD, I was still showing almost 60% chance of a GS pop... short-story, it's now 1700AD and I never got another GS... I had to manually tech the whole Liberalism path... I now have Rifling before anyone else has Replaceable Parts, but the bad news is that Joao II and Zara have Military Science (for Grenadiers)... my first target is Darius, and he is still doesn't have the military techs... so I think I'm ok... as I type this, I'm preparing to revolt into Nationalism Liberalism and unleash the horde on him.

So my lesson learned... if I'm playing this strategy... no matter how good production in the capital is, resist the temptation to pollute the gene pool with non-scientists...

To Snaaty: Thanks for the great walk-through... I learned a lot about drafting rifles...

IMO, the grenade/cannon varient is quite viable on maps where you have a few heads to roll. You give up the drafting, yes, but the maces still upgrade, and you have CANNONS, which do get city raider, and need no special upgrades to attain it. Grens/cannons are pretty solid with counter promos all the way until infantry (or blimps), which gives you a pretty big window if there's enemies nearby.

Dirty trick: Take a city, leave a couple CG grenades (or rifles) in there. Let the AI take it back with its occasionally massive stack. Then, use siege (cannons are great for this, but trebs will suffice) to massively weaken the whole damned thing and slaughter it. Fast capitulations, yes!

Snaaty's REX is strong as hell. Thanks, Snaaty. I use this in most of my games (admittedly, since I'm on monarch I get away with no archers when playing aggressive, as cover warriors on hills/forest/plains have the odds on barb archers...hell they technically have the odds on archers just fortified in the woods).

Snaaty, all:

3rd game on Emperor, first try to follow Snaaty's concept. Epic Speed (seems easier to micromanage), Standard size, Continents, Darius.

Started well in most ways: capital had plains/cow, corn (NI), horses, gems. and, it turned out, Iron. Not ideal from a food point of view but otherwise awesome.

Bronze city with 4 flood plains.

Marble and stone.

Started on the small continent with only Hammurabi and Brennus (bad for trade), but very nice that I once a Isettleed forward I had half the continent behind me.

I've been slower than Snaaty's sample. Having both M and S, I detoured to build GP (for Rep), Parth, Sankore, Apostolic Palace (I had a GE at the right time and I didn't want one of them building it - we're all Christian, started by H), and Hagia Sophia (a clear luxury; did it for the GE points).

It's 1130 AD and, yes, I'm detouring again. 2 turns ago I got a GP and figured that LB Divine Right and building SM would pay off. Cost is 17 turns of research (-10 LB - 2 done = 5 to go) and 12 of production; alternate production use would be a Market plus a Maceman or a Spy. Net cost in getting to Rifling will be < 7 turns but likely > 0.

Have 8 cities, one more than wanted. Had to take a barb in my rear to stop H doing it. Kept it because it had pop. 6, a pigpen, a hamlet, and a cottage.

Cottaging OK. None in my cap or Bronze city, 7 in my next three (6 at hamlet or village), (almost) no place to put more. Working on the new cities (luckily one will have 5 dye when it has enough pop).

Just overtook my opponents in tech. 60% science aftweer centuries of 30%-50%. 5 scientists because I completed the libraries quest.

NO meaningful idea what is happening on the other continent; among the 4 they rank 1-3 for culture (mostly from founding all the early religions, I think), but I'm finally #1 in land and pop. The other continent has all the wonders I don't except Zeus (Hammurabi).

Kept my mil up just enough. H attacked B and lost one (unimportant) city for his effort. B has built a huge stack there (borders me too). Sort of hoping he'll attack me so I can burn some old units to get exp. for newer ones. Need more cats. But "his hands are not full" yet.

No chance for a Maceman war. Not against H because of Zeus; "we won't fight our brothers in the faith" is going to be bad enough even against B.
B outmuscles me. More Maces and cats, with more promotions. Lots of HAs to my none. I have mainly axes and immortals, with c. 2 each swords, maces, longbows, and cats. Only 2 units with experience for CR II, plus a WM III warrior who makes a nice healer.

Have a GS in hand for Education.

Have Snaaty's recommended techs through Phil, plus Drama, Music (a Cathedral in the Bronze city will, I think, steal H's wine; partly built but I've switched to maces for now), and Theology.

Also, while you can get to Lib. and Nationalism w/out Machinery, my target is now Rifling. So I have M and 2 turns on Guilds (suspended for DR).

Questions:

1. Yes, I know I have detoured too much; they all seemed to make sense at the time. I have my own sense of which were mistakes, but would welcome views.


2. Should I go ed, lib, nat before guilds, banks, and RP? Buys a Golden Age and the ability to draft Macemen. Doesn't feel like enough.

3. I have no good draft city, nor will I. None of my cities can generate food surpluses bigger than 5; none of the older cities can exceed 2 any more. Do I skip Nationhood entirely, or settle for what little I can get?

4. Do I start converting mines to WMs? Would buy 7 food + 7C across my five older cities for 14H; goes to 21 C when I get RP.

5. Brennus is researching Optics. I don't have Compass. Could follow to try to get trade with the other continent and/or a TM, but would lose pace toward Rifling. ?

6. Do I burn a turn now to switch to Vassalage so that my mil. city (the bronze) can build 5 EP Macemen? Begs question of where I will get $ for upgrades if I don't do a TM.

Thanks in advance.

Snaaty,

One poster in this forum mentioned Pacifism. Is that part of how you get the GSs you need? If so, how do you get the $? I could barely stay above water.

@ ck07:

Quite some questions

Since I want to write and post an update for my DD story and want additionally to look and comment the deity SG save im playing in tonight, just post a save here and I will also look at it tonight and give some answers, thoughts... ...yumyum... ...marble and stone

Snaaty said:

@ ck07:

Quite some questions

Since I want to write and post an update for my DD story and want additionally to look and comment the deity SG save im playing in tonight, just post a save here and I will also look at it tonight and give some answers, thoughts... ...yumyum... ...marble and stone

Click to expand...

Thanks.

Notes:

1. Bad memory: the date is AD 1030.
2. I've never whipped in this game; concentrated on building to happy caps.
3. GPs: GS=academy; GS=Philosophy; GS=Paper (I think); GE=AP; GP=DR. Holding one GS for Education. I realize that this leaves one unaccounted for; maybe GA=Music. Can't remember for sure.
4. When/if ready for Brennus, I don't expect war weariness to allow total conquest; goal will be capitulation. But he has 2 low-value cities in front whose garrisons I will have to beat down but which I don't want to own. Do I capture for $ and then raze, or leave alive? Do you know what factors affect willingness to capitulate?

Thanks again.

Just looked at your save...

So here are my comments:

Go edu. right now, unis+ OxfordUni will double your research, then back to the stuff you are researching right now... ...I would even whip the unis to get them out faster, OxfordUni is brutal

There is an unclaimed spot left to settle (desert/coast, 22off the small river). I would settle it immediately, the more cities the better.

Gordium is the perfect draft city: 2xfood, lots of grassland+river, enough production for building the Globe in time Just farm everything, chop the forest to speed the Globe and use the governor (food button) when you start to draft

I never ever build a single windmill... ...never... ...ever... (but that´s just me). If your lacking food, found Sushi...

You need compas anyways to bulb Lib... ...every trade you do BEFORE meeting the other conti is good, because it doesn´t count to the WFYABTA with the "new" conti.

Using Theo is better for getting the 5XP...

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Overal judgment:

Your research is strong, 250 beakers are. You have a good mixture of cottages and farms. Your are in a strong position and should be able to win this

Some comments:
Half of your research is generated in your capital. Uni+OxfordUni will give you another 150 beakers... ...this always should be planned and done early
Using the whip is better then building manually and working mines:
Working only farms and cottages generates MORE science and whipping buildings gives you MORE production (just don´t go completely crazy with the whip). Stagnating cities at happy cap is usually not good.
You work some uniprooved tiles/forests:
Build some workers more. ONLY work farms and cottages... ...more commerce

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By doing the above you can generate around 600 beakers (including Oxford). You would be able to win this even without a war, your position is that strong.

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Pacifism:
Pacifism is a MUST in my opinion. Double speed of GP´s is incredible, helps bulbing and teching and everything. By using the whip instead of working mines and working only farms and cottages (=overall MORE cottages), you end up with the same research and money

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Concerning your last question:
There are no "bad" cities... ...there are only cities pre Suhi and Mining Inc, waiting for there time to come. But still, if you dont want to have them, capture them and later gift them back after you have vassalized your enemy (makes them happy and allows better relations with them)
Most important factors for capitulation are cities lost/captured and unit-kill-ratio

Snaaty said:

Just looked at your save...

So here are my comments:

Go edu. right now, unis+ OxfordUni will double your research, then back to the stuff you are researching right now... ...I would even whip the unis to get them out faster, OxfordUni is brutal

There is an unclaimed spot left to settle (desert/coast, 22off the small river). I would settle it immediately, the more cities the better.

Click to expand...

Snaaty,

I've been squeamish about this for fear of pushing myself back to 50% research. But if I bring more dye online fast enough ....

Gordium is the perfect draft city: 2xfood, lots of grassland+river, enough production for building the Globe in time Just farm everything, chop the forest to speed the Globe and use the governor (food button) when you start to draft.

Click to expand...

I've been squeamish about this too because one of the farms is the only thing keeping the Ivory/Marble city at +2 food instead of +1. You're right, though, because I can delay switching that farm for 25 turns at least.

I never ever build a single windmill... ...never... ...ever... (but that´s just me). If your lacking food, found Sushi...

Click to expand...

Even with Financial? Even on a river? Maybe we have found something you could use ....

You need compas anyways to bulb Lib... ...every trade you do BEFORE meeting the other conti is good, because it doesn´t count to the WFYABTA with the "new" conti.

Click to expand...

WFYABTA?

Using Theo is better for getting the 5XP...

Click to expand...

<Stupid reply removed -- somehow I was thinking that Vas was a Labor, not a Legal.> So I think I'll live with 3 EP until the univs are built. Don't want to switch between Org Reg and Theo twice if not during GAs.

Overall judgment:

Your research is strong, 250 beakers are. You have a good mixture of cottages and farms. Your are in a strong position and should be able to win this

Some comments:
Half of your research is generated in your capital. Uni+OxfordUni will give you another 150 beakers... ...this always should be planned and done early
Using the whip is better then building manually and working mines:
Working only farms and cottages generates MORE science and whipping buildings gives you MORE production (just don´t go completely crazy with the whip). Stagnating cities at happy cap is usually not good.
You work some uniprooved tiles/forests:
Build some workers more. ONLY work farms and cottages... ...more commerce

...

By doing the above you can generate around 600 beakers (including Oxford). You would be able to win this even without a war, your position is that strong.

...

Pacifism:
Pacifism is a MUST in my opinion. Double speed of GP´s is incredible, helps bulbing and teching and everything. By using the whip instead of working mines and working only farms and cottages (=overall MORE cottages), you end up with the same research and money

...

Concerning your last question:
There are no "bad" cities... ...there are only cities pre Suhi and Mining Inc, waiting for there time to come. But still, if you dont want to have them, capture them and later gift them back after you have vassalized your enemy (makes them happy and allows better relations with them)
Most important factors for capitulation are cities lost/captured and unit-kill-ratio

Click to expand...

I thought you can't give cities to a vassal. Or maybe that was Warlords.

The main message, as I get you, is that I should have done plenty of whipping earlier instead of mines. I normally do whip a fair bit, not as much as some.

You didn't criticize my "digressions" except indirectly in that whipping wonders is not often cost-effective.

I agree that I'm likely to win from here, but if you can get to positions like this many turns sooner then I can learn to also, and maybe eventually move up one more level ....

T 1.0E6.

ck07 said:

I thought you can't give cities to a vassal. Or maybe that was Warlords.

Click to expand...

You can't gift them just any city, but you can liberate the cities you took while you were invading them.

What map settings would be best to learn and use this strategy?