Crime & Punishment

Organized crime certainly goes back much farther than that into thieving guilds, bandit organizations, political/economical cults (don't laugh, La Cosa Nostra itself is just a warrior arm of the Catholic Church in its roots) and such too. Not to undermine what you aptly pointed out about how pivotal and deeply impacting Prohibition was, however. Some good insights there.

I've been thinking, of down the road, some 'anti-corporations' to represent organized crime And yeah, I'm not sure how but most certainly would see 'prohibition' as a definitive historical point to develop along those lines.

Thunderbrd said:

Organized crime certainly goes back much farther than that into thieving guilds, bandit organizations, political/economical cults (don't laugh, La Cosa Nostra itself is just a warrior arm of the Catholic Church in its roots) and such too. Not to undermine what you aptly pointed out about how pivotal and deeply impacting Prohibition was, however. Some good insights there.

I've been thinking, of down the road, some 'anti-corporations' to represent organized crime And yeah, I'm not sure how but most certainly would see 'prohibition' as a definitive historical point to develop along those lines.

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The Assassin's Den for instance was made to be around when the Assassin's unit comes available. Note this is what eventually was made instead of a "Thieves Guild". Pretty much all the buildings were made with a unit in mind. However not all the units have been made such as the Smuggler and Pirate.

Would it also be possible to have anti-corporations for terrorist movements, with links to the Revolutions mechanic and religion? I believe White Lies Black Ops had something of a similar sort, but with different mechanics for it. These organizations could have much deadlier random events, like destroying your wonders, even SADMing your cities, assassinating your leaders (skyrocketing instability and possibly leading to temporary anarchy) and being, on the flip side, potentially a good thing if you follow their same brand of extremism.

I agree that for now what we have suffices thus its not a matter high on the agenda for me Hydro. You've done well to fill the gap.

And yeah, Terrorist groups and organizations would certainly fall under that same game mechanic I'd think Praetyre... good thinking!

Praetyre said:

Would it also be possible to have anti-corporations for terrorist movements, with links to the Revolutions mechanic and religion? I believe White Lies Black Ops had something of a similar sort, but with different mechanics for it. These organizations could have much deadlier random events, like destroying your wonders, even SADMing your cities, assassinating your leaders (skyrocketing instability and possibly leading to temporary anarchy) and being, on the flip side, potentially a good thing if you follow their same brand of extremism.

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Liberating stuff from WLBO is getting higher on my list. However I don't want to keep it to myself if others want to take it on.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Liberating stuff from WLBO is getting higher on my list. However I don't want to keep it to myself if others want to take it on.

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I think WLBO is cool, so I support whomever takes on the task of converting it for C2C (not me )

I find a major difference between organized crime and crime with some level of organization. Its a matter of scale. Before the 1920's cro,e would have been concidered (now) as small time and if any particular group spanned more than a major population center its was likely someone government organization.

Basically street gang level groups (ignore the Bloods and the Crypts... they are major.). Part of this a matter of travel times and speed of communication... part of it was egos. Part of it was that outside of a few major exceptions the size of a kingdom or empire was basically puny. Before Columbus there was only a few dozen Empires of note (girth wise) in history.

What the 1920's crime boom allowed was in a decade or three to have crime based governments... multinational ones. Effectively colonial empires of crime. Again only a few dozen of these have popped up.

The problem with most terrorist groups is they are franchized or reverse franchised. They often get funding for taking a particular name. They are rather tribal in their level of organization. The groups are sharing names and mostly causes but aren't really the same group. They want name recognition.... and they'll take another groups if it help promote them. This is a large part of the issue with rooting out any particular terrorist group... the regional cells often have little to do with each other... though a centralized groups may handle intercell communication.

The difference between mafia like crime groups and terrorist cells is that basically, instead of each city they are in being branches of a tree (a reason they sometimes are refered to as families reguardless of blood relations)... terrorists are like seedlings from the same tree... or runners like crabgrass. Severing the connections or smashing any single group doesn't do much to stop the largely independant plants.

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Also, your going to need national level crime groups before hand. Some of the Criminal coorporations need to to have a root cause before it spreads.

Most crime buildings add REV local instability, and anti-crime buldings visa versa. However, this is inconsistent. For example the police station has no effect on REV (local) instability. I think it should (and generally most things that adjust crime should probably also adjust local instability I think).

I don't think the crime system is working as it is. While driving I had an idea based on this implementation and discussions on other threads.

What if we had a crime property on buildings that give you "Bad People" points almost like Great People. Then when you have enough points a bad person, see mod of same name, is born. This bad person is not under your control. S/he can build a crime building, also not under your control. Or they may move to a city with better opportunities. The buildings increase the crime rate and suck money out of the economy. They may even cause unhappiness.

Anti-crime buildings reduce the crime rate (number or BP points generated) and allow you to build a "Police Agent" who can remove or down grade a crime building.

This would require much AI work as well as consideration of what the crime rate buildings may have and the sort of crime buildings we want.

@Dancing Hoskuld

Ori has not implemented it yet. Not much I can do on my end yet since I do not know how to program events.

Note that Ori said flammability is "working" but I have not seen it do much. Fire Events still seem a bit random to me.

Hydromancerx said:

@Dancing Hoskuld

Ori has not implemented it yet. Not much I can do on my end yet since I do not know how to program events.

Note that Ori said flammability is "working" but I have not seen it do much. Fire Events still seem a bit random to me.

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I have seen flamability events, but they only trigger at really quite high flamability levels. It may need tweaking to make things a bit more unforegiving

I talked to Ori and he said he will be back to work on Crime and Flammability by March. He is busy at the moment.

Requested by strategyonly.

Forgot about this thread also, thx.

I believe there ought to be a unit, like a "spy" with items like a spy that what you can do to better the crime rate, or go to court, and take your chances etc stuff like that.

EDIT: OK i lowered the crime down quite a bit and at least now can have the Banditry Hideout able to be built, YEAH!

Well how about this. You have some sort of Anti-crime non-combat unit (like the Detective you mentioned) that can build a building that replaces the crime? Or at least can build a special building that reducescrime? I guess it would be like a "Great Detective" or something.

We could even have crime/anti-crime wonders that increase the chance of a "Great Detective". Likewise you could always have the opposite with a "Great Criminal".

WimpyTheWarrior said:

So all views are presented, I think the game plays better with less early thiefs and rogues. I appreciate their early value, but honestly aren't they really being used as "Early scouts that can survive the wilderness?" Rogues in particular are awesome scouts. But is that what they're supposed to be?

I feel auxillary units (thiefs, hunters, healers, scouts) should be just that; secondary to the main army of slingers and axemen. IMO that's a more accurate representation of what the ancient armies consisted of. It sort of bugs me that the AI uses hunters as the main assault units.

I'm not too far along my new game with crime from the start, but on the weekend I should get the time. I am curious how it plays, but I would like the game with armies of more core units.
Just my 2 cents worth...

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This was from the other thread, so i just put it here.

But we could always use something like DH is using for his sea animals, whereas they wont reveal any land/fog, or cant???

Hydromancerx said:

I was aware of this, however I am not sure what to do. I was going to reduce the palace crime but then it would mean your capital would start out with big crime and thus un-balance things.

DH wanted such buildings directly linked to the crime rate but instead I made it just require different crimes. Like AIAndy said Mugging is at min +275 crime which is mid to low crime. However you can never get that in your capital in early game thanks to the Palace.

By the time you could get high crime there then the Thief would be obsolete. The question is then do we want to not require Mugging for the Bandit's Hideout? Or do we want to reduce the Palace's anti-Crime?

Personally I do not know what to do. I suspect DH will get mad because the Bandit's Hideout is not linked to a Crime value anymore. JosEPh_II will get mad if any anti-crime buildings are reduced since that means even higher crime.

What do you think I should do?

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Hydromancerx said:

Well its unlocking a Bandit's Hideout, which not only makes Thieves but Rogues too.

At +200 Crime there is Pickpocketing but that's only 75 less than Mugging. Then there is also Burglary, Car Theft, etc that "Thieves" could do but they are even higher than Mugging.

I originally wanted to put it at Gangs but that's all the way up at +500.

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Hydromancerx said:

BlueGenie said:

Can't you set Rogues to require Bandit's Hideout AND Crime (PickPocketing)?

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Can units require more than one building? I forget if the code was added for units. However since Pickpocketing comes before Mugging what would be the point?

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Hydromancerx said:

Well so far in my testing i go from say 100% science in ancient to 50% at the beginning of classical. Its hard to me to tell if its the crime or my difficulty since I uped it one notch this game. In all my cities my crime ranges from say +50 to +150 so I am guessing that's a good sign for the crime per population drop to +3.

Right now the only crimes I get are Soliciting, Forgery and Counterfeiting. Most of which drain my gold but my cities are pretty good in happiness. I am unhealthy in my largest cities but i suspect i can counter that soon with Ancient Medicine.

As for where I am in the pack I am smack dab in the middle. France is the main leader and is like around 4 times as powerful as me. The rest are around my strength except for 1 or 2 barb emerged civs which are around 4 times as weak as me. I am not sure if there are more for me to meet. I suspect so since France blocked my way to see the rest of the land.

How is everyone else doing with the new crime stuff?

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Hydromancerx said:

WimpyTheWarrior said:

Just started a new game w/ SVN 2106. Early days still, nothing meaningful to report yet, but is there something you'd like me (and other test lab rats) to be observant for?

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Yes I do. Please try to report back on the following ....

1. The amount of crime you have on average.

2. How your crime is over time (such as when you reach each era).

3. If you are having money troubles or excess money.

4. If you are having happiness trouble or excess.

5. If you are having health troubles or excess.

6. If you are having revolutions troubles now that there is crime.

7. If anything confuses you about the new crime system.

Please try to answer those and your gaming settings (ex. Map Size, Speed, Difficulty, Map Type, Civilization, Leader, etc.) Also what civics were you running when you ran into a problem.

Detailed info is key to getting a more balanced game. Thanks!

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Moved to this thread.

The "point" would be that thieves get a lesser Crime Building enabling them while Rogues get a higher one, that's why an earlier Crime (Thievery) for Thieves and the later Crime (PickPocket) for Rogues, and the Bandit's Hideout coming at Crime (Thievery) of course, otherwise there would be no point.

Cheers

Hydromancerx said:

Well how about this. You have some sort of Anti-crime non-combat unit (like the Detective you mentioned) that can build a building that replaces the crime? Or at least can build a special building that reducescrime? I guess it would be like a "Great Detective" or something.

We could even have crime/anti-crime wonders that increase the chance of a "Great Detective". Likewise you could always have the opposite with a "Great Criminal".

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One option for the Great Detective would be to give him an ability that he can use every x turns which does reduces crime in the city he is in at that moment by a good amount.

Mechanic wise that could be done by giving outcome missions the possibility to add a certain amount of properties to the city on use (negative crime in this case). In addition there would be a cost in properties for the mission (a special ability property for which the unit has a limited source).

And the other way too, with certain criminal units, have a mission to increase crime in a plot, for instance when in opponents area. Is an idea.

Cheers