The AI Strikes Back

dreadknought

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DOCTOR WHO 2005
Ok this is a thread for those people who wont to add a better AI driven opp. to their games. If you dont wont a serious challenge and simple wont to bash the computer to death then stop here.
This in a nut-shell explains the use of larger armies by the computer. You will need to add the ability to make armies without leaders to several wonders (you choose which) or as some as suggested add this to your palace. Then allow up to 10 units to stack into armies. Heres why.

1.0 The computer will attack you better and smarter. The AI tends to attack with units that one on one you have the advantage over with defense bonuses-artillery plus you are better organized. However in armies the AI actually negates this to a large degree. For example I recently saw the AI attack with an army of 10 fanatics (DYP MOD) and you might say so what. Well with a defense of 1 normally they wouldnt last but in a army they get to get their att6 shots in and retreat to the next unit as they are damaged.Hmm all of a sudden this is a formidable foe as they have alot of attack strengh and the defense of an army unit.

2.0 the AI USES this as well as you maybe better. In testing the AI will always retreat with a large army after its hit points get low enough which preserves its strengh. You can chase the army to destroy it but if you are being attacked by more than 1 army you will often be tied down and the damaged army will retreat and heal and attack again. Thus the AIS units are much more difficult to completely kill off.

3.0 Since the army counts as 1 unit on transport it is easier to see larger attacks with much less loading and unloading of units.

4.0 Less moves for the AI and you gives you overall quicker games. IF the AI has 50 units to move it will take up some time but if the AI has 5 armies to move 1 turn each thats just 5 moves you have to wait through.

5.0
More realistic in a historic sense. Great battles are normally fought with large armies with many divisions facing off that can retreat and charge and support each other. An AI 10 unit division better represents what real combat is like as rarely do you see entire armies completely wiped out without retreating though there are exceptions to this when a civ is really over matched and you can destrory AI armies its just harder.
6.0 More decisive results in combat. In general you will see less upsets like spearman beating tanks if armies fight each other as the better units will tend to win over a 10 unit spread from a numbers standpoint.

7.0 A better victory overall. There is a cooler feeling beating a nice large AI army and a lower low seeing one of your armies defeated.

8.0 The big advantage you have using artillery is reduced alot against AI armies as they can absorb this better.

A couple points I would suggest. Always give the AI 20 free units in the difficulty settings so that even a small civ can defend itself but tone downthe free units per city per govt settings. In general have the AI build growth-trade-production-culture as its main builds as it will play better and build more productive cities. I am also considering giving armies a defensive bombard to simulate artillery within the army itself but havnt tested this yet. I know this is not everyone as I have been told that this is just too scary for some of you . I had one person who told me that he was afraid of the large AI armies and couldnt deal with it so try this only if you can take the extra stress....................dread
 
Cool thinking.
I was thinking of attaching the ability to build armies to the barracks improvement.
If I double the cost of a barracks this should be about right for the mod you are suggesting.
My buddy reckons this will cause the AI to constantly build armies which will unbalance the game, but when the cost of building an army is considered, this is doubtful.
I'll try this tomorrow.
 
Sounds great and post back on how you like it. Yes it does unbalance the game to the AIS favor but thats the whole point. It helps to ofset our better use of artillery and better planning.:goodjob:
 
hmm, dreadknought, could use some paragraph spacing next time? please :)
 
Originally posted by alva848
hmm, dreadknought, could use some paragraph spacing next time? please :)

I was thinking the exact same thing! Right now I have letters and words dancing in front of my eyes... ;)

Why would you want to change the leaders and armies thing? I think it works fine the way it is. If you want more challenge, just move up one level...
 
I somehow suspect that human players will learn to use Armies more effectively than the AI, and the AI'll be gettin' thrashed anyway.

And how are Armies better at absorbing bombardment than individual units? Indeed, one of my standard tactics to deal with AI armies are to bombard 'em down to one HP with Arty and then run over them with a single Cav/Tank/MA. Sure, they'll have three times as many HP to knock off with your proposal, but OTOH then I'm sure to have plenty Armies of my own, so I has less need to reduce it's HP so sharply.

And, BTW, what is a Fanatic unit? A Defense of one don't sound much like the Civ2 Fanatics*, at any rate.

* For you young'uns, the Civ2 Fanatic was an 4/4/1 unit that cost half the cost of a 5/4/1 Rifleman, but could only be built under the Fundamentalist gov't. It didn't require any support under Fundamentalism either.
 
Originally posted by Darkness


I was thinking the exact same thing! Right now I have letters and words dancing in front of my eyes... ;)

Why would you want to change the leaders and armies thing? I think it works fine the way it is. If you want more challenge, just move up one level...
The fix is in and like I said this is not for everyone......dread
 
Originally posted by The Last Conformist
I somehow suspect that human players will learn to use Armies more effectively than the AI, and the AI'll be gettin' thrashed anyway.

And how are Armies better at absorbing bombardment than individual units? Indeed, one of my standard tactics to deal with AI armies are to bombard 'em down to one HP with Arty and then run over them with a single Cav/Tank/MA. Sure, they'll have three times as many HP to knock off with your proposal, but OTOH then I'm sure to have plenty Armies of my own, so I has less need to reduce it's HP so sharply.

And, BTW, what is a Fanatic unit? A Defense of one don't sound much like the Civ2 Fanatics*, at any rate.

* For you young'uns, the Civ2 Fanatic was an 4/4/1 unit that cost half the cost of a 5/4/1 Rifleman, but could only be built under the Fundamentalist gov't. It didn't require any support under Fundamentalism either.
Yes well the human army is less helpful because it actually limits the movement of your fast units so its doubtful to be used as much by human players and if you do then you will face an even foe. It would take a huge amount of artillery to disable an army before it can attack you and would be a rather large commitment to artillery which would limit your offensive forces. The fanatic is a new (dyp mod) add on I use. Of course the other thing that helps this all work is that I give AI extra free units while I limit my own somewhat. Thanx for your comments though and I understand that not all people will try this............dread
 
Well, if the AI puts its units in Armies, it'll actually get sightly less HPs for its shields, so I can't see how bombarding it's attacking forces out of effectiveness can be made that much harder by your proposal. And seeing that the AI tends to retreat with it Armies when they get hurt, stopping the AI from attacking at all might be even easier with it.

Now, I don't know what porportion of units the AI will put in Armies if they're easily available and take ten units each. It's certainly possible that it achieves an more efficient mix for its offensive forces.

But I might test this out someday I got alot of free time. I'm playing way too little Civ these days ...

BTW, what are the stats of those DYP Fanatics, and what do they require.
 
Originally posted by The Last Conformist

BTW, what are the stats of those DYP Fanatics, and what do they require.

The DYP Fanatic is 6/1/1 and requires no resources. The AI builds them like crazy, but they're very easy to destroy as it is: they're too slow to run:D and practically defenseless.

It's true that they might be useful in a large army, though.

Good thinking in all, dreadknought, I'll probably try this...:goodjob:
 
Originally posted by dreadknought

3.0 Since the army counts as 1 unit on transport it is easier to see larger attacks with much less loading and unloading of units.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the army take up one unit of space and each unit also take up one space, so armies with a lot of units in them wouldn't be able to be transported at all, you'd have to load units into armies when you arrived on the landing point, and that'd fuddle the AI. :hmm:
 
I think the army leader counts as an extra unit, so 3 units and a GL would be the same as a 3 unit army. Too big for a galley, but it would fit in a Caravel.
 
Dradknought mentions armies with ten units in them. Even the modern transport only has 8 spaces. I suppose you could modify that though...
 
Originally posted by cymru_man


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the army take up one unit of space and each unit also take up one space, so armies with a lot of units in them wouldn't be able to be transported at all, you'd have to load units into armies when you arrived on the landing point, and that'd fuddle the AI. :hmm:
I was wondering about that myself and we may have to up transport size to allow the AI to transport the new armies which I would allow to gain the many other benifits and besides I have always felt the ships should be able to transport more than they do esp. with their slow speeds. Very good comment and I would like to here more on this.......dread:goodjob:
 
Originally posted by cymru_man
Dradknought mentions armies with ten units in them. Even the modern transport only has 8 spaces. I suppose you could modify that though...
Yes we would have to adjust ship transport across the board to support armies but to save the movement times and have a better AI it is well worth it and you wouldnt need as many transports. Hey THE TWO TOWERS is here yeah..........dread:goodjob:
 
At the risk of spam...
Im gonna see that tomorrow dread!! [party]
Released today in uk yay!!

ON TOPIC (i.e. something to post that'll let me get away with the above in front of chieftess)

I like the idea, Its sounds like it'd make sense historically, and cut down on weird results by increasing HPs. Defending cities would be fun, you'd need an army. Hold on, then you'd need lots of armies to attack the city. Hold on, imagine a size 13 metrop, with 3 defensive armies with 4 mech inf in each, fortified, across a river,

I think I'll go and lie down:eek: :eek:
 
The new transports are working fine with the AI ,you just have to update all the ships..........dread:goodjob:
 
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