SGOTM 13 - TNT thread

i cant realy find the right one.. but Bug mod has built in overflow help. it shows how much overflow u get if u whip this turn. the best is to simply try to do it in the game. (if u manage to do 40+ hammer overflow, with building either a Worker or settler, the u got the hang of it)
whiping, and overflow is kinda my speciality.. u can count on me giving instructions on this, for all the MM. but this is why i prefer the SIP start. (2 cites swaping the food to use it for whiping)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=351585

gold from overflow bug is fixed

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=411838
 
Could you post the url?
SIP compared to PH with both cities size 6 and having mined tiles, farmed corn and lh, (granary?):

SIP - raw food/production/commerce - 23f/8p/7c - working clamsx3, farmed corn, mined PH and island mined grass hill. (assuming a worker ferried to island.) excess food - 11 excess food/turn = 11f/8p/7c

PH - 21f/9p/5c -working clamx2, farmed corn, mined ghx2, grass forest. = 9f/9p/5c

Therefore - plus 2 food and 2 commerce for SIP but -1 hammer.

The PH start actually gets all those f/p/c. The SIP has to switch it with Orleans quite often. (Unless we somehow play a SIP and settle next city off the island, but I don't think anyone is advocating that.) Please remember that with SPH we will still be using the 3rd clam, just not in the capital.
 
The PH start actually gets all those f/p/c. The SIP has to switch it with Orleans quite often. (Unless we somehow play a SIP and settle next city off the island, but I don't think anyone is advocating that.) Please remember that with SPH we will still be using the 3rd clam, just not in the capital.

True, but with the whip in hand, Orleans on the island could make use of those nice clams for growth when they are available.

New Orleans on the island - 1f/3h from mined gh, 2f/1p/1c city centre and 2f/1p from the forest grass plus there's a useable fogged tile which might even be a good second city choice available with either city. The warrior move on turn 2 will reveal any bonuses and wouldn't that be nice?

Even the 4p mined PH would be available to Orleans once in awhile while Paris grows using the food tiles. Say Paris is pop3 working two clams and corn, then Orleans can work PH, clam, gh, gf for some nice production/growth -- raw 10f/9p/3c plus whatever we find workable in the fog, a fg would make 12f/10p/3c at pop5.

With a library in Orleans, when Paris has grown to use all the food and PH tiles, Orleans can hire some scientists. I know this is a ways down the road, but thinking about it now might help us with this current decision about settling Paris.
 
Obviously the SIP capital will "score better" since it has one more resource, but as dima said, the last clam will be used by another city or two. As I mensioned before, I would like to put a third city (with the SPH start) that shares one clam with Paris and one with Orleans (unless we find better spots out there). It is my opinion that the tests have proven that the SPH gives a stronger start at turn 71 and with a higher growth rate, hence it will continue to pull ahead over the next 100 turns.

I actually have real problems seeing why you would prefer SIP to SPH. Do you not agree that the SPH give a faster (=better) start in terms of expansion? Or is it that you think SIP has a better long term potensial even if it is a bit slower to begin with? As already stated, I think we have proven SPH gives a faster start. And I also think it is better in the long run. Both positions will share the food whenever they can. SIP gives us the possibility to concentrate more food to Paris than SPH will. But the SPH capital will get enough food to use the whip as often as possible - the limiting factor will be happiness. Hence leaving one clam behind to be shared by other cities instead of by Paris, is no loss in general. The only situation it would be better to give all food to Paris is if we put Globe there. But even so, that is not enough to make up for the faster start SPH will give us (at turn 71 the difference is not much, but the difference will grow to a lot more over the next 100 turns). Additionally, on Archi maps there are often many sites with lots of food. Maybe we will find an even better place for the Globe?

-jj-
 
There are definitely some reasons to prefer SIP.
*A GP farm does eventually have use for 4 food tiles.
*We have great early game GP production from both Paris and Orleans. Liberalism date with SIP is probably ~5 turns faster.

The strength of whipping in SPH vs. SIP is very difficult to judge. Trading growing cities is occasionally a strong whipping strategy, but I suspect that we will not be wasting food tiles with SPH, and our 2nd city is more likely to obtain more food tiles if it's off the island. We really only have a fixed number of tiles to work -- as long as we are always using all the food tiles, it doesn't matter as much which cities are using them. (Besides obvious requirements, like those cities having granaries.)

This doesn't change my mind about SPH being the firmly better decision, but I don't think it's a huge loss. I am ready to help provide optimal play in any variant :).

There is a lot of wisdom here, and I appreciate it. For those of you standing back, I really encourage you to go ahead and play through some strategies and see the results. This is what makes SGOTM's so useful to learning! I have gone from a barely Emperor to a somewhat sub-Deity player through these forums, and it's not a matter of magic!
 
@jj - I am not championing a SIP start. I just want to make sure that we are all on the same page with our first key decision.

dima42 said:
There is a lot of wisdom here, and I appreciate it. For those of you standing back, I really encourage you to go ahead and play through some strategies and see the results. This is what makes SGOTM's so useful to learning! I have gone from a barely Emperor to a somewhat sub-Deity player through these forums, and it's not a matter of magic!
@dima - well said! :cool:

Could we hear from everyone about SIP or SPH? Also, I have a tentative roster. When you post your thoughts or vote for the city placement, you can also comment on this roster.

1. City placement - 2 choices:

SIP = Settle in place
SPH = Settle plains hill on turn 2

2.The (tentative) Roster:

keath
Windfury
fizbankovi
enKage
justjohn
bjartu
trucha
the Dude Esq
2metraninja
dima42
cottagechris


3. Should turnsets be guided by a fixed number of turns or convenience, like the turn before a build? I think we can start with 20 - 10 - 10... turns/set and be flexible as we go. Comments?

4. Do we go with in game city names or start with Elba and allow new cities to be named by the player founding the city?

ps @AlanH - nice going on changing TNT to TNT Thank you! :D
 
1. SPH, as explained earlier in this thread.

2. Regarding the roster, I think you need to space
a. experience
b. enthusiasm

In light of this, I recommend splitting up metraninja and I, and possibly moving some of the recent active contributors further down the list. We should keep in mind that a number of our players are new to the forums, and so are more likely to drop out; fortunately, a team can usually sustain itself with as few as 3-4 committed folks (kossin and Duckweed played the last Plastic Ducks' game basically with the two of them) and it sounds like we have that.

3. I think organic turnsets are better. Have a hard cap, but players should feel free to stop before that at a reasonable decision point. I think the hard cap can be up to 40-50 turns for the first turnset (this is a really boring start!) and probably on the order of 15-20 turns after that. If we do go with a specified turn length, I'd go for something like 40-20-10-10-10. Also, war turnsets should be shorter.

4. Don't care. I guess it would be kind of cool to start with Elba.
 
You're right, dima, valid points. I apologize if my last post sounded a bit harsh, but I just want to learn, me too.

I decided to general several random starts of the kind we're playing to see what we can expect to find. Four-food non-capital sites are indeed very rare, but there seems to be a good number of three-food sites. Some of them even have three Fish, which would give the same amount of food as 4 clam/crab/non-irrigated corn (like the one we have).

As far as capital sites go, there are many with more food than we have here. I found several six-food starts (one had 4 fish, 1 clam, 1 corn!). Obviously, we don't know what will be available to us in SGOTM 13, but I thought it was worth investigating a bit.

Over to Keath's questions:

1. SPH (I still prefer this)

2. No commets actually.

3. I agree with dima here. As far as the first turnset goes, I think we can make the first one quite long, unless we find something that will change the tests we all have made. (Like an extra resource - I guess this matters most in the SPH start were there are still 2 unfogged tiles.)

4. Don't care, and not opposed to any decision.

-jj-
 
I just noticed the following:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=408844

This explain why we're given the game we have. We already know he wen with the two most popular choices (emperor and conquest, he even added domination as a possibility), so maybe we'll also see a "Heavily customized map".

Let me make that clearer. The game description says the AIs will have "rather more land" available. In the beginning I thought that they might even have some kind of continent start (to resemble Europe). But he also says that "this is a difficult map for warring", and one continent with most the AI would make warfare easier than everyone on its own island. So next I thought maybe he has just added a little more land to each AIs starting island. After findind the above thread, I'm not so sure again, though I still think it is doubtful that many AIs share the same island.

-jj-
 
the only reason im talking about SIP still is of course becouse of the long term uses as a GP Farm, and a Globe theater Draft, or whip city.
 
From the Description page:

Level: Notionally Emperor, but this is a difficult map for warring.
Map: You start surrounded by tiny islands (you are after all in exile). Your European opponents have rather more land available.
Options: Vassals are disabled.
Victory Conditions: All enabled (for the AIs).
World Wrap: Cyclindrical.
Speed: Epic
Opponents: 6 European AIs.
Special Map Features: To avoid the game turning into a great-lighthouse-rush, one of your opponents has been pre-settled and already owns a lighthouse and the great lighthouse.

Note that although the real-life Napoleon was exiled in 1814 AD, this game is a standard 4000BC start in all aspects other than the heavily modified map. Also, your opponents aren't exactly the countries of the sixth coalition - DS admits he took a bit of artistic license!

Bold face added to emphasize the reality of either an historical European continent for the other AIs or this:

From Pre-game discussion post#6 here
The game speed will be epic.

More info about the map? I wouldn't want to spoil the surprise ;)

,,,,,,,

Very interesting.....:think:
 
@Keath: ah, so also the "heavily modified map" is part of the description - forgot it was there.

From the actual save (Setting page), we can see that the map is indeed an Archipelago map with medium sea level. I believe we can expect a typical Archi map around our starting position (so our initial planning is still valid), but further away things might be very different. We just have to adapt when that time comes, and hence it is preferable to have a flexibel strategy.
 
ass soon as we settle we will know how much % of the world is land... and can make good predictions. also from the land info on the demo page we will know if any of our oponents are land locked or not...
 
1. SIP, but im ok with SPH too

2. No commets

3. sounds good, lets start!

4. lets start with Elbaninja and name the cites late according there role in the game
 
Keath, may I suggest that you add a deadline for people to give feedback to the starting sequence, vote for settling place and answer your questions in general? I agree with fiz that it's time that we get started. I can feel the itching in my fingers :p

-jj-
 
1. Seems like the SPH is the best overall so let's do that.
2. I'm fine to go after you Keath I'll try not to screw up the plan.
3. Yea I think we should start with a slightly longer first set of turns
4. Elba is fine to start with, but I much prefer the default names in general.
 
You are right, jj, I think everyone is itchin' to get started. People should state their preferences by Friday, 9:00 am PST, noon EST, 17:00 GMT. The game will start soon after.

If you don't or can't post by then, I'll put your name at the end of the roster, just in case you are unable to meet this deadline for some reason. If you have changed your mind and can't participate, please let us know. You can always be a dedicated lurker and offer comments as we play.

I'd actually like to allow first time players to get a chance with a short turnset near the beginning. With the great analysis that has been done, it is really just a matter of following the moves in justjohn's text file in post #143 and writing up a turn report. If that is an appealing idea, I'd play a short turnset and pass it on to Windfury and so on.

If you are a first time player and would like to play some of these early moves, please state that, too. It's a perfect chance to get a feel for the saddle and then when it heats up during a later turnset you will be familiar with the mechanics. This turnset won't be nearly as intimidating as stepping into a war zone immediately.

@dima42 -- Is that what you had in mind by:
and possibly moving some of the recent active contributors further down the list.
 
@Keath: ah, so also the "heavily modified map" is part of the description - forgot it was there.

From the actual save (Setting page), we can see that the map is indeed an Archipelago map with medium sea level. I believe we can expect a typical Archi map around our starting position (so our initial planning is still valid), but further away things might be very different. We just have to adapt when that time comes, and hence it is preferable to have a flexibel strategy.

Actually, Big and Small with tiny isolated islands works, too. That way there is a large starting continent (Europe) and 'a heavily modified map' could spell isolation until Astronomy.

There is quite a lot of discussion about the use of test maps here
Edit: further map discussion here.
 
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