[Religion and Revolution]: Feedback and Questions

About founding fathers points, remember that political points are also required for all founding fathers. So the fact you get exploration points fast in normal speed doesn't mean you get exploration FF as fast.

You mean gathering exploration points in gigantic amounts doesn´t mean I get political points just as fast?
Well, the whole point of the fatherpercent setting seems to be to raise the cost of Founding Fathers to scale with the size of the map as larger maps mean more space for colonies which can produce political points by building e.g. villagehalls for 30 political points. So it does make sense to demand a higher cost in all points the larger the map is. Raising fatherpercent by 10 for gigantic maps seems to me to only correct an oversight as it is raised by 10 for all other mapsizes before gigantic.

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Nightingale is right though that it's on other speeds that flaws happen. Indeed, points of all categories are simply multiplied according to the speed. This system work well for religious, trade and political points, it doesn't for exploration and military points.

Considering exploration points, multiplying them by 3 means that on a gigantic marathon game, there's simply not enough tiles. So you end up having discovered the full map, but missing exploration founding fathers because you've ran out of all your points.

I don´t think that is correct.
I just started a testgame:
RAR Americas Gigantic map, Explorer difficulty, Marathon speed, fatherpercent 160 (instead of the 150 in the R&R file, modified by me for my game)

The exploration founding fathers shown cost 2000, 2720, 3600 and 4800 exploration points so 13120 for all of the four.

The map has 136X256 plots according to it´s description, so 34816 tiles to explore. 9 are already known at the start (the visibility range of the starting ship).
Even if it would be all water and each would gain only 1 exploration point there would be enough EP to gather and EP are not only earned from exploring tiles but for meeting natives too. Larger map = more natives = more EP.

Edit: I just started a testgame using the highest difficulty setting too as I think that Nightingales post meant that not only mapsize and speed, but difficulty raises founding father cost too:
RAR Americas Gigantic map, Revolutionary difficulty, Marathon speed, (fatherpercent 160 instead of 150, modified by me for my game)

Exploration Founding Fathers change their exploration point cost to 2500, 3400, 4500 and 6000 to a sum of 16400 for all 4.
So even on the highest difficulty and the lowest speed setting and with the cost increased by 10 to 160 there are still more EP to be gathered than needed...

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However, as Ray told wisely, Marathon speed offers no benefits in Civ4Col in general. In Civ4, I enjoy playing Marathon because of technological research, so that I can enjoy fully an era before reaching another one. This isn't true in Civ4Col because "eras" are determined by your own trade and expansion growth. So playing in normal speed is really strongly advised.

I am playing on normal speed in my normal game.

What is more serious is that in my normal game and in my testgame I don´t get any trade points for trading with natives. In the file it reads that nativetrade has a value of 15 and I thought that meant I would get 15 trade points for 100 gold traded with natives.
Are only full loads of 100 of a good counted when selling and buying?
Or is that a problem only in my game and anyone else gets trading points from selling to natives on gigantic maps?
Or are only trade with waggons counted and my ships sales and purchases don´t count as nativetrade for trade points?
 
RAR Americas Gigantic map, Explorer difficulty, Marathon speed, fatherpercent 160 (instead of the 150 in the R&R file, modified by me for my game)

The exploration founding fathers shown cost 2000, 2720, 3600 and 4800 exploration points so 13120 for all of the four.
Oh. I see your mistake. There's actually a lot more than 4 exploration FF. There are actually 18 exploration FF in total. There's a scroll bar at the bottom of the screen, in dragging it to the right you'll see them all. :)

I can tell you there are precisely 250,180 exploration points to be earnt on RAR Americas Gigantic map, and depending on game parameters approximately 200,000 points required to get all exploration founding fathers on normal speed. But it's impossible anyway to get all founding fathers because the AI opponents will necessarily take their share. Trust me, it really fits perfectly. :)

Be confident about that kind of game balance. RayStuttgart, the lead creator of the RAR mod, has done really a fantastic job in this regard.
 
There's a scroll bar at the bottom of the screen, in dragging it to the right you'll see them all. :)
Well spotted. I completely missed this part of the issue :crazyeye:

While RaR is (mostly) well balanced, it might actually be an issue that the map can scale all FF point requirements, but not individual ones. For instance the double amount of plots would require double costs of exploration, but at the same time not double amount of military points as they scale differently. It's actually a highly complex problem when you start to think about it. There are so many possible ways to set up a game regarding map size and game speed. I wouldn't count on every single one to be well tested for balance, meaning I will not rule out people reporting some glitches here.

Maybe the issue is not that great after all. If say military points are hard to get, then that will be the case for everybody, meaning it would still be balanced between players. It would make the game different, but it will not provide a great benefit for just one player as the rules applies to everybody. Perhaps there is an issue regarding Europeans vs Natives though.
 
As a matter of fact Nightinggale, I've been thinking a lot about all this in the recent weeks and I believe that the major improvement which could come with RARE would be in automatizing some stuff to make the game less tedious, especially by the end when we lead a super huge empire.

I won't talk it more now because it's very late and I'm litteraly falling asleep, but I'll try to make a nice post about it on tomorrow. :)
 
Oh. I see your mistake. There's actually a lot more than 4 exploration FF. There are actually 18 exploration FF in total. There's a scroll bar at the bottom of the screen, in dragging it to the right you'll see them all. :)

Silly me - I completely missed that. o.k. Scrolling to the right - then all exploration founding fathers combined on hardest difficulty, Marathon speed and gigantic map with 160 fatherpercent would cost 814400 exploration points and the higher exploration points income from exploring makes sense for those settings.

I can tell you there are precisely 250,180 exploration points to be earnt on RAR Americas Gigantic map, and depending on game parameters approximately 200,000 points required to get all exploration founding fathers on normal speed. But it's impossible anyway to get all founding fathers because the AI opponents will necessarily take their share. Trust me, it really fits perfectly. :)

Are the 250180 ex points for exploring terrain only or do those include the points from meeting and scouting natives and for exploring ruins?
 
Are the 250180 ex points for exploring terrain only or do those include the points from meeting and scouting natives and for exploring ruins?
5 points for each land tile unveiled, 3 points for sea tiles, 50 points for native nations met, 50 points for native villages scouted, 100 points for goody huts.
 
Well spotted. I completely missed this part of the issue :crazyeye:

While RaR is (mostly) well balanced, it might actually be an issue that the map can scale all FF point requirements, but not individual ones. For instance the double amount of plots would require double costs of exploration, but at the same time not double amount of military points as they scale differently. It's actually a highly complex problem when you start to think about it. There are so many possible ways to set up a game regarding map size and game speed. I wouldn't count on every single one to be well tested for balance, meaning I will not rule out people reporting some glitches here.

Do all maps have to be balanced? When R&R implemented the 2-radius-cities doesn´t that practically mean that it´s suggested to play on larger maps than normal?
 
All map sizes should be playable and indeed they are. They are all fairly well balanced in the sense that the same rules applies to all players. The map size does affect gameplay though as small maps might make lots of movement points less important. The maps are balanced for two plot radius, but it appears that using one plot radius in RaRE using the same settings also works quite nice. It becomes a totally different game, but it's still balanced.

Game balance is bad if something is insanely good or utterly useless. For instance if you need to explore 80% of the map to get all exploration FFs, then it could be ok. If you need to explore 400% or 20%, then the numbers are unbalanced. The key to well balanced is that it should allow whatever strategy the player wants and not make some strategy much better than anything else, like only build unit X because it beats everything else. To my knowledge no map size makes the game unbalanced like that.
 
I still haven´t earned a single tradepoint in my current game despite trading with the natives and receiving the "many trade agreements" achievement.

Do I understand the line
<iNativeTradeGoldPointPercent>15</iNativeTradeGoldPointPercent>
wrong when I think that trading with natives should grant trade points?
 
I still haven´t earned a single tradepoint in my current game despite trading with the natives and receiving the "many trade agreements" achievement.

Chances are you are reading something wrong.
Trade points come very easily as soon as you drop something off i.e. SELL in Europe or the natives. So unless its some extremely unlikely bug you should get some trade points. The trade agreement achievements can be triggered by purchasing stuff from Indians so technically you could get that event without ever selling anything even though that is highly unlikely or you are playing very weirdly without selling in Europe.
 
Chances are you are reading something wrong.
Trade points come very easily as soon as you drop something off i.e. SELL in Europe or the natives. So unless its some extremely unlikely bug you should get some trade points. The trade agreement achievements can be triggered by purchasing stuff from Indians so technically you could get that event without ever selling anything even though that is highly unlikely or you are playing very weirdly without selling in Europe.

I thought it would give trade points for both sales and purchases from natives.
That´s how I understood the FAQ too:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/colonization/strategy/foundingfathers
" &#9675; 15 per 100 gold - Native Trade Gold (Assuming Purchase or Sale) "
 
Hello! Thank you for a great mod! Are you guys going to add science tree in it, like in Medieval_Conquest mod for example? With science tree it will be even more perfect.
 
This mod is dead. I started RaRE where RaR left off, but I haven't been able to work on it, meaning it's in deep sleep right now. Adding a tech tree requires a lot of work to even support it and once you have it, it requires a lot of work to get fun and balanced. This is a huge task even without considering the AI.

Having said that, it would be an awesome addition. I'm just not seeing it happening in any realistic future, at least not unless somebody else shows up with a lot of skill and time (which is unlikely).
 
Can someone please explain tax mechanics.From time to time I notice that MAX tax rate has risen.
Other question is if I sell goods from Custom house what price is calculated?Does it include King tax?
 
Does anyone have a primer or quick guide on how to use the Import feeder? I understand the basic of how to set imports and exports in cities, but not how the feeder works.
 
Feeder means the city turns imports on and off based on hysteresis rather than a simple compare. It turns imports off when the city has enough and turns in on again when it's below 75%.

Example: a colony without forests imports to maintain 200 lumber. There is 150. A wagon train unloads 100. With 250 lumber, imports turns off. the carpenter(s) use 6/turn until the storage goes below 150 (75% of 200), in which case imports turns on again. It will turn off once transports have made the storage reach 200 again.

The idea is that while the transports supply the same amount in say 20 turns, they will do so with fewer journeys, which in turn provides free time to handle other cargo. The main problem with fully automated transports is if you use it for something like ensuring that all colonies have enough lumber. A wagon train can easily get stuck delivering 6 lumber and then next turn it delivers 6 lumber again because that is the closest route with cargo to move.
 
Feeder means the city turns imports on and off based on hysteresis rather than a simple compare. It turns imports off when the city has enough and turns in on again when it's below 75%.

Example: a colony without forests imports to maintain 200 lumber. There is 150. A wagon train unloads 100. With 250 lumber, imports turns off. the carpenter(s) use 6/turn until the storage goes below 150 (75% of 200), in which case imports turns on again. It will turn off once transports have made the storage reach 200 again.

The idea is that while the transports supply the same amount in say 20 turns, they will do so with fewer journeys, which in turn provides free time to handle other cargo. The main problem with fully automated transports is if you use it for something like ensuring that all colonies have enough lumber. A wagon train can easily get stuck delivering 6 lumber and then next turn it delivers 6 lumber again because that is the closest route with cargo to move.

That makes perfect sense. Thank you!
 
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