Spartan_X
Chieftain
Which would you consider it/them to be? For me, I think the prize for most useless is a tie between the Parthenon and Borobudur
Most useless wonders in game
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Spartan_X
Chieftain
^^ You're right, that's a pretty useless wonder too
danaphanous
religious fanatic
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Could you explain your reasoning? I actually like both those wonders and consider them pretty good.
My reasoning:
Parthenon: low on AI priority list, you can get it on immortal, and even Deity if you want. A free early social policy is easily worth the build cost, and the early GS point means an extra scientist. It's a great wonder for SV
Borabadur: I never try to get it on Deity because the AI love it too much but the wonder itself is great if you have a faith shortage and I used to build it regularly emperor and below. 3 free missionaries to strategically spread your faith to several other empires early means you never have to build a normal missionaries again and put the AI on the religious defensive. it saves you a lot of faith this way and gives you 5 more fpt. It is far more useful then Mosque of Jenne to me as I'm not gonna be spamming tons of my own missionaries very often, I prefer to use my faith for something more constructive like buying buildings, and later great people. Too many early missionaries and you give up these things. For the cost of the hammers on the wonder I can get my religion spread all over very quickly and never have to spend my own faith for it.
I think you have confused Parthenon (+4 culture and 1 Great Work of Art slot, plus a free Great Work of Art to fill that slot and later used to help with a theming bonus in a multi-slot building or wonder) with Oracle (1 free social policy, +3 culture and +1 GS point per turn). Both cost 250 hammers.
Oracle is great, and Parthenon is a solid wonder, so I would disagree with the OP on that score.
I would generally agree with your assessment of Borobudur -- three missionaries is minimum 600 faith saved, plus another 5 faith per turn. Assume another 150 turns to finish the game, that's 750 faith, or a total of over 1300 faith generated/saved by that wonder. Not bad for 300 hammers (as a point of comparison, to generate just 5 faith you would need 2 temples and a shrine, costing 240 hammers in total). Biggest issue is finding time in your holy city's build order to fit it in.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
Parthenon is a great wonder. Very much like it. Now Angkor Wat though? That's some hot garbage.
inthesomeday
Immortan
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Angkor, Great Firewall, Terracotta, Pentagon, Cristo, Statue of Zeus, Kremlin's actual like effect
Terracotta. I would get a 1 copy of every unique unit at the time I have nothing. If I'd get an X-Com, Stealth, tank, battleship, sure, but a spear and an archer ... really 
... but AI likes it. And this is good for me. It means while AI wastes hammers on Terracotta I can get something else. Dunno Oracle. I watched what AI is doing, and funny thing is, I/we/players get Oracle or Pyramids, because AI is busy with Terracotta.
I guess no WW is "useless"
... but AI likes it. And this is good for me. It means while AI wastes hammers on Terracotta I can get something else. Dunno Oracle. I watched what AI is doing, and funny thing is, I/we/players get Oracle or Pyramids, because AI is busy with Terracotta.
I guess no WW is "useless"
Spartan_X
Chieftain
Yes, I am sorry i did not. I consider the Parthenon to not be good because unless you are going for a culture victory, there is no other reason than that to build it. Borobudur is just 3 free missionaries... rather pathetic I think. if it was a Great prophet i would consider it - but I believe Hagia Sophia is granding one, so you couldn't have two WW doing the same thing.
Pentagon is probably the least useful wonder imo. Comes too late in the game for upgrading costs to matter. In general though a lot of late wonders are bad since there's not enough time to make use of said wonder.
Parthenon is okay because it's basically +6 culture from early game onward. Old Stonehenge used to be +6 culture around the same time period and it was pretty useful imo.
Borobudor is not super useful to me, but I generally don't focus very hard on religion anyway. If you missed out on Stonehenge and want another big source of faith, I guess you can't go wrong with Borobudur.
I'm pretty curious about ppl saying Angkor Wat being bad though. Maybe it's a bit too late, but it reduces both the culture cost and the gold cost for getting new tiles, so it basically speeds up your cities' expansion right?
Parthenon is okay because it's basically +6 culture from early game onward. Old Stonehenge used to be +6 culture around the same time period and it was pretty useful imo.
Borobudor is not super useful to me, but I generally don't focus very hard on religion anyway. If you missed out on Stonehenge and want another big source of faith, I guess you can't go wrong with Borobudur.
I'm pretty curious about ppl saying Angkor Wat being bad though. Maybe it's a bit too late, but it reduces both the culture cost and the gold cost for getting new tiles, so it basically speeds up your cities' expansion right?
Acken
Deity
adsin15
Warlord
Haghia Sophia, Borobordur, the Kremlin is garbage for a late game wonder and double garbage for a Ideology Specific Wonder. State of Liberty and Pora are ridiculously better.
Terracotta army...you gotta have a large army in the first place for it to be useful...but if you have a large army your production and infastructure are probably terrible meaning it will take 26 turns or something to build it and you will never get it.
If you focus on your cities and getting production to build it in a reasonable amount of time...you won't have an army worthy of doubling.
Terracotta army...you gotta have a large army in the first place for it to be useful...but if you have a large army your production and infastructure are probably terrible meaning it will take 26 turns or something to build it and you will never get it.
If you focus on your cities and getting production to build it in a reasonable amount of time...you won't have an army worthy of doubling.
adsin15
Warlord
Great Firewall is annoying because it's terrible but you HAVE to build it if you are going for Culture vic...not because it helps you but to prevent the AI from building it and negating your Internet Bonus.
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
Angkor Wat is hot garbage, that's a great way to put it. If it had just given you a Wat for free... (NQMod makes it do this, last I checked)
I tried to use Terra Cotta one time to nab a City State in MP that was blocking my plans for world domination, it was timed all nice and I got all six units. Terrain still stopped me from fielding any power (hill jungles) and I even lost the capping turn to the damage roll which set me back some 3 turns.
The usual consequence of crippled happiness ensued. I still find it hard to believe this wonder is bad. FilthyRobot builds it...
Borobudur is overpowered, only I never manage to play in a way that makes Missionaries helpful... I get my spread on early and with the right targets and then my passive enables the cruise control for cool .
I think Cerilis makes the best argument.
I tried to use Terra Cotta one time to nab a City State in MP that was blocking my plans for world domination, it was timed all nice and I got all six units. Terrain still stopped me from fielding any power (hill jungles) and I even lost the capping turn to the damage roll which set me back some 3 turns.
The usual consequence of crippled happiness ensued. I still find it hard to believe this wonder is bad. FilthyRobot builds it...
Borobudur is overpowered, only I never manage to play in a way that makes Missionaries helpful... I get my spread on early and with the right targets and then my passive enables the cruise control for cool .
I think Cerilis makes the best argument.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
Parthenon is good for any VC, as the culture helps fill out Rationalism for all peaceful VCs, which essentially means culture gets converted into science, while it helps you with getting done Commerce if you are going for a domination victory (in which case you'll most likely annex it, not steal it. still a decent steal imo).
inthesomeday
Immortan
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In MP the Parthenon usually goes in ~T 90 range, which is a fair amount after you get D & P (quick speed). It's a great wonder because it's +6 culture and +2 tourism, and when everyone is saving every artistic GP besides musicians to bulb later it can mean a lot of ideology happiness saved. Plus the early culture is super nice, it gives over the course of the game almost as much total culture as Oracle (4 x turns + ~175 vs. 6 x turns) as well as providing usually at least exotic over other players, which is good for ideologies later.
I forgot about CN Tower, which is also terrible. There's probably others I'm forgetting for never having built them BECAUSE they're terrible.
I forgot about CN Tower, which is also terrible. There's probably others I'm forgetting for never having built them BECAUSE they're terrible.
Acken
Deity
Late game wonders suffer the same fate as late game buildings. Very few of them are useful when the victory is less than 30 turns away. But I agree Cristo, CN and the like are really extra bad.
inthesomeday
Immortan
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Hubble's really good, and it's late game. It's because it does exactly what you need late game, which is give free scientist. Prora's arguably late game, as is Statue, and yet they're both some of the best in the game.
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