Civilization 5 and DLC

How will the availability of DLC affect your decision to buy Civ5?

  • DLC makes me more likely to buy the game, I may buy DLC.

    Votes: 18 7.0%
  • DLC makes me more likely to buy the game, I will NOT buy DLC.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • DLC will not affect my decision to buy the game, I may buy DLC.

    Votes: 78 30.4%
  • DLC will not affect my decision to buy the game, I will NOT buy DLC.

    Votes: 44 17.1%
  • DLC makes me less likely to buy the game, I may buy DLC.

    Votes: 29 11.3%
  • DLC makes me less likely to buy the game, I will NOT buy DLC.

    Votes: 61 23.7%
  • I will not buy the game, because of DLC.

    Votes: 27 10.5%

  • Total voters
    257
The deluxe edition will be enough to fracture the mods, at least partly

WILL be? How can you say that. We don't know.

That is a leap that I am not prepared to make.
I am amazed that you find the absence of evidence to be equivalent to support for crackpot theories.

There is no evidence that Civ5 won't actually be a malicious virus that deletes your entire hard-drive.
So does this mean you aren't willing to concede that it probably isn't?

Its entirely possible (though less likely) that all the deluxe edition features will be regular XML and other files that could be copy-pasted.

And even if it isn't, then plenty of mods are fine.
Mods can be either:
a) Total conversion mods, that operate entirely out of their own folder anyway or
b) Mods that use the core base game.

I don't believe they are idiots, but I do believe that they don't care.
They've told you they do care about modability. Why do you just assume they're lying to you?
 
Just pointing out a few random things I've noted in this discussion....

With Civ4 we could delay the patch process at will. And we could run mulitple instalations so we could continue playing mods and games based on an older patch; while still being able to play new games based on the latest patch. Steam doesn't allow for any of that.

People do still play vanilla Civ4 and even Civ3. And there is still an active Civ2 base. Not all mods made for vanilla versions have been updated. Someone said in this thread that they have, but they have not. No problem though... if one of your favored mods has not been updated, you can just re-install a vanilla version of the game and play on (and still have an install of the current version to play). This appears to not be the case for Civ5 since steam doesn't allow it.
 
WILL be? How can you say that. We don't know.


I am amazed that you find the absence of evidence to be equivalent to support for crackpot theories.

There is no evidence that Civ5 won't actually be a malicious virus that deletes your entire hard-drive.
So does this mean you aren't willing to concede that it probably isn't?

Its entirely possible (though less likely) that all the deluxe edition features will be regular XML and other files that could be copy-pasted.

And even if it isn't, then plenty of mods are fine.
Mods can be either:
a) Total conversion mods, that operate entirely out of their own folder anyway or
b) Mods that use the core base game.


They've told you they do care about modability. Why do you just assume they're lying to you?

I don't see why Babylon causing issues is a far out possibility. If not technical ones, then legal ones. Do you honestly think there won't be mods that tweak the civilizations? Your ideas of modding appear to leave no room for mods like RFC. It's either add-a-civ type mods or total conversion - no in between. I forsee something like this in the future:

User: I downloaded this mod, and it crashes when I start a game. What's going on?
Mod creator: This mod requires the Deluxe Edition because it uses Babylon.

Or how about this:

User: I downloaded this mod, and I can't play as Babylon with it even though it doesn't remove civs. What givs?
Mod creator: I only have the regular edition, so I can't support Babylon.

If you believe everything a company's marketing department tells you, you're being naive. I believe Firaxis cares a lot about modability. I don't hold the same for 2K, and ultimatly 2K's attitude is the only one that matters. With civ5 we seem to have a shift towards small modifications for personal use only.
 
I don't see why Babylon causing issues is a far out possibility
You didn't say "its a possibility". You said it WILL cause technical problems and fracture mods. See the difference?

Yes, it will likely pose some legal-type issues. But we have no evidence that it will provide technical problems for mods.

User: I downloaded this mod, and it crashes when I start a game. What's going on?
Mod creator: This mod requires the Deluxe Edition because it uses Babylon.
Anyone who created mods aimed only at a Deluxe edition would be an idiot.

User: I downloaded this mod, and I can't play as Babylon with it even though it doesn't remove civs. What givs?
Mod creator: I only have the regular edition, so I can't support Babylon.
Very possible - but so what?

If you believe everything a company's marketing department tells you, you're being naive
If you believe everything a company says is lies, you're being tinfoil hat paranoid.
 
I don't see why Babylon causing issues is a far out possibility. If not technical ones, then legal ones. Do you honestly think there won't be mods that tweak the civilizations? Your ideas of modding appear to leave no room for mods like RFC. It's either add-a-civ type mods or total conversion - no in between. I forsee something like this in the future:

User: I downloaded this mod, and it crashes when I start a game. What's going on?
Mod creator: This mod requires the Deluxe Edition because it uses Babylon.

Or how about this:

User: I downloaded this mod, and I can't play as Babylon with it even though it doesn't remove civs. What givs?
Mod creator: I only have the regular edition, so I can't support Babylon.

If you believe everything a company's marketing department tells you, you're being naive. I believe Firaxis cares a lot about modability. I don't hold the same for 2K, and ultimatly 2K's attitude is the only one that matters. With civ5 we seem to have a shift towards small modifications for personal use only.

The debate over publishers vs developers really depends on their agreement. You can look over Activision-Blizzard to get an idea about how worried Starcraft 2 fans are over Battle.net 2.0. Mods have always depended on our hardwork to make it useable for people on different versions, or with other mods. And it's free. So regarding your examples:

User: I downloaded this mod, and it crashes when I start a game. What's going on?
Mod creator: This mod requires the Deluxe Edition because it uses Babylon.


User: I downloaded this mod, and I can't play as Babylon with it even though it doesn't remove civs. What givs?
Mod creator: I only have the regular edition, so I can't support Babylon.


Nobody paid for the mod so nobody is entitled to "make it work." If the modder wants everyone to get their hands on it because its so awesome, they should put in the effort to code both versions. Yes it's a lot of work. But it's up to the modder. Its through their efforts that we can get a mod that works with any version if they want everyone to be using it. Yet, as a user I would be disappointed. But then I can still play all the mods that use the normal version. I realize that its not the game that stops me from playing mods, but rather the mods that won't work with certain versions of the game. I knowingly bought the game to play classic civilization along with the fact that custom scenarios or even mods will be available in the future.

What are the chances that every mod uses Babylon? We don't even know what kind of conflicts there will be, though most likely both standard and deluxe edition can play in multiplayer games (meaning the only mod blocker in this case is Babylon civ usage).

Bottom Line: Mods are not entitlements to games. We're lucky they've mentioned that modding is supposedly better than ever in Civ5. If DLCs are enough to scare you away from the modding scene without any proof, then I hope you change your mind by the time Civ5 is out or at least make informed decisions about this without scaring others away.
 
A Marketing Department is just like Politicians, they tell you what they think you want you to hear. You should not believe everything you hear, that is being naive is the real world.

The point that they added content to Steam-release and not to Store-based, shows that Valve and Ubisoft-like 2K likely talked Firaxis into doing so; not looking out for Firaxis/modders' best interests, but for Steam's best interests.

It is obvious that this Pushes people to buy off Steam. You get a small present if you do (even though you pay $$ dearly for it). That is pathetic. This is another 2K pathetic move. There is no doubt in my mind 2K is pushing for massive amounts of DLC. It would be naive to think they are not dreaming of the $$$ they could make.
 
You didn't say "its a possibility". You said it WILL cause technical problems and fracture mods. See the difference?
And you're saying that it WON'T. Guess my argument is invalid since I don't go over every single post with a fine toothed comb though.
Very possible - but so what?
So, since they purchased the deluxe edition, they have a right to use Babylon as long as the mod author didn't change which civs were in the game with the mod.
If you believe everything a company says is lies, you're being tinfoil hat paranoid.
I don't believe either way - but I find it difficult to reconsile "the most moddable civ ever" with DLC.
We don't even know what kind of conflicts there will be
Any mod that alters the civs and/or the leaders is gonna be affected. If you have a total conversion mod or don't touch those files you'll be fine if 2K stops with the deluxe edition.
Mods are not entitlements to games.
As someone who hasn't played the unmodded version of any game in months now, I resent that attitude. I get a LOT more fun out of modding the game than playing it.

As for my modding, I'll be sticking with civ4 regardless. FFH is a better base than civ5 for my next mod anyways.
 
So, since they purchased the deluxe edition, they have a right to use Babylon as long as the mod author didn't change which civs were in the game with the mod.

What are you talking about? You don't have a *right* to use anything in a mod that some mod-maker works on to provide for you free.

Your sense of entitlement is disturbing.
 
What are you talking about? You don't have a *right* to use anything in a mod that some mod-maker works on to provide for you free.

Your sense of entitlement is disturbing.
Civ is heavilly marketed on its modability and the wide range of mods available for past games (all created for free by fans). Perhaps there should be a sense of entitlement. Not towards the modders, but towards the devs and publisher. This game has been marketed as being even more modable than Civ4. So nothing should stand in the way of the users gaining access to mods; and nothing should limit modders from distributing their mods... not even DLC or pre-release special edition material.


I think you read wrongly that quote you replied to. Or I read your reply wrong.
Either way I don't understand your reply in context to that quote.
 
Anyone who created mods aimed only at a Deluxe edition would be an idiot.

You may end up eating your words.

How are you to know the best mod for civ5 will not be based on the deluxe edition?
 
Ugh. DLC only encourages developers to sell unfinished games and put more content outside of the original purchase in order to squeeze maximum profit. Paid DLC is shafting the gaming community as a collective. This practice only enriches the developers by parcelling out what should have been originally on the disc (or purchase).

For instance, IIRC, there was a game on the 360 that actually had the "DLC" on the physical, original disc that was not downloaded, but unlocked by the purchase of DLC.

Honestly, we had expansions before the advent of DLC and this practice was fine, at least IMO. DLC is a move in the wrong direction. However, it seems unlikely that any one can change anything about this move.
 
That would be Bioshock 2, released by none other than 2K Games.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3178326

There's a statement by Elizabeth doing some damage control too, for what it's worth.
Bah! Its not even DLC at that point, its already on the disc. It shipped with the game. This was recent. More evidence pointing towards 2k shareholders trying to squeeze all they can out of you. No matter if they squeeze a franchise like Civ to death.

2K Elizabeth says they put the DLC on the disk so as not to split the MP community. Sounds good on the surface... if true. 2k promises more DLC for Bioshock 2 in the future. So either that stuff is already on the disc, or that statement is false and was made to placate the fans. If the stuff is already on the disc, then that means they did all this work in the normal development cycle. I suppose they could have hired more talent so as not to take too much away from the core games development; but for some reason I don't trust that they did.

There was talk here at CFC at how some folks thought that 2k fragmented Civ4 into expansion packs from day one. That would be bad enough. But designing an entire game around the market for piece meal microtransactions is baaaaaaad. Dang the shareholders who gobble up small business and then squeeze them to death for an immediate unsustainable profit.
 
Civ is heavilly marketed on its modability and the wide range of mods available for past games (all created for free by fans). Perhaps there should be a sense of entitlement. Not towards the modders, but towards the devs and publisher. This game has been marketed as being even more modable than Civ4. So nothing should stand in the way of the users gaining access to mods; and nothing should limit modders from distributing their mods... not even DLC or pre-release special edition material.

I think you read wrongly that quote you replied to. Or I read your reply wrong.
Either way I don't understand your reply in context to that quote.

You said that you feel entitled to use an extra bonus feature you purchase from Firaxis/2K in a fan-created mod.
You are entitled to no such thing.

If I make a mod that doesn't have Babylon, then it doesn't have Babylon - even if you bought the Deluxe edition.

You aren't entitled to any content in fan mods at all. If you buy the deluxe Babylon, you're entitled to use that in the base game. That's it.
You may end up eating your words.

How are you to know the best mod for civ5 will not be based on the deluxe edition?

I think I am far less likely to need to eat words than those spouting doom and gloom, and declaring that modding will be fractured because they happened to provide some bonus content.

It is entirely possible that Babylon/maps will be the only bonus content released.
It is entirely possible that the Bablyon/maps will be in the same kind of XML as any other content, and so could be copy-pasted into any mod at will.
It is entirely possible that the Babylon/maps will be distributed free in a patch or in the first expansion.

The whining about the Deluxe edition is bizarre. If you accept the premise that it can be nice to have a deluxe edition for more money, then said deluxe edition has to either
a) have only useless content, which would make people complain or
b) have some interesting content, which still seems to be making people complain
If they had never made a 19th civ and a few maps, people would still be perfectly happy with the core game. Its bizarre that then the existence of something extra makes people less happy with what they'll get

And I'll stand by my statement; the only way that people will create mods intended for wide distribution is if the mod is compatible. 95% of people are not going to get the Deluxe edition. So the only way smart modders will include deluxe content in their mod is if they do so in a way that is still compatible with the base game.
So in either case; no problem.

There's either no compatability issue, or there's a small issue but modders still code for the main game.
 
It's not just the mod compatibility issues that can divide a community. By the way, I don't think I've ever implied the divide would be great or even that the net effect of civ5's features would be to divide the community. I did say however that this particular thing - there being a deluxe edition and standard edition where the DE is not available after release, is less likely to bring people together than it is to divide people, and that overall the bringing together of the community will come from other things - perhaps even the Steamworks features. :lol: Ugh, I' feel dirty like a politician.

By the way, how do you know Take2 will not eventually offer the DE as a $10 upgrade to the standard edition or something similar? On almost all measures this would be a smart business move somewhere down the track. Anyway, you and I can talk all we like about what 'could' happen - there's little point. I just thought it harsh to already be calling people idiots based on your own assumptions of how the next few years will play out.
 
It's not just the mod compatibility issues that can divide a community.
How else is the community going to be divided by the ability to play Babylon, or not, or the ability to play particular Fertile Crescent Scenarios?
We're still going to be playing the same game.

By the way, I don't think I've ever implied the divide would be great or even that the net effect of civ5's features would be to divide the community.
I don't place you in said group of whiners :)
Apologies for making it seem that I did.

I just thought it harsh to already be calling people idiots
The only people I called idiots were the hypothetical modders who deliberately design their mods to be incompatible with the base version of Civ. And I noted that I believe said idiots do not exist.
 
I am amazed that you find the absence of evidence to be equivalent to support for crackpot theories.
One can disagree without disrespecting a person for having an opinion.

My "crackpot theories" are not theories at all. Since the object of this thread initially was a poll on whether DLC will cause you to buy or not buy the game, my original comments were simply an expression of things that concerned me about the distribution model, and how any possible DLC could open a can of worms. My comments were questioned, and I tried to explain them in a suitable discussion-like way, the reasons that I feel the way that I do.

One would think that I had publicly criticized a well known, "celebrity based cult/religion", judging by the reaction to my posts.

So, I guess I'm a crackpot for thinking that I might possibly wind up being taken advantage of by an aggressive sales department. I outlined possibilities, not absolutes, and it happened to be a "What if?" that I was thinking about at the time. The fact is that none of us know what the final release will look like, and nobody knows what kind of modding system it will have. No one really knows anything at this point. I'm adopting a wait and see attitude right now. I am wary at the moment, because I've become quite distrustful of most of the marketing machine that promises much, and delivers little in final outcome.

I'm sorry that the way I feel upsets the apple cart of the Steam fans/employees/shareholders in this thread. I will say no more on the subject publicly, except to make a promise. If I am wrong about my suspicions, and everything turns out rosy, I will post in the Civ5 forum when the game is released (and I am satisfied that there are no hidden "gotcha's"), and I will state unequivocally that my fears were unfounded, and that I was in error.

Some of you can sit around in a circle, singing "Kum bah ya", and sharing group hugs and warm fuzzies about how impossible it is that an entity designed solely to make money, couldn't possibly try to maximize profit by using creative distribution methods and hyperbole. Everybody will screw anybody over for a percentage, the difference is only what our individual prices are. The sad thing is that big business seems to be slashing those prices lately, if you bother to look around. Is it a wonder that some of us are just a little wary?

I have better things to do than argue this any further.

</Lemon>
 
How else is the community going to be divided by the ability to play Babylon, or not, or the ability to play particular Fertile Crescent Scenarios?
We're still going to be playing the same game.
"Why can't I play Babylon?"

"Cos you didn't buy the deluxe edition. I did. Sorry bout that, but hopefully you feel like we have a better relationship now."

"Yeah, I'm not annoyed at all. In fact I'm grateful you have the opportunity to play the special civ. I'm really glad we had this discussion."

<Sorry, I'm really only having fun - dont' take me too seriously>

I don't place you in said group of whiners :)
Apologies for making it seem that I did.


The only people I called idiots were the hypothetical modders who deliberately design their mods to be incompatible with the base version of Civ. And I noted that I believe said idiots do not exist.


Ok. So we're calling people who don't exist idiots. :) Nothing wrong with that.
 
One can disagree without disrespecting a person for having an opinion.

My "crackpot theories" are not theories at all.

I have no problem with saying "hypothetically, if they did X I wouldn't like it".

But when these hypothetical scenarios start getting treated as established fact, and when people get all worked in a lather about something that isn't real, thats what gets bizarre.

So, theories that:
a) Firaxis/2K are going to stop you from making mods that they don't like
b) Firaxis/2K are going to release a long string of content DLC, none of which will be compatible with each other or with any mods
c) The lack of any evidence for a) and b) means that they are probably going to do this.

are, yes, crackpot.

I'm adopting a wait and see attitude right now.
If people adopted a wait and see attitutde, that would be fine. But many people (deanej) aren't adopting a wait and see attitude, they're adopting a "the sky is falling" attitude prematurely.

Everybody will screw anybody over for a percentage, the difference is only what our individual prices are.
I think that is a sad way to look at the world.
 
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