Spies : How do you use them?

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King
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
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950
The most effective way seems to be to use them to rig CS elections...

Even on quick, stealing a tech takes 40+ turns...WITHOUT constabularies. This is a waste of time when i can research a tech in 5 turns or less.

And how is it that a spy can rig a dozen elections and not gain rank?

I don't know, the whole spying mechanic seems very rushed and unfinished. For one thing, why dont you get any spies before renaissance? Do the devs think nobody spied before then? Why can't you do things like sabotaging cities with spies?

Is there a mod that improves this?
 
Spies don't arrive until Renaissance because that's when the effects of religion start to fade.

Gameplay wise, you begin to trade one system for another.
 
I use my first spy defensively in my capital. Depending upon which of my other cities are cranking out science, I usually play defense in one of those with the second. And the others (when I get them), I use to spy on other civs and steal techs (if possible). If I'm ahead tech-wise, then I still keep spies in the strong AI's capitals for intrigue. Later on, I use them to place in CS's that I am allies with.

Yeah--you are right--it does take a long time to steal techs. But don't forget--if the AI is ahead of you tech-wise, it may be worth those 30 or 40 turns. Even though it may take you five (so you say) turns, you can research other things. I guess it depends on their tech advancements.

I believe spys get promoted when they kill a spy, or steal a tech. Nothing for rigging elections, and I agree with that. It's too easy to rig elections.
 
A favorite use of spies is to hopscotch around among the rival civ capitals gathering intrigue to share with other civs. Small diplo boost, and it allows me to peek at the other civ capitals to discern current build (particularly if I'm about to start a mid or late game wonder and have a choice of wonders - e.g., choice between the Pisa-to-engineer-to-PT slingshot or aim straight for Porcelain Tower - and don't want to get stuck with lost turns and some consolation gold).
 
when i first get one, i move him to my biggest city and hope he stops another civ from stealing a tech

after he levels up once, i move him into an enemy city in hopes he can steal a tech there

rarely do i move him directly into an enemy city but sometimes i do
depends on the map and what's going on
 
It depends on what difficulty you are playing. On lower setting the AI is not great at science and so the potential for research stealing will be poor, and you'd be better off rigging elections and protecting your own research against theft (Emperor and lower). On High difficulty, the AI has good enough science that stealing is a very good idea and goes fast. Also you will probably have little to no tech lead by renaissance and so no need to leave one in your capital for the time being.


On my most recent Deity win, as soon as Attila made it to the renaissance and gave everyone a spy, I moved my spy to his capital, and it was able to steal a tech every 5-8 turns. VERY helpful
 
The cost of stealing techs only really ramps up a lot later in the game. When you first get spies, stealing can be quite a good option, and doesn't often take as long as 40 turns.
 
you can steal techs a LOT faster than that most of the time if the conditions are right. The more concentrated the science output of a civ is in their capital, the more potential it has. so you want to aim for the largest capitals, not necessarily the tech leader. if you put a spy in a new city and its more than ~15 turns then pick another capital. maybe you can share some intrigue before moving so its not a total loss. whether to go on defense or offense first depends mostly on if you are the tech leader or not. If you are the tech leader with a big capital you'll be a juicy target so defense is better, if you need to catch up then go for offense. either way you can level up pretty quickly. then once leveled up THEN go for the city states so you'll beat the AI and their shenanigans.
 
I agree, they really dumbed down spies from the pretty clever mechanic in CIV4. I heard someone once describe spies in G&K as similar to a Facebook game (meaning poorly made and rushed) and I have to agree, spies don't seem to be important or very thoughtfully made.
 
similar to a Facebook game

its a somewhat simple system, but c'mon...that's a low blow. it does what it's supposed to do, it just has modest goals (help prevent runaways, make the CS game more interesting). I wouldn't be surprised to see more options added at some point.
 
On Emperor and above, I use my first spy to counterspy if I'm the tech lead. Use him to steal techs if I'm not. Once he's promoted to lvl 3 or I'm the new tech leader, he's gonna stay in the capital. In later eras, new spies go to the capital for some killin and promotion. Highly-promoted spies go to CSes for coups.
 
When playing on deity, I just can't wait for some of the AI-s to finally hit renaissance, and give me a spy, to be able to steal techs finally. On deity, you are going to still lag behind on tech by renaissance, so spying is very helpful for catching up.

Stealing a tech every ten turns or less, in addition to what you're researching yourself, is very helpful and can help you to concentrate in one area, and backfill everything else.

Then, at a certain point, stealing times grow long. That't the moment when I move my spies to city states. I might sometimes leave 1st level spies in AI cities, though, to get promotions after 20 or so turns of stealing work.
 
pretty clever mechanic in CIV4. I

:cry:

I hated the spies in Civ IV with a passion. Every time when I see a post from someone wishing that "your water supplies were poisoned" would make a comeback, I die a little inside.

I do agree that spies maybe have too few functions now, but I like the fact that you don't have to move them around physically and some of the stuff they do is cool (intrigue especially). I like them more than the ones in Civ IV, though I guess that doesn't mean much.

I don't know if I'm in a minority on this, but personally I'd have been happier if movement for Missionaries and Inquisitors was treated the same and I didn't have to micromanage them around the map.
 
Spies are great - I personally think they're the MOST under appreciated aspect of G and K. If you think spies are a waste of time or undeveloped then you're playing the game wrong. Seriously. I hope you don't also think that diplomacy sucks?

Regards tech stealing, other posters have explained the best methods and mechanisms. But forget about tech stealing, that's a minor side to spying.

Basically spies are a subtle and clever extra tool at your disposal to do all kinds of things in the game most especially regards diplomacy.

I need to get DOF's because I need RA's. But I can't get the AI to become friends. I start shopping my spies around for intrigue. It may take 3 or 4 dips but eventually I find something useful. I pass on the info. Positive diplo modifier. Then, if I get lucky, i find some more and share that. Pretty soon the AI wants to be friends. I have to work for the DOF - great. But the working for it is what makes it feel good.

My CS ally is possibly being stolen by the AI. Stick a spy in the city and carefully let him fix the elections for you. I get influence points without paying for them, and without having to run an errand for him. This has saved me a UN vote or two at deity.

I want to build the Statue of Liberty, but am worried that Napoleon who reached the Industrial era before me might already have started. I don't want to waste production hammers. Shove a spy in his capital and second largest city and see what he's building.

There's a runaway AI who's bootstomping across the continent. How many units has he got? What's he producing? I can't see his actual number of units. But sending 3 spies into his cities, in four or five turns I can see what his build queues are like, what military techs he's got. I can place a spy in a city he's attempting to take and quickly see what kind of number of units there are assaulting the city.

I'm sure there's more ways to use them that I haven't found yet.

Who wants results and options laid out for you in black and white in a table where you pool points? That doesn't require thought. The scores should not be on the doors.

This system is open. You use it as you wish. You get the benefits as far as you are able to see the benefits. If you can't see many benefits, have a look at the way you're playing not at the system. It aint broke. It works amazingly well. My apologies for my harsh tone. It's just I've read an awful number of posts whining about spying, saying how it's just not any good and Civ IV was better etc etc. And I bang my head on the table and ask myself how come the people who can't see the subtlety have to shout loudest?
 
Even a 20+ pop city takes 40+ turns for me to steal tech on quick though...whats with that? And that's on a tech leader, so it should be producing a lot of science...
 
Spies are great - I personally think they're the MOST under appreciated aspect of G and K. If you think spies are a waste of time or undeveloped then you're playing the game wrong. Seriously. I hope you don't also think that diplomacy sucks?
...
Nice post! I'd flag up a couple issues.

First, there aren't quite enough spies to go round. Obviously it would be stupid if you had 20 spies and could do everything you wanted - having a tight limit is good, because then you're forced to prioritize and make difficult choices. But maybe a 2nd spy from the beginning would help just give you a few more options at any one time - though at present that's a really nice unique bonus for England - or maybe tying new spies to particular technologies rather than getting one like clockwork every era, so that you had to factor that into your teching priorities.

The other thing is micromanagement. Why don't I get a notification when a spy has finished establishing surveillance, instead of having to remember (or more likely, forget) to check back on the espionage screen in 3 turns? That's just annoying. Equally, if a city builds a constabulary (so my timing push that expects to steal a technology in 14 turns just went down the drain), why doesn't the spy notice that and give me a notification?
 
there aren't quite enough spies to go round.

I have the same impression. The small number of spies is making them a commodity that I often can't afford to waste on cool, but ineffective ways (like checking who's building what wonders).

On the other hand, if there were too many of them, the coups would really get out of hand.
 
i pretty much always have my spies in other cities

i agree that not getting experience from rigging elections doesn't make sense but successful rigging is based on how long a spy has been in the CS and its experience. if it leveled up every time it rigged an election then it's basically whoever gets the spy to the CS first wins all the influence for the rest of the game
 
I think that they should make spies work on a "have a percentage chance to do something each turn" rather than "be guaranteed to do something every X turns".

Too often my spy might spend 20 turns in an enemy city trying to steal tech from them, but then I research whatever that civ had to steal and those 20 turns are wasted. I'd prefer to have a 5% chance of success (just divide 100 by the number of turns to get the percentage) each turn, that way I might get lucky and get it a bit early, or get unlucky and take longer, but either way I haven't wasted time.
 
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