The Nobles Club Bullpen

Hi gang! I have decided to start a new bullpen thread for us. The other original thread was started by Krick19, who had this brilliant idea of a series that was aimed at the Noble level player, so we could share ideas, thought processes, etc, in an effort to learn to play the game better and eventually move up to higher difficulties. We try to create games that will be beneficial in learning specific things, and pick leaders that are easier to play those conditions.

Krick19 is the one who deserves all the credit for this series. I sort of "took the bull by the horns" to help organize and create games and such. r_rolo1 has also been a HUGE help for us.

My ONLY reason for creating this new thread is so that I can edit this Opening Post each time we do one, and create a link to them all. Krick was doing it, but I dont want to obligate him to edit the other post, he is already a couple behind. Krick is also running Succession Games for players at the Noble/Prince skill level, and I will link them here as well. I hope I am not overstepping my boundries, I mean no disrespect to Krick at all, and in fact, feel obligated to him for coming up with this idea in the first place, and allowing me to sort of "run" it. I have lots of free time, and truly enjoy helping people and playing "Common Map" games.

So here are the important links, which will be edited each time we start a new one. Reply in this thread for ideas on the next "theme" we wish to play, and we can start discussion leaders, maps, etc.

Original Idea Thread which has some discussions. A good read for those intersted in this format. This is where it all began.

Nobles Club I, Elizabeth. FIN and PHI are traits that are fairly easy to play.
Nobles Club II, Ramesses II. SPI/IND, another set of great traits, on a Continents map.
Nobles Club III, Kublai Khan. CRE/AGG, Pangaea Map, great UU for a Conquest/Domination situation.
Nobles Club IV, Frederick. Map unknown. but an attempt to try and learn to play an SE with a strong leader for that style.
Nobles Club V, Hannibal. A water based map with a very strong leader on that type of map. Trade Route Economy learner.
Nobles Club VI, Brennus. Another "war oriented" type of game, with Aggressive AI setting turned on, and a Civ with solid warmongering traits and UU/UB.
Nobles Club VII, Sitting Bull. Who is the AI that makes you groan the most when he pops up? For me, its no contest, SB takes it by a mile!
Nobles Club VIII, De Gaulle. A flexible leader suited for war or building, on a Pangaea map!

Succession Games:
NGSG I, Suryavarman. The first SG many of us played, If your interested in future ones, head over and put your name in. We can likely run a couple SGs with enough interest, and could try cool things like running 2 games from the same start, and seeing how they differ, or run a Noble difficulty game and a Prince difficulty game, etc. Lots of fun in this format, if you havent tried it, check it out. You can discuss it here or there, or even on the Original NC thread linked above.
NCSG II-1 and NCSG II-2, Lincoln! This time we decided to create 2 teams, both playing the same maps! No peeking at the other thread allowed until a set point! Lots of fun so far, SGs are great for learning to really pay close attention to details.

So its time to discuss the next round. I know many are still playing NC V, Hannibal, so I am not going to push for a new one right away, but now is the time to discuss our next "theme".

We have tried an SE leader, an AGG leader with a strong UU, and a Water-map type leader. One suggestion that rolo made was that we try another Conquer-Domination type game, but with "Always War" checked on, since there are some players who seem to struggled a bit with their military presence, even on games designed to showcase it, like the KK game. We could do a game with 2 version, Always War on one, and the same map/AIs, but with only Conquest/Domination wins possible. Its up to you folks though, the players who will be doing the actual playing.

So I am open to other ideas though. This thread is the place to chat about the future of this series, so dont be shy!

Always War is a good idea.. I've never played on that setting, but I'd want to try. May I suggest Ghengis Khan or Shaka as the leader?!?

Can't say that I'm a big fan of "Always War", it seems fairly exploitable in some cases, but the best use war in my opinion is to have something to gain via peace treaties.

However, if we are going to do Always War, then Shaka would be my choice, or even better, one of the Caesars.

Does always war mean the AI's even fight each other at all times? What about war weariness?

Depending on the above I'd be up for it. Otherwise, just limit victory types if it's going to be too ridiculous, although for SOME of us that won't be much of a limitation (What, noble's club V wasn't a war map?! ). Between Zulu and Rome, I'll vote Zulu. Everyone knows prats! Impi aren't a joke though, and the Ikhanda is a great building (though the organized trait helps in much the same way). Up to the rest...

Hey Bleys, good move starting up a official bullpen for Nobles Club, Cheers .

I have to admit I'm not sure about the always war idea. I am one of those players who struggles with the war aspect of the game and I am keen to improve this side of my game, I'm just not sure "always war" is the best way to go about it, I guess its like being thrown in the deep end!

Although you mentioned having the choice of always war or normal I feel this club is built on the strength of us all playing the same game, so I suggest seeing how everyone feels about the idea and you making an overall decision on the general feedback, picking one or the other. If always war gets the overall vote then I guess I'm game to give it ago.

How about always peace? yes, yes, I know, I'm a whip!

I'm not against the idea of playing with the settings though, I think as Nobles Club goes on it might be neccassary to play around with the options to keep it interesting.

Always war means the AIs are at war with the player but at peace with themselves.

As the suggestion was mine ...

AW is a nice school of how to make war.... you'll fight a lot and your units get promos far faster, making your army a veteran one pretty quick ( I know, I'm playing a AW SG right now ). In my converstion with Bleys he mentioned the possibility of this reaction, so I also suggested Agg AI... now as war biased as AW but pretty war oriented.

Bleys also suggested a normal game with only conquest/Dom enabled.... it may be enough. Only playing diferent experiences we can get better in this game... and this Club is all about it

About Always peace: it is bugged in Civ IV. Ai does not recognize it and still builds large armies and tries to bully the humans. You'll not learn anything from there, Groogaroo

If you go AW , I strongly suggest that you disable tech trading... AI gets really friendly with eachother due to the shared struggle bonus and tech trade like crazy.

r_rolo1 said:

About Always peace: it is bugged in Civ IV. Ai does not recognize it and still builds large armies and tries to bully the humans. You'll not learn anything from there, Groogaroo

Click to expand...

I was kinda kidding about always peace and making a point of how much of a coward I am in this game (which probably explains my dislike of the idea of always war). But I am up for whatever goes.

My concern with either always war or a conq/dom restriction is that I always perform poorly with these types of victories as with the Kublai Khan game (the only Nobles Club game I never finished).

What kind of map types suit an always war game?

Groogaroo said:

What kind of map types suit an always war game?

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The hub map script.

I started a thread a while ago asking for advice on leaders for learning warmongering, which y'all should read if you want to consider war next (but I'd rather not have Always War just yet).

I've been slowly working towards a collection of "how to learn warmongering" examples: Julius Caesar on Pangaea, Boudicca on Highlands, and Ragnar on Archipelago were three I intended. I'd be happy to post the starts if anyone is interested.

Ragnar on archipelago is amazing for warmongling.

We just played a water map though. I was thinking along the lines of Pangaea or Fractal again.

Perhaps just using a leader who is good at warmongering again is the ticket. I think those players who are not strong with the military aspect of the game know who they are, so perhaps having another war leader like JC or Shaka is a plan. I am leaning toward JC, he is REALLY easy to play and war with.

There are other solid warring leaders as well. Monty of course, SPI adds extra flavor for dropping in and out of military-building techs like Theocracy and Vassalage. The Persians have a strong, early UU as well, but we have done lots of horses already, heh. Personally, I wouldnt mind Shaka, I havent played a serious game with him yet. Pacal has a decent UU, and good REXing ability. Justinian is another I havent played, or even Jaoa or Ragnar on a Continents map?

Boudi on Highlands, as dalambs article suggests, is a great idea. AGG and CHA, hills for the Guerilla upgrade.

Going to be a few days before the next one goes up, so keep making suggestions. The Hannibal game is still getting some play, and I dont want to rush anyone. Dalambs thread has some good input on the topic, including picking a civ that DOESNT have an early UU or military traits as the best way to learn to war. Maybe Asoka with Always War on, LOL. Now that sounds interesting!

Ohhhh, I'd do a Celts game too. I don't care which leader.

They aren't only good on hills maps. If you have a settled GG, or are even just running vassalage or theocracy, you can get guerrilla III troops out of the gate. This goes for both the UU and all archery/gunpowder up until rifles (I think). If one stays away from rifling they can have massed up withdrawal grenadiers perhaps? That might be fun.

50% withdraw is a really powerful boost (the hills ATTACK doesn't hurt either!). With any stack defense at all they can put terrible hurtings while on on the offensive (hell, they ARE the stack defense if you can stick to hills!

I wouldnt put the celtic UU above rome's, but IMO it's still really strong (and you can cheese out longbows, xbows, etc with huge withdrawals also, using pikes to keep the knights off of you).

I'm starting to workshop more. "hammer" economy? More like "hammer THEIR economy". Then take it. AI doesn't use them well either. Good times. (yet another synergy for the less-traveled bottom tech path: Chemistry opens up the final workshop hammer, also guilds of course. This is on top of the fact that if you're expanding via war a lot, money multipliers are often superior to science).

Huh, this is a nice find. As I haven't played Civ a long-long time I'll start from game 1.

As were going with a war theme I would like to play a leader with the spiritual trait, one thing I find is I don't take enough advantage of war time civics, so maybe Asoka or Monty for me.

I'd like to try Monty on a Fractal for our next game. I almost never play Spiritual leaders and it seems the next game will be an aggressive leader.

I have to say AW just doesn't strick me as much fun. Could be wrong I guess....

Would preffer AGG AI.

Map type: I like the sound of fractal - I like the random element that makes exploring really fun and important!

Leader? Well AGG or CHA are a definate IMO so my initial thoughts....

I love the idea of Monty - he has a silly hat! Hes AGG/SPI.
Starting techs: Mysticism and Hunting. Not great to be honest but can start an early religious economy or hook up some easy resourses (jumbos and fur) also if you get some dear in the BFC, great!!!
UU is a sword that would be good on a jungle or forest heavy map as they start with woodsman I out the gate and with a barracks thats woodsman II right there. The trouble is they are weaker than the unit they replace (why? Jaguars are a resourseless unit i guess but its still totaly lame).
UB makes whipping a real pleasure with a 50% reduction in the anger time produced from whipping, also its cheaper to build than the courthouse it replaces (90 rather than 120 ) and still retains the maintainence reduction benifit!!! Very nice.
Also it would be nice not to face him as an AGG AI!!!

The Celts. Both are really sweet for a very aggressive game. Bodica is AGG/CHA - hello war! - and Brennus is SPI/CHA.
Starting techs: Hunting and Mysticism. Ummm, not great but good for boosting the early happy cap - monuments with CAR and potentially jumbos or fur. Also religious economy anyone?!
UU is a sword that would be good on a rocky map or even just a normal map - AIs often settle on hills after all - as it starts with gureilla I off the bat. Gurilla III makes this agreat promotion line due to the 50% withdrawal chance. The free promo IS upgradeable!
The UB is a wall that gives free guerilla I out the door which seems a waist on first look as the UU starts with guerilla I anyway. Then you realise you can give yor stack protectors that bonous for free and it seems better - move from hill to hill in enermy territory and your sorted.

Shaka. What can I say? AGG/EXP.
Starting techs: Agriculture and Hunting. Hunting is needed for his UU and Agr is a great food tech to start with.
UU is a spear which has a free non upgradable mobility promtion (pillage? yes please!). Also the extra speed is ideal for suprise attacks and worker stealing. Give some of them shock and combat promos to help them survive axe attacks and your sorted.
UB is a barracks that reduces city maintainence by 20% for 10 more hammers than a normal barracks, but since your AGG the barracks costs 50% less anyway. Thats some great synergy. Also like Monty it would be great not to face him as an aggressive AI!!

All the above CIVs have an early UU and UB and are fairly obvious warmongers.

Here are some other ideas.

Gandhi. Hes PHI/SPI so good for a specialist heavy economy (which are great for waring with due to the flexability they provide early on) and he can switch to those war civics without any hassle at the drop of a hat - a hat like Montys would do - and then quikely back to being a tech monster which is also good for warmongering.
Starting techs: Mysticism Mining. Nice link with SPI and Mysticism. Mining means a fast line to Bronze and a potential early rush.
His UU is the fast worker with 3 moves instead of 2. This means he can improve those tiles fast and get those newly captured cities online ASAP. Also the Indian UU is the only one that never obselets so is usefull from start to finish.
Indias UB is a replacement for jails which gives +2 as well as the -25% war weariness reduction of a jail and its EP boosts (+4 EP and +50% EP production and the ability to assign 2 spys). The extra means you can war for longer while ignoring the war weariness. Yummy. Need I say more?

Gilgamesh. Hes CRE/PRO and looks like a fierce lion PRO is a good war choice - free drill on your Xbows is taisty good. Creative means no waisting hammers on monuments in new cities and you can claim more loand and resourses faster.
Starting techs: The Wheel and Agriculture. Agr is nice for the food and wheel means you can link up your stratigic resourses ASAP!
UU is an axe with stength 6 but only 25% bonouse verses melee instead of 50%. Still IMO that extra strength is great as it makes your UU more versatile and thus great for warring.
UB is a courthouse that opens up with priesthood instead of CoL and costs 30 less that a regular courthouse. This means you can expand fast and manage those cost more easilly than most.

There are other choices obviously but these are the ones I like the sound of.

For more info on UUs go here.

For more info on UBs go here.

Ok thats it for now!!!

schwartz said:

it seems the next game will be an aggressive leader.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily: JC has no obvious warmonger traits but I'm often told he's a very good warleader to start with when you're learning. CHA is also a good warmonger trait, so Brennus could be appropriate especially for someone who also wants a SPI leader. The article I linked mentioned many others, some without war traits but with good UU.

If you want to say the truth , gandhi ( yup, Mr Gandhi, the peacenik ..... or not that much: finally ,after some years playing civ, Gandhi Dowed the human in one of my games ( PH 13 ).... having a exposed and defendless city is too much temptation even for Gandhi AI, it looks ) is a fine leader for warring in the hands of a human... His UU allows you to develop your land faster and his traits are also very helpful.