Barbarian trait very mini mod

Mesix said:
There should be a diplo penalty for barbarians and the two barbarian allied civs against the civ that has Orthus's Axe.
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there's no point changing the barbarian diplo penalty, as it is permanently set to -100 for all civs.

The clan of embers doesn't hail Orthus as a hero, but rather as a loose cannon who is impossible to control. I'm not sure they'd really care that much if he died, or where his axe went (except to get it back and use it for themselves of course!).
 
Some in the clan probably like Orthus, but their Hero Rantine and Orthus definitely don't get along.
 
Here's an idea I had for barbarians and the barbarian trait that, although perhaps a bit difficult to implement, would address several of the problems.

Namely, it would address the problems with not being able to declare war on the barbarians when you want to sometimes, add a useful mechanism for tracking whether the barbarians are upset with a Barbarian trait leader, and make the Barbarian trait leaders more powerful and better able to take advantage of barbarians.

Solution:
Add the barbarians to the civilization list (ie the scores) as a contactable civlization, although any civilization that is at war with the barbarians should not be able to conduct diplomacy (ie 'Refuses to talk to you!') Barbarian trait leaders should be able to conduct limited diplomacy with the barbarians, gifting gold, units, resources, and technology, but not receiving anything in return. The diplomacy modifier between the barbarians and the Barbarian trait leader is then used to determine when war is declared, and it is modified by gifts, mutual wars, alignment, destroying the world, and other appropriate modifiers. In addition, Barbarian trait leaders can recommend what cities the barbarians attack. You might also consider allowing trade routes with barbarian cities, which will be rare except when the cities are connected along coasts. Also, it might be too powerful, but I would also consider allowing barbarians to make use of techs that are gifted to them, if only in cities (but not in spawns until they have legitimate access to those units). Also, since the barbarians would be listed on the score list, you could easily declare war on them either through the diplomacy screens or by alt-clicking.
 
I like that idea, but then again I did propose it myself a few months ago.

I'm not really sure you need to limit the trades to being one way. The civs should be able to demand things of each other, hurting their diplomatic relations in the process. I don't see a need for any separate determining factor for war with the barbs, sine they would probably eventually get to the point where they don't like you very muhc anyway. For one thing, they would probably ask you to declare war on their enemies, i.e., all other civs, and your refusal would aggravate them (or likely lead to your destrction at the hads of the more civilized nations)

I also think that the barb leader should be Orthus (At least use his pic instead of Sid Mier's animation, if you don't actually change the name), and that the barbs should have some traits (Aggressive, Charismatic, Raiders) which they lose at his death. (I actually already added these traits and the loss mechanism, plus gave them Arcane/Magic Resistant/Summoner until Barbatos is defeated)

Although I'd like to be able to trade with the barbarian state, I see one problem with this: you can only trade with civs when you have a trade route to their capital city, and the barbs don't have a capital.

Barb trait leaders and the barbarian state should also be able to trade (or at least liberate) cities to one another, and to demand that their cities be liberated.
 
I've been playing around with the idea of making barbs contactable as you two have suggested. It's very easy to make barbs appear in the scores area- simply make them 'ai playable' and then assign an AI slot to them. This allows contact and diplomacy etc.

However unfortunately, the ease stops there. All of the barb spawn chances, events, auto-war and animals are tied into the barbarians as a 'non' civilisation, and I have no idea if that's even possible to change. In effect, if you make the barbs contactable, they become just the same as any other civ (do not spawn, start at peace etc. They also have a nifty sid mier face)

I think this has mainly got to do with the vanilla barbarian coding, which is hardcoded into the SDK. While i'm sure it's possible to change this with enough hard work, it's outside the scope of my abilities.
 
I've noticed the same kind of thing when playing as the barbarian state (requires minor xml changes. Also need to be sure that you assign them some staring units, or else you lose as soon as you start!). Also, there is another barbarian state in the game, which behaves exactly like it normally does, and is at war with you. This is particularly annoying, sine you cannot tell your units or cities apart from theirs (unless you try selecting them), and your cultural boarders al run together.

I'm thinking we may be limited to handling all diplomacy with the Barbarian State through random events.
 
In a Warlords Senario, yes. I think the probelms were there too, but a "no barbs" option was set so the hardcoded barbs didn't show up too.
 
Sarisin said:
Weren't the barbarians a playable civ in either Warlords or BtS?
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In warlords, yes, but you weren't actually playing as the barbarians- just a unique race with the barbarian flags and colours, with locked war and no barbs. If you give yourself some free units at the start it's possible to play as the barbs in ffh- but as I mentioned you then act as a normal civ and do not gain access to spawns/events such as orthrus etc.
 
MagisterCultuum said:
I like that idea, but then again I did propose it myself a few months ago.
Click to expand...

Yes. I'm promoting this idea, too.

I'm not really sure you need to limit the trades to being one way.
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The idea is that the barbarians are not sufficiently organized to trade their own technology/resources, but they could be given as much.

I don't see a need for any separate determining factor for war with the barbs, sine they would probably eventually get to the point where they don't like you very muhc anyway. For one thing, they would probably ask you to declare war on their enemies, i.e., all other civs, and your refusal would aggravate them (or likely lead to your destrction at the hads of the more civilized nations)
Click to expand...

The barbarians should ask you to declare war on their enemies, and your refusal should upset them. Either you join them in war (and gain diplomatic bonuses for doing so), placate them with other gifts (effectively funding their war against the other civilizations), or eventually are at war with the barbarians.

There is a tradeoff here: if you keep the barbarians happy, you have an enormous and widespread ally that you can direct via diplomacy to focus on your enemies (i.e. 'You should attack Cevedes.', etc.), but if you prove yourself to be as civilized as the rest of them, you'll have a new enemy.

I had in mind a net -5 to -10 as the breaking point for the barbarians declaring war on you, perhaps scaling according to map size, game speed, difficulty, and/or various game option (raging barbarians, etc.), and perhaps being probabilistic each turn, thus allowing you an opportunity to placate them after a refusal.

Although I'd like to be able to trade with the barbarian state, I see one problem with this: you can only trade with civs when you have a trade route to their capital city, and the barbs don't have a capital.
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That would need a new mechanic, but I think that trade routes would be one of the less significant aspects of the new barbarians, and it is probably the hardest aspect to justify. (Are barbarians sufficiently civil to engage in bilateral trade? Demanding and receiving gifts is one thing.)

Barb trait leaders and the barbarian state should also be able to trade (or at least liberate) cities to one another, and to demand that their cities be liberated.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I forgot to mention that.

MagisterCultuum said:
I'm thinking we may be limited to handling all diplomacy with the Barbarian State through random events.
Click to expand...

That would greatly reduce our options. Perhaps Kael and co. will be sufficiently interested in this idea to implement. I certainly hope they are looking for ways to improve the barbarian civs performace.
 
unfortunately it's being a right pain just trying to stop the AI declaring war on the barbs at the moment- diplomacy options are in the distant future. They simply won't listen to NO_WARPLAN and continue to declare war regardless :(.


I'll keep trying, but it looks like it won't be as easy as telling them not to. Problem is I don't really understand HOW you declare war against the barbs- it's just not as simple as it is with a normal civ.

On the plus side, in all my games both charadon and the CoE have been doing exceptionally well. Charadon especially is managing to do what he's designed to do: be an utter terror in early game. Playing as balseraphs I pretty much only managed to survive by currying his favour ;). As it should be however, later on he began to lose out in the tech race and I managed to rush a tower victory via slaves while holding off his IMMENSE force of champions/catapults/chariots using hemah and summoners. Sadly the AI isn't intelligent enough to attack from several fronts, or I would've had a much harder time. Instead it just rushes straight into twincasted maelstrom followed by spellstaff --> twincasted meteors =)
 
OK, Blakmane, I'm 400 turns into my Epic game with your modmod and I have had some rather surprising things happen...most not expected.

First, for a change, I tried to play Cassiel, but all the other game settings were the same as for the 5 previous games of .30 I played (except one was Marathon instead of Epic): Monarch, Huge Fantasy Realm map with 9 ai civs, Raging Barbs, AggAI, Wildlands, Barbarian Lands.

1. I ended up with Jonas AND Charadon in the game and this has really created problems for me that I did not expect! I know you said you were still looking for a way to have ai civs with the Barbarian trait not declare war early. Well, incredibly in this game I am up to turn 400 and BOTH Jonas and Charadon are still at peace with the barbs!

2. This peace has created some difficulty for me. Two ai civs went down, leaving 5 civs that the barbs can pick on. This leads me to another thing I never saw before. I have Jonas on my NW border and Charadon on my SW border. The barbs are sending beaucoup units through the territory of these two civs. I never saw them go through the territory of civs at peace with them before. My Eastern borders are wide open too and I am getting plenty of barbs from that direction too. Basically, I am getting my 5 cities hit from 360 degrees. Still early in the game, and I have at least a dozen units with over 150 xp (I selected the Raider trait as Adaptive for Cassiel). I am fending them off my improvements, but the game is getting rather tedious as I cannot muster an army to take out barbs, Charadon and Jonas.

3. Part of the problem goes back to something I have been seeing in every game since .25 - the Bear Explosion. Bears, at least 150, have surrounded the other 5 ai civs. The other barbs don't seem to like wading through all the Bears so they go straight through Jonas' and Charadon's territory where there are no Bears straight for me. I opened the World Builder and there are virtually no barb units in the territory of the other civs. They are all pouring into my lands for the last 200 turns!

4. Without a doubt this has been the best raging barb challenge I have had in .30. I haven't yet seen any of the squatting problems I noted in another thread although there are plenty of barb cities, particularly on my Eastern borders. Again, I just can't break out to get these cities as it seems I need every defender. If Jonas or Charadon declares war on me, and I suspect they will, I will have lots of action.

Anyway, again, I'm not sure if it was your modmod, or just a good game (I'd like to think the former), but definitely my best .30 game to date!

Thanks a lot!!!:)
 
Sarisin said:
OK, Blakmane, I'm 400 turns into my Epic game with your modmod and I have had some rather surprising things happen...most not expected.

First, for a change, I tried to play Cassiel, but all the other game settings were the same as for the 5 previous games of .30 I played (except one was Marathon instead of Epic): Monarch, Huge Fantasy Realm map with 9 ai civs, Raging Barbs, AggAI, Wildlands, Barbarian Lands.

1. I ended up with Jonas AND Charadon in the game and this has really created problems for me that I did not expect! I know you said you were still looking for a way to have ai civs with the Barbarian trait not declare war early. Well, incredibly in this game I am up to turn 400 and BOTH Jonas and Charadon are still at peace with the barbs!

2. This peace has created some difficulty for me. Two ai civs went down, leaving 5 civs that the barbs can pick on. This leads me to another thing I never saw before. I have Jonas on my NW border and Charadon on my SW border. The barbs are sending beaucoup units through the territory of these two civs. I never saw them go through the territory of civs at peace with them before. My Eastern borders are wide open too and I am getting plenty of barbs from that direction too. Basically, I am getting my 5 cities hit from 360 degrees. Still early in the game, and I have at least a dozen units with over 150 xp (I selected the Raider trait as Adaptive for Cassiel). I am fending them off my improvements, but the game is getting rather tedious as I cannot muster an army to take out barbs, Charadon and Jonas.

3. Part of the problem goes back to something I have been seeing in every game since .25 - the Bear Explosion. Bears, at least 150, have surrounded the other 5 ai civs. The other barbs don't seem to like wading through all the Bears so they go straight through Jonas' and Charadon's territory where there are no Bears straight for me. I opened the World Builder and there are virtually no barb units in the territory of the other civs. They are all pouring into my lands for the last 200 turns!

4. Without a doubt this has been the best raging barb challenge I have had in .30. I haven't yet seen any of the squatting problems I noted in another thread although there are plenty of barb cities, particularly on my Eastern borders. Again, I just can't break out to get these cities as it seems I need every defender. If Jonas or Charadon declares war on me, and I suspect they will, I will have lots of action.

Anyway, again, I'm not sure if it was your modmod, or just a good game (I'd like to think the former), but definitely my best .30 game to date!

Thanks a lot!!!:)
Click to expand...

Thanks for you input, i'm glad to see that the clan and charadon are doing well in the kinds of games they should do well in now (raging barbs, agressive AI etc.). Also i'm glad you had such a fun game :)

Yeah, the barbs actually run a warscript similar to other civs. They target individual civs (usually those doing well) and bring full force against them. I've often seen barbs walking right past undefended cities in order to get to me :lol:. I'm not sure if that's something kael put into the game, or just part of the vanilla AI.
 
Ah, upon further review...

It's funny how 100 turns can make such a difference.

Now I am past turn 500 and the barbs have stopped passing through Clan and Doviello territory. Still no war with the barbs for those two, but I wonder why the barbs stopped passing through their territory?

And, sadly, I am seeing more squatting behavior as I spotted two barb cities with more defenders than can show on the screen. Why don't they move out and RAGE?

Plenty of Bears again. Same-same.

I've decided to switch to Basium and after he gains strength, I will send him out with a supporting cast to take out the three remaining Evil civs (Clan, Doviello, and Sheaim). That should move the counter up (only at 42 now) and open up some space for the barbs.

A report in another 200 turns....

Thanks again!
 
... and how did it go?
 
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